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Author Topic: NASA Space Launch System (SLS)  (Read 76274 times)

Offline Byeman

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Re: NASA Space Launch System (SLS)
« Reply #225 on: March 22, 2017, 06:53:53 am »

Opinion. A wrong opinion, sad, small minded and doomed to extinction, but opinion nonetheless.

[/quote]

Wrong again and shows a sad, small minded person who has a reading comprehensive problem.   I said nothing about humanity.  Only the US government.  Other people and organizations can do what they want.  The job of the US gov't is to take care of it citizens on earth and not elsewhere.

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: NASA Space Launch System (SLS)
« Reply #226 on: March 22, 2017, 08:34:39 am »
  Because Mars is made of dirt and will be constant importer of goods, it will be nothing but a drag on the mother country.

Just like a baby.

Quote
And hence because propulsion technology is limited and will take months, it won't really help in creating commerce.

Yes, because if the Internet has taught us anything, it's that there's no money to be made in anything that can't be shipped in a cardboard box.
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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: NASA Space Launch System (SLS)
« Reply #227 on: March 22, 2017, 08:48:30 am »
  The job of the US gov't is to take care of it citizens on earth and not elsewhere.

The job of the US government (Article I, section 8 of the U. S. Constitution) is:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Expanding the United States out into space will provide not only economic and military benefits to the United States (note how there are no physical resources located in LEO to geosynchronous orbit there to ship back to Earth for direct profit, yet nobody seems to complain much that the US government has sent thousands of spacecraft that have benefited the US and its people directly), but will also make the United States virtually *immortal.* Compared to *not* expanding, and thus ensuring that the US sooner or later comes to an end, official US colonization efforts are *clearly* well within the "provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States" function of the government.

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Offline Byeman

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Re: NASA Space Launch System (SLS)
« Reply #228 on: March 22, 2017, 09:21:25 am »

Expanding the United States out into space will provide not only economic and military benefits to the United States (note how there are no physical resources located in LEO to geosynchronous orbit there to ship back to Earth for direct profit, yet nobody seems to complain much that the US government has sent thousands of spacecraft that have benefited the US and its people directly),

Spacecraft are not people

Offline Byeman

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Re: NASA Space Launch System (SLS)
« Reply #229 on: March 22, 2017, 09:23:49 am »

Yes, because if the Internet has taught us anything, it's that there's no money to be made in anything that can't be shipped in a cardboard box.

Thanks, you made my point, if doesn't have quick delivery, it is there is no money in it.

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: NASA Space Launch System (SLS)
« Reply #230 on: March 22, 2017, 02:43:28 pm »

Yes, because if the Internet has taught us anything, it's that there's no money to be made in anything that can't be shipped in a cardboard box.

Thanks, you made my point, if doesn't have quick delivery, it is there is no money in it.

A few points:
1: There are lots of things the US FedGuv is terrible at. Doing things collectively that people can and should do themselves - healthcare, charity, retirement, moral policing and so on - have all been nightmarish unkillable disasters. But there are several things the FedGuv *has* been good at... investment in science, technology and infrastructure primarily. NASA, and the NACA before it, were spectacular aids in developing and driving the aeronautical industry.

2: the Internet: again, it bolsters *my* point. It was a government effort begun in the 1960's. And it wasn't until the 1990's that private industry started making money hand over fist from the internet.

So: history has shown that things can work really, really well when the government is involved in driving technological investment and infrastructure construction. No company would have gone ahead and created the transcontinental railroad, transcontinental air travel or the interstate highway system if the FedGuv wasn't shoveling money into the early stages. Once the projects were up and running, privatization was possible and often worked pretty well... privately run highways are apparently some of the best maintained in the West, privatized Social Security is vastly better then the current government mandated Ponzi scheme. But for many major projects, to get over the hump requires an input of capital risk that most companies simply can't sustain.

If installing a successful (self sustaining, capable of growth and survival on its own) colony on Mars was known to take ten billion dollars per year for forty years, no company could or would even bother to try. Because they simply don't have that kind of money to risk in the first place. But the US FedGuv? Ten billion a year is literally chump change for the Feds. Forty years of it is substantially less than will be squandered this year on social welfare programs that not only won't add to the economy, they'll actively promote a system that *drags* on the economy.

If Weyland-Yutani, SpaceX, Drax Industries, Blue Sun or some other major megacorp goes ahead and successfully creates off-world colonies, good for them. But those colonies will be beholden to those megacorps, not to the US. They will be populated by the people the megacorp decided to send. Their culture, language, beliefs and so on may well have absolutely nothing to do with those of the US. Which is again fine... but that colony does *not* aid the defense or general welfare of the United States. If you want to defend the US, you need Americans.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 10:52:58 am by Orionblamblam »
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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: NASA Space Launch System (SLS)
« Reply #231 on: March 22, 2017, 02:49:35 pm »

Expanding the United States out into space will provide not only economic and military benefits to the United States (note how there are no physical resources located in LEO to geosynchronous orbit there to ship back to Earth for direct profit, yet nobody seems to complain much that the US government has sent thousands of spacecraft that have benefited the US and its people directly),

Spacecraft are not people

Indeed they are not. Spacecraft can't make babies or have loyalties. Thus, eventually you need to start sending people.

But you of course missed - or at least avoided - the point. You said that if Mars has no physical resources to ship back to Earth, there'd be nothing to gain economically by going there. Well, there's nothing to mine in geosynchronous... except for information. What do you think the Martians will provide in abundance? Information. Information that will materially improve life on Earth. As I've pointed out and you've ignored, Martians will *need* to be innovative in ways Terrans need not be. And yet those innovations will be damned useful back here. Look at the history of NASA technologies and spinoffs.
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And so the endless circle of life comes to an end, meaningless and grim. Why did they live, and why did they die? No reason. Two hundred million years of evolution snuffed out, for in the end Nature is horrific and teaches us nothing

Offline Byeman

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Re: NASA Space Launch System (SLS)
« Reply #232 on: March 23, 2017, 07:04:42 am »
If you want to defend the US, you need Americans.

Lunar and Mars colonies won't help in the defense of the US.

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: NASA Space Launch System (SLS)
« Reply #233 on: March 23, 2017, 09:32:03 am »
If you want to defend the US, you need Americans.

Lunar and Mars colonies won't help in the defense of the US.

I have to wonder if you are being intentionally obtuse for some reason, especially considering that this has been explained to you already. But, fine, I'll play along:

1: The existence of US-loyal, US-derived extraterrestrial colonies will provide for the US defense because they will be sources of advanced technology. The propulsion systems alone developed to make transit to and from the colonies will aid in planetary and national defense.

2: The existence of self sustaining extraterrestrial US colonies will aid in defense of the US by simply being bits of the US physically separated from the US. If the Putinate decides to launch nuclear Armageddon and destroys all life on Earth, there's a chance that the off world colonies will survive and keep going. The US will survive. A sizable asteroid strike off the eastern seaboard could conceivably destroy the original 13 States but if the western half of the US survive, the US survives. Same principle applies with new colonies. When the US expands to Alpha Centauri and beyond, the sun could *explode* and the US will survive.
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Offline bobbymike

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Re: NASA Space Launch System (SLS)
« Reply #234 on: March 23, 2017, 12:29:24 pm »
If you want to defend the US, you need Americans.

Lunar and Mars colonies won't help in the defense of the US.

I have to wonder if you are being intentionally obtuse for some reason, especially considering that this has been explained to you already. But, fine, I'll play along:

1: The existence of US-loyal, US-derived extraterrestrial colonies will provide for the US defense because they will be sources of advanced technology. The propulsion systems alone developed to make transit to and from the colonies will aid in planetary and national defense.

2: The existence of self sustaining extraterrestrial US colonies will aid in defense of the US by simply being bits of the US physically separated from the US. If the Putinate decides to launch nuclear Armageddon and destroys all life on Earth, there's a chance that the off world colonies will survive and keep going. The US will survive. A sizable asteroid strike off the eastern seaboard could conceivably destroy the original 13 States but if the western half of the US survive, the US survives. Same principle applies with new colonies. When the US expands to Alpha Centauri and beyond, the sun could *explode* and the US will survive.
Agree completely but for me the macro-issue is always "we have to get off this planet" We know life ending events can happen and humanity must survive and that will only be among the stars.
"I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death." - Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: NASA Space Launch System (SLS)
« Reply #235 on: March 23, 2017, 12:50:18 pm »

Agree completely but for me the macro-issue is always "we have to get off this planet" We know life ending events can happen and humanity must survive and that will only be among the stars.

One might argue that things are getting slightly off topic... but then, who cares. Assuming no nuclear apocalypse or zombie outbreak or major solar flare or other such civilization-crashing event, it's looking increasingly likely that mankind is finally, at last, if slowly, getting around to looking at moving off-world. And that's great. Any form of off-world civilization is better than no off world civilization. But since moving off world is a capability open to any sizable government, the question starts to become what sort of civilization we want off world. British colonies on Mars? Great. Canadians on Ceres? Fine. Americans controlling the Oort cloud? Good. The UN having so much as an orbiting Kwik-E-Mart? No. No, no, no, nonononono. Because the UN provides an equal voice to Australia as it does to North Korea; India as to Syria; Japan as to Cuba, the UN is inappropriate as a promulgator of human civilization. There are some civilizations that reasonable people should be able to agree we don't want owning the stars. The Nazis. The Commies. McDonalds. The Caliphate.

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Offline Triton

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Re: NASA Space Launch System (SLS)
« Reply #236 on: March 23, 2017, 02:06:47 pm »
You forgot about the "Make America Great Again" flag-waving propaganda value of a manned mission to a previously unvisited astronomical body. Not much propaganda value in a manned return to the Moon or an manned asteroid rendezvous. Mars is a bigger propaganda splash.

Online Mat Parry

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Re: NASA Space Launch System (SLS)
« Reply #237 on: March 23, 2017, 02:49:16 pm »
But probably unattainable within the reign of a single administration...

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: NASA Space Launch System (SLS)
« Reply #238 on: March 23, 2017, 03:10:14 pm »
Not much propaganda value in a manned return to the Moon or an manned asteroid rendezvous.

Kinda hard to say, since that's unexplored territory. But one thing that seems likely is that if someone other than the US gets back to the Mon or to an asteroid before the US, the *negative* propaganda value within the US could be substantial. It just might be an incentive to move on to the *next* objective, like the Soviets launching Sputnik and Gagarin spurred the US to greater things. Or it might be a general depressant to the national mood, something that would surprise me not at all.
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Offline sferrin

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Re: NASA Space Launch System (SLS)
« Reply #239 on: March 23, 2017, 04:39:48 pm »
You forgot about the "Make America Great Again" flag-waving propaganda value of a manned mission to a previously unvisited astronomical body. Not much propaganda value in a manned return to the Moon or an manned asteroid rendezvous. Mars is a bigger propaganda splash.

Who cares if it has a side-benefit of a propaganda boost?   ::)
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