Register here

Author Topic: Daimler Motoren-Gesellschaft  (Read 3644 times)

Offline Maveric

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1708
  • Fight for yor Right!
Daimler Motoren-Gesellschaft
« on: May 16, 2011, 07:48:47 am »
Hi all,

L.   1   ???
L.   2   ???
L.   3   ???
L.   4   ???
L.   5   ???
L.   6  (D.I)  Fighter 1917
L.   7   ???
L.   8  (CL.I)  Battle plane  1917
L.   9  (D.II)  Fighter  1918
L. 10   ???
L. 11  Fighter  1918
L. 12   ???
L. 13   ???
L. 14  Fighter  1918
L. 15  Light aircraft (Start of the numbering system of Klemm)

Without L-Number:
G. I  Bomber  1915  (R.I)
G. II  Bomber  1916  (R.II)
G. III  Bomber  1917

Thanks Maveric
I see you on the dark side of the moon.

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 21738
Re: Daimler Motoren-Gesellschaft
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2011, 08:21:46 am »
Hi Maveric;

the L.15 was not directly related to Klemm,but to the company was called;
Daimler-Werke Atkien-Gesellschaft of early 1920s.Later in 1927,the company
became Leichtflugzuegbau Klemm.


No 1  was a biplane of 1910.
No 3  was a monoplane of 1913.

Offline Maveric

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1708
  • Fight for yor Right!
Re: Daimler Motoren-Gesellschaft
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2011, 10:32:07 am »
Hi Maveric;

the L.15 was not directly related to Klemm,but to the company was called;
Daimler-Werke Atkien-Gesellschaft of early 1920s.Later in 1927,the company
became Leichtflugzuegbau Klemm.


No 1  was a biplane of 1910.
No 3  was a monoplane of 1913.

Hi hesham,

do you have a source for the Biplane and the Monoplane. I can´t find them in none of my source´s.

Thanks Maveric
I see you on the dark side of the moon.

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 21738
Re: Daimler Motoren-Gesellschaft
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2016, 05:29:53 am »
Hi,

the Daimler-Lutskoy No.1 was a monoplane of 1909,No.2 was a biplane of 1910 and
No.3 was a monoplane of 1913,the designer B.G. Lutskoy was a Russian and Daimler
built his early airplanes,maybe they are L-1,L-2 & L-3 ?.

http://chezpeps.free.fr/0/pre-1914/01-1_50-copy_paste_Breguet-Pre-1914-Aircraft-Challenge.html

Offline Apophenia

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2035
Re: Daimler Motoren-Gesellschaft
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2016, 11:55:01 am »

Boris Lutsky was indeed a Russian but he designed aircraft for VB Shavrov, Rumpler, and Daimler. (He was employed at Daimler-Marienfelde until 1901 when he was hired by Grigory Lessner to help license-build Daimler trucks in Russia.)

Transliterations also get confusing. Луцкой is given as Lutsky, Lutskii, Lutskoi, Lutskoy, or Loutzkoy!

On company names ...

Daimler-Motoren-Gesellschaft Werke - 1910-1919
Daimler-Werke Atkiengesellschaft - 1919-Dec 1926
Leichtflugzeugbau Klemm GmbH - 1927-1938
Klemm Flugzeugbau Halle/Saale GmbH - 1934-1937
Hanns Klemm Flugzeugbau - 1938-Nov 1957

Offline Tuizentfloot

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 204
Re: Daimler Motoren-Gesellschaft
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2016, 12:17:02 pm »
I think the designations L1, L2 and L3 for the Loutzkoy types are doubtful.

Only the first Loutzkoy plane was built by Daimler (even if there is a different opinion), and it was not a plane conceived by Daimler, but designed and ordered by Loutzkoy.

Publications about Loutzkoy are sometimes contradictory (and have always been since the 1910's).

The Russian engineer Boris Lutsky or Lutskoy (Борис Григорьевич Луцкий/Луцкой - both variants are correct) was in the first place occupied with engine and automobile construction, and worked at the end of the 19 th - beginning of the 20th century for a number of German companies, including Argus and Daimler. His German-style name was  Boris Loutzkoy (and even Boris von Loutzkoy).

Due to his involvement in Argus and Daimler engines Loutzkoy came also to aviation around 1908-09.

From different sources (see below) I came to the following:
There were two original Loutzkoy types, and a third prepared by Loutzkoy for a flight from Berlin to St. Petersburg.

1. The 1909-10 unsuccesful twin-engined monoplane, called in Russian Геликоплан, an early VTOL-plane conceived by Loutzkoy and built by Daimler. Only Lange says it was built by Aeroplan-Fabrik Max Schuler in Berlin…

2. The 1912 twin-engined Rumpler-Loutzkoy Taube, built by Rumpler. Only Sobolev says Daimler participated in the building ("при участии фирмы Даймлер")...

3. The 1913 single engined Taube reengined by Loutzkoy for the flight to St. Petersburg.

Any additions welcome!

Sources:

  • Шавров В.Б., История конструкций самолетов в СССР до 1938г. (1986, 3th ed.), p. 130-133
    Соболев Д.А., "Изобретатель Луцкой", Крылья Родины, 1994 № 2, p. 14
    Kranzhoff J.A., Edmund Rumpler - Wegbereiter der industriellen Flugzeugfertigung (2004), p. 180-183
    Lange B., Typenhandbuch der deutschen Luftfahrttechnik (1986), p. 34 and 81
    And a number of Russian internetsites.

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 21738
Re: Daimler Motoren-Gesellschaft
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2016, 02:15:57 pm »
Thank you my dear Tuizentfloot,

but also there is many sources,said that; the Lutsky No.2 was also built Daimler;

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41669

Offline Tuizentfloot

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 204
Re: Daimler Motoren-Gesellschaft
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2016, 03:18:03 pm »
As does Sobolev in his article in Kryl'ya Rodiny, and he is a reliable aviation historian. There are too many uncertainties and contradictions about Loutzkoy...

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 21738
Re: Daimler Motoren-Gesellschaft
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2016, 04:31:51 pm »
My dear Tuizentfloot,

This Infos came from Milan Javorsky.

Offline Tuizentfloot

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 204
Re: Daimler Motoren-Gesellschaft
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2016, 09:10:56 am »
I found a website of Milan Javorsky, but it is very general. Indeed it just says that the second Loutzkoy was built by Daimler, as does many others say (and mostly copied from each other).

Many details of Loutzkoy's planes remain unclear, including where they were built. I made the following comparison concerning the builders between the four printed sources I consulted:

1910 Gelikoplan
   Shavrov: Daimler
   Sobolev: Daimler
   Kranzhoff: Daimler
   Lange: Schüler

1912 Twin Taube
   Shavrov: -
   Sobolev: Daimler
   Kranzhoff: Rumpler
   Lange: Rumpler

1912 St. Petersburg Taube
   Shavrov: -
   Sobolev: -
   Kranzhoff: -
   Lange: -

Even Boris Loutzkoy himself has a mysterious side. Working in Germany at the beginning of WW I he was arrested as a citizen of an hostile country. His whereabouts after the war are not well-known. Usually it is said he died in or around 1920 either in Germany or in Russia. But in the twenties and thirties a number of patents were still delivered to him. And his names figures until 1943 in the Berlin address books. After 1943 no more traces of Loutzkoy are found, so probably he died around the end of WW II.

Offline Apophenia

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2035
Re: Daimler Motoren-Gesellschaft
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2016, 12:08:42 pm »
Great stuff ... thanks Tuizentfloot  :)