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Author Topic: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program  (Read 7016 times)

Offline Wurger

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"Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« on: April 22, 2011, 08:18:57 am »
Hi guys,

this interesting program was iniciated by the RLM when the Bomber-B program was antecipated to be a failure. It must be described as a "workhorse" or a multipurpose aircraft. Here I post some of the tenders, e.g. the Heinkel P.1065/1055 and the Blohm&Voss P.163. The Dornier contestant was the Do 417. Does anyone know more competitors to this particular program?

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2011, 08:33:17 am »
The Blohm & Voss proposal would have been 'interesting', from an aircrew point of view.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 12:43:43 pm by Grey Havoc »
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Offline hesham

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2011, 08:34:59 am »
Hi guys,

this interesting program was iniciated by the RLM when the Bomber-B program was antecipated to be a failure. It must be described as a "workhorse" or a multipurpose aircraft. Here I post some of the tenders, e.g. the Heinkel P.1065/1055 and the Blohm&Voss P.163. The Dornier contestant was the Do 417. Does anyone know more competitors to this particular program?

Hi,

may be you meant Dornier Do.317,the Dornier Do.417 is not right.

Offline Wurger

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2011, 09:06:12 am »
Hello Hesham,

thanks for joining up. No, I am quite correct. The Dornier Do 417 was a real project, cited and published by Nowarra or Grihel. Please see our own thread:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4781.0/highlight,dornier+do+417.html

Anything to add, ladds? It would be most welcomed.

Offline hesham

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2013, 07:14:32 am »
My dear Wurger,

here is an artist drawing to the Heinkel P.1055.
http://avionica.jigsy.com/informaciones



Also the Junkers Ju-88E was involved,later called Ju-188 (the winner).
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 07:53:54 am by hesham »

Offline Avimimus

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2013, 08:39:15 am »
Any idea what the twin 20mm were supposed to do on the P.1055?

The Blohm & Voss proposal would have been 'interesting', from an aircrew point of view.

Well, it was abandoned after they created add a second crew pod to the wing-tip of a BV-141 and decided it was just a very bad idea.

Offline kiradog

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2013, 09:08:19 am »
I,ve got the whole project proposal from Blohm und Voss.  Will post images when I get a chance
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 08:21:18 am by kiradog »

Offline Wurger

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2013, 03:22:52 pm »
I just can`t wait for that, Gary!
 

Offline Antonio

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2013, 02:08:56 am »
Quote
I,ve got the whole project proposal from Blohm und Voss.  Will post images when I get a chance

Please, please.

Offline LowObservable

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2013, 01:30:36 pm »
The advantage of the B+V design, from the crew's viewpoint, is that any fighter pilot's going to aim for the middle bit.

Offline kiradog

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2013, 02:53:20 pm »
Add some of the images I promised above.  More to follow
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 03:56:42 pm by kiradog »

Offline Wurger

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2013, 07:21:50 am »
Many, many thanks for this great stuff, Gary. Boy, I love our hobby!!!!

Offline kiradog

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2013, 08:23:56 am »
Thanx,  Blohm und Voss projects are my fav.

Posted last couple images

The entire document contains about 157 pages which are mostly text and charts.


Gary


Offline Wurger

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2013, 02:42:19 pm »
Hi Gary,

please feel free to post anything you have  ;D on german WW2 projects, not necessarily by B&V ;) . Thanks once again.

Offline sgeorges4

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2018, 05:47:43 am »
sorry for the up,but do you have some other document about the heinkel P.1055 please?

Offline riggerrob

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2018, 07:17:58 pm »
Those MGs on wing tips have great arcs of fire, but I suspect that rolling manuvers would make gunners airsick with all the changes in Gravity.

Offline sienar

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2018, 09:36:36 pm »
Those MGs on wing tips have great arcs of fire, but I suspect that rolling manuvers would make gunners airsick with all the changes in Gravity.

Not more so than normal. There were similar concerns with the P-82 and it was found that the pilot/co-pilot didn't experience any undue effects because of the off center seating arrangement.

Offline cluttonfred

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2018, 05:39:17 am »
The Luft46.com page on this design says this about the configuration, "In order to test this unconventional arrangement, the asymmetrical BV 141 had a second cockpit installed on the wingtip with the controls coupled to those in the main cockpit. This led to the discovery that this arrangement warranted no further development.:  Does anyone have any pics if and/or other information on that modified BV.141?

Source:  http://www.luft46.com/bv/bvp163.html
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Offline Jemiba

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2018, 10:10:28 am »
In the FRX Magazine N 68 there's an article written by U.W.Jack (member here, too) just about this theme, including a
reconstruction of that testbed.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 11:08:32 am by Jemiba »
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Offline rinkol

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2018, 10:41:56 am »
 "In order to test this unconventional arrangement, the asymmetrical BV 141 had a second cockpit installed on the wingtip with the controls coupled to those in the main cockpit. This led to the discovery that this arrangement warranted no further development."

It would seem that the frontal area would be at least as much as for a conventional twin engine design, at least if the DB 613 was used as the engine. Powerplant non-availability would have been a fundamental issue in any case.

Offline sienar

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2018, 11:52:16 am »
The Luft46.com page on this design says this about the configuration, "In order to test this unconventional arrangement, the asymmetrical BV 141 had a second cockpit installed on the wingtip with the controls coupled to those in the main cockpit. This led to the discovery that this arrangement warranted no further development.:  Does anyone have any pics if and/or other information on that modified BV.141?

Source:  http://www.luft46.com/bv/bvp163.html

There are a few more pics I've seen in various books, but can't remember which ones off the top of my head.

Offline alfakilo

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2018, 01:26:24 pm »
Those MGs on wing tips have great arcs of fire, but I suspect that rolling manuvers would make gunners airsick with all the changes in Gravity.

Quite possibly, but, if nothing else, it would have complicated their aiming problem.

The Luft46.com page on this design says this about the configuration, "In order to test this unconventional arrangement, the asymmetrical BV 141 had a second cockpit installed on the wingtip with the controls coupled to those in the main cockpit. This led to the discovery that this arrangement warranted no further development.

This makes me wonder what the test objectives were...to test an "unconventional arrangement", the designers imagined an even more unconventional arrangement.

Offline cluttonfred

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2018, 07:55:41 am »
Thanks for posting the test bed image.  It's odd to me that B&V even proposed the wingtip fuselage pod when the BV.141 layout with the pod just outside the propeller arc had already proven quite workable.  Two slim, fighter-like pods in positions similar to the BV.141 with two crew in each one would have minimized the effect of the seating off the centerline but still given the gunners clear arcs of fire.  The position of the horizontal tail and the types of turrets could have been adjusted to leave no blind spots.
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Offline alfakilo

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2018, 09:56:14 am »
Here is a link to a good explanation of the aerodynamic advantages of the asymmetric design:

http://www.nurflugel.com/Nurflugel/n_o_d/weird_01.htm

Offline iverson

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2018, 02:10:16 pm »
The Luft46.com page on this design says this about the configuration, "In order to test this unconventional arrangement, the asymmetrical BV 141 had a second cockpit installed on the wingtip with the controls coupled to those in the main cockpit. This led to the discovery that this arrangement warranted no further development.:  Does anyone have any pics if and/or other information on that modified BV.141?

Source:  http://www.luft46.com/bv/bvp163.html

There are a few more pics I've seen in various books, but can't remember which ones off the top of my head.

I've always assumed that this image was a fake made up using a smaller copy of the BV141 fuselage. It's hard for me to see how the structure of the normal wingtip--as the image appears to show--could be adjusted to work with an extra nacelle. Any ideas on the provenance of the picture?

Offline hole in the ground

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2018, 02:40:22 pm »
You might find that this variant just had extremely restricted speed and manoeuvre limits to keep g-loading down.

Offline sienar

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Re: "Arbeitsflugzeug" Program
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2018, 03:14:29 pm »
The Luft46.com page on this design says this about the configuration, "In order to test this unconventional arrangement, the asymmetrical BV 141 had a second cockpit installed on the wingtip with the controls coupled to those in the main cockpit. This led to the discovery that this arrangement warranted no further development.:  Does anyone have any pics if and/or other information on that modified BV.141?

Source:  http://www.luft46.com/bv/bvp163.html

There are a few more pics I've seen in various books, but can't remember which ones off the top of my head.

I've always assumed that this image was a fake made up using a smaller copy of the BV141 fuselage. It's hard for me to see how the structure of the normal wingtip--as the image appears to show--could be adjusted to work with an extra nacelle. Any ideas on the provenance of the picture?

Found the source pic, so it is definitely fake.