Register here

Author Topic: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5  (Read 43157 times)

Offline TinWing

  • What-if addict
  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 863
N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« on: April 29, 2006, 03:14:51 pm »

It was simple dropped by Northop's directive Tom Jones in favour of the far cheaper N-156 by the close of 1954.

Indeed the naval "T-tail" N-156 followed the Fang in 1954, followed by the more familiar N-156F of 1956 that lead to the F-5A.

I still haven't found an drawings or details on the original N-156. :(


Offline elmayerle

  • Aerospace Engineer
  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1204
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2006, 11:05:50 pm »
The earliest versions of the N-156 that have appeared in Northrop's published histories differ from later versions primarily in having a taller and narrower swept vertical fin.  I've never seen one with a T-tail though that doesn't mean there wasn't one.  To the best of my knowledge, the files from Northrop's design office for that period now reside across the runway at the Western Museum of Flgiht anad are, I believe, accessible when the museum is open.

I do believe that one purpose of the underslung engine configuration was to allow the usage of alternate engines without major redesign.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2006, 11:17:26 pm by elmayerle »

Offline TinWing

  • What-if addict
  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 863
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2006, 06:23:32 am »
The earliest versions of the N-156 that have appeared in Northrop's published histories differ from later versions primarily in having a taller and narrower swept vertical fin. 

The same sort of design evolution occurred with the Saab Gripen.  Saab suposedly claimed that the swept vertical tail was replaced by the broader, wider chord tail to accomodate more electronics - hardly the same reason could have applied to the N-156.

I wonder if there is a fundimental aerodynamic for the shift away from a swept vertical tail?

Offline elmayerle

  • Aerospace Engineer
  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1204
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2006, 11:52:35 pm »
I wonder if there is a fundimental aerodynamic for the shift away from a swept vertical tail?

Well, I can't say for certain, but I find it interesting that on rather slower aircraft, your single engine Cessna's, the "square tails" on the early models appear to offer better controlability than the swept tails of later models (things learned while working on the small Cessnas).  I suspect the tails that the N-156 and Gripen ended up with are aerodynamically stiffer with their greater mean chord than swept tails and that the quarter-chord line still has adequate sweep for the necessary drag reduction.  Mind you, this is only informed speculation, but it would make sense to my mind.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 10:23:24 pm by elmayerle »

Offline TinWing

  • What-if addict
  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 863
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2006, 03:56:56 pm »

All the patents they mention I have.

Would you happen to have found the patent for the original N156?

It is easy to find the N156F and N156T patents. :)

Online Orionblamblam

  • Secret Projects Guru
  • Top Contributor
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 7071
    • Aerospace Projects Review
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2006, 07:09:16 pm »
Would you happen to have found the patent for the original N156?

Nope. However, I do have something of potential interest: a decent scan of a very bad photocopy of some extremely small drawings, from an old issue of Air International, Feb. 1977. It shows the evolution of the N-156, including one design (the PD-2706) which may be the T-tail I've seen people wonder about. The quality sucks, but this copy was made back when I was in high school, broke, and the library photocopier was an antique. If someone can get a better version of this *I'd* like to see it as well, including the other pages of the article.


[removed attachment - better scans later in topic - Admin]
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 02:21:01 am by PaulMM »
Aerospace Projects Review


And so the endless circle of life comes to an end, meaningless and grim. Why did they live, and why did they die? No reason. Two hundred million years of evolution snuffed out, for in the end Nature is horrific and teaches us nothing

Offline lark

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1771
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2006, 09:12:14 am »
Orionblam...

"A Classic comes of age" page 67-70 /A.Int-2/1977

If APR- Utah is still your address , the article will be
on your desk in bout ten days if you like...

Online Orionblamblam

  • Secret Projects Guru
  • Top Contributor
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 7071
    • Aerospace Projects Review
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2006, 10:29:38 am »
The address is still accurate. However, if you have an original of the magazine, scans of the pages would do me just fine. The only bits I'd be interested in high-rez, as opposed to just readible, are the bits I posted above... the drawings.
Aerospace Projects Review


And so the endless circle of life comes to an end, meaningless and grim. Why did they live, and why did they die? No reason. Two hundred million years of evolution snuffed out, for in the end Nature is horrific and teaches us nothing

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2006, 10:48:02 am »
I seem to recall lark doesn't have a scanner?

BTW lark I've got a spare one, if you live anywhere near London, UK you can have it for free.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline lark

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1771
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2006, 11:08:48 am »
Thanks for the very kind offer Overscan
but I'm somewhere on the Continent...

"Device" is planned for this Summer,so when the
days are about to shorten, the files will lengthen... :)

Offline elmayerle

  • Aerospace Engineer
  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1204
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2006, 08:43:20 pm »
If/when those drawing get scanned, I'd like a set too.  What would be nice is if drawings turned up, too, on the N-285B derivative for a USN supersonic trainer/light strike aircraft.   The original N-156 design couldn't maintain slow enough approach speeds for carrier landings, so they developed a new wing and a revised forward fuselage for better back seat visibility.  I wish I'd been able to copy the one brochure of that one that I've seen.

Online Orionblamblam

  • Secret Projects Guru
  • Top Contributor
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 7071
    • Aerospace Projects Review
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2006, 09:54:30 pm »
  What would be nice is if drawings turned up, too, on the N-285B derivative for a USN supersonic trainer/light strike aircraft. 

Bah. Boooooring. The N-156 derivative I want to see is the aerospace trainer. Rocket powered, meant to fly out of the sensible atmosphere for astronaut training. Somewhat like the NF-104, but apparently more integrated.
Aerospace Projects Review


And so the endless circle of life comes to an end, meaningless and grim. Why did they live, and why did they die? No reason. Two hundred million years of evolution snuffed out, for in the end Nature is horrific and teaches us nothing

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2006, 03:24:28 pm »
Fang to Freedom Fighter

March 1955: "Tally-ho" project, N-156TX . 2 x turbojets in underwing pods, mid-fuselage unswept wing, long one piece canopy over tandem seats, low set tailplane.

N-156NN Naval fighter. Not unlike Grumman Panther in configuration, engines brought into the fuselage with separate intakes on the sides of the fuselage. T-tail, full span flaps and provision for tractor type landing gear. November 1955, PD-2706.

1956: 7 configurations, 6 with designations. Known: PD-2821 (Jan), PD-2832 (March), PD-2879A (May), PD-2879B (October) PD-2879D (Dec).

PD-2789D became N-156T. New single seat design, designated N-156F, is the 7th configuration mentioned above without a PD- designation.

Source:

  • Jerry Scutts, Northrop F-5/F-20, Ian Allan Modern Combat Aircraft 25
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Online Orionblamblam

  • Secret Projects Guru
  • Top Contributor
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 7071
    • Aerospace Projects Review
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2006, 05:50:05 pm »
The ultimate N-156 development: the N-205B space trainer... Mach 3, 250,000+ feet. Sadly, no illustrations as yet.
Aerospace Projects Review


And so the endless circle of life comes to an end, meaningless and grim. Why did they live, and why did they die? No reason. Two hundred million years of evolution snuffed out, for in the end Nature is horrific and teaches us nothing

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2006, 06:32:43 pm »
Bigger versions of the N-156 studies. Best I could do from a photocopy- they are tiny, white on blue.



[removed attachment - better scans later in topic - Admin]
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 02:21:32 am by PaulMM »
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline TinWing

  • What-if addict
  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 863
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2006, 08:16:21 pm »
Bigger versions of the N-156 studies. Best I could do from a photocopy- they are tiny, white on blue.



Excellent quality.

Could PD-2706 depict the configuration of the T-tail, naval fighter that originally carried the N-156 designation?

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2006, 01:24:32 am »
[removed attachment - better scans later in topic - Admin]
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 02:22:03 am by PaulMM »
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2006, 01:25:33 am »
Last one - I seem to have missed 1 out, will check.

[edit - I didn't post the N-102 Fang drawing as better ones are available]


[removed attachment - better scans later in topic - Admin]
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 02:22:30 am by PaulMM »
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Online Orionblamblam

  • Secret Projects Guru
  • Top Contributor
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 7071
    • Aerospace Projects Review
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2006, 10:36:23 pm »
I've never heard of a V-tailed version of the Fang. Any other particulars on that design, Scott?

What ya see is what I got. It comes from page 173 of... some book or other. Photocopied back in the days when I was too poor to photocopy the books title page, and too lazy to scribble the title down.
Aerospace Projects Review


And so the endless circle of life comes to an end, meaningless and grim. Why did they live, and why did they die? No reason. Two hundred million years of evolution snuffed out, for in the end Nature is horrific and teaches us nothing

Offline boxkite

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 784
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2006, 01:11:50 pm »
Is anybody able to identify this Northrop light-weight fighter design from the mid-1950s?

SOURCE: Stevenson: The Pentagon Paradox (page 71)
CAPTION: During the mid-1950s, Northrop Corporation developed some proposals for lightweight fighters specifically designed to fly off the escort (CVE) carriers.

Offline Skybolt

  • Top Contributor
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 2288
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2006, 01:19:03 pm »
It's the Northrop N-156: two GE SJ-110s (J-85), Mach 2. It was, through the slightly modified N-156N, the forebear of the T-38 Talon (N-156T).

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2006, 01:20:32 pm »
Looks like this to me :)

« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 02:23:34 am by PaulMM »
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline TinWing

  • What-if addict
  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 863
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2006, 03:27:19 pm »
Is anybody able to identify this Northrop light-weight fighter design from the mid-1950s?

SOURCE: Stevenson: The Pentagon Paradox (page 71)
CAPTION: During the mid-1950s, Northrop Corporation developed some proposals for lightweight fighters specifically designed to fly off the escort (CVE) carriers.

Wow!

Thanks for the confirmation that the PD-2706 is indeed the lightweight fighter proposal made to the Navy, a year before the N-156 configuration was proposed to the USAF.

Offline pometablava

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 3306
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2006, 12:24:45 am »
There is an entry about the N-156 in the MiniDocavia

Offline elmayerle

  • Aerospace Engineer
  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1204
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2006, 01:10:46 am »
Does the Mini-Docavia have an entry on the N-285B?

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2006, 04:47:56 am »
Jerry Scutts confirms it in "Northrop F-5/F-20"

The light naval fighter study depicted above was N-165NN, emerging as PD-2706 in November 1955. It had a T-tail, full span trailing edge flaps and provision for a tractor type landing gear.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2006, 04:54:18 am »
I just realised that the odd looking 3 view in the Jerry Scutts book, P11 is actually the N-156F posted earlier- with the addition of wingtip missiles.  It has no caption in the book, I assumed it was a badly drawn F-5A. Will post later.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2006, 03:03:38 am »
N-156F with wingtip missiles.

Source:
Jerry Scutts: Modern Combat Aircraft 25 Northrop F-5/F-20, Ian Allan, 1986
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2006, 03:11:55 am »
Other F-5 projects:

N-156C
Camera nose, swappable for the standard nose, without losing gun armament

N-156D
Carrier version. Larger wing, more fuel, greater payload, strengthened arrestor gear. Offered in 1965 to the Australian Navy as N-285B (also offered to USN)

N-156E
Version using GE CF-700 aft fan engines, 6,800lb thrust.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline elmayerle

  • Aerospace Engineer
  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1204
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2006, 09:52:48 am »
Other F-5 projects:

N-156C
Camera nose, swappable for the standard nose, without losing gun armament

N-156D
Carrier version. Larger wing, more fuel, greater payload, strengthened arrestor gear. Offered in 1965 to the Australian Navy as N-285B (also offered to USN)

N-156E
Version using GE CF-700 aft fan engines, 6,800lb thrust.

N-156C did materialize as a RF-5A conversion (I seem to remember one of the F-5A kits out there  has the option).  N-285B was a development of the N-156D to meet USN objections to the original N-156D design; in addition to the larger wing et al., it included a stepped cockpit arrangement in the two-seat version.  I've seen the brochure once, if I could've copied it I would've, but I was in a very secure environment at the time and couldn't.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 10:01:19 pm by elmayerle »

Offline pometablava

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 3306
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2006, 06:31:58 am »
Quote
Does the Mini-Docavia have an entry on the N-285B?

There is no entry for it Evan, but there is an antry about the N-267 wich was an VTOL T-38 derivative for research purposes

Offline airman

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 1041
    • my blogs
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2008, 08:45:39 am »
Wonderful project of navalized version of F-5 !  :D  i like it ! :-* :-*
writers , bloggers , content-curators ,  music composer and passionate of militaria and uchronia

Offline fightingirish

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2058
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2010, 02:43:33 am »
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 02:26:31 am by PaulMM »
Slán,
fightingirish

Slán ist an Irish Gaelic word for Goodbye.  :)

Avatar:
McDonnell Douglas Model 225 painting by "The Artist" Michael Burke (Tavush) 2018, found at deviantart.com and at Secret Projects Forum » Research Topics » User Artwork » McDonnell Douglas Model 225 Painting

Offline Triton

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 9687
  • Donald McKelvy
    • Deep Blue to Wild Blue
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2011, 12:22:35 pm »
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 12:29:39 pm by Triton »

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2012, 01:59:21 am »
6 years later - better scans of the F-5 evolution from Air International, Feb 1977.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 02:06:31 am by PaulMM »
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2012, 02:09:37 am »
Rest...
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 02:19:09 am by PaulMM »
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2012, 02:56:31 am »
Note PD-2852 had a drooping nose for better visibility from the rear seat during takeoff and landing without increased frontal area - it was dropped as too complex and heavy.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline AeroFranz

  • Aerospace Engineer
  • Top Contributor
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 2076
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2012, 07:56:29 am »
Did PD-2812 have folding fins, that you know of? sure as hell gonna need a freakish landing gear, otherwise.
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2012, 10:49:48 am »
Yep, folding ventral, also dropped on complexity and weight grounds.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline Triton

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 9687
  • Donald McKelvy
    • Deep Blue to Wild Blue
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2012, 11:12:51 am »
Northrop RF-5E Tigereye reconnaissance aircraft in United States Air Force markings concept model found on eBay.

URL:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NORTHROP-R-F-5E-TIGEREYE-1-40-SCALE-COMPANY-MARKETING-PROMOTION-DESK-MODEL-/280944884453?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41699ebae5
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 11:19:27 am by Triton »

Offline Skyblazer

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 13244
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2012, 04:09:53 pm »
Uh?  :o Why a tail hook for a U.S.A.F. variant?!?

Offline aim9xray

  • Top Contributor
  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 454
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2012, 07:00:56 pm »
To better catch the arresting cable/chain at the departure end of the runway, of course.

Online Jemiba

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 7871
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2012, 12:04:23 am »
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Archibald

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2057
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2012, 01:34:40 am »
"the eyyyeeeee of the tigeeeeer" ta, tata, taaaa, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta taaaaaaaannn...
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Dassault#Affaires_

Offline Skyblazer

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 13244
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2012, 01:56:59 am »
To better catch the arresting cable/chain at the departure end of the runway, of course.

Even the F-22 has it

Thanks guys. I wasn't aware of that kind of appendix on Air Force aircraft.

Online Jemiba

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 7871
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2013, 11:59:38 am »
Proposal by Northrop of the N-156F as an all-weather system, using the Hughes Taran fire control
system and Nord Aviation missiles, designated "Rapiere", in the air-to-air role the AA.20 was envisaged,
for air-to-ground the AS.20 or AS.30.
(From Aviation Week June 1960, sorry for the low quality of the drawing, not much better in the article)
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Pioneer

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1541
  • Seek out and close with the enemy
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2013, 08:58:16 pm »
Proposal by Northrop of the N-156F as an all-weather system, using the Hughes Taran fire control
system and Nord Aviation missiles, designated "Rapiere", in the air-to-air role the AA.20 was envisaged,
for air-to-ground the AS.20 or AS.30.
(From Aviation Week June 1960, sorry for the low quality of the drawing, not much better in the article)
Very interesting find JamibaIt is sometimes overlooked that the U.S. military (and to some degree U.S. industry!) were impressed and influenced by some of these early 'compact' missile systems such as the SS.10, AS.20 missiles, for the Americans seemed to lack knowledge or interest in small tactical missiles for some time! Or could this just have been due to export potential of U.S. platforms to nations who preferred French weaponry ::)  Sorry to diverge off topic - but I can not say that I've heard of the
Quote
"Rapiere"
system, nor that of the air-to-air variant/adaption of the AS.20/AS.30 family!! :P I'll have to bring this up in the missile/rocket section of the Forum!! RegardsPioneer 
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
I am honored to be your brother.”

— Lt Col Ralph Honner DSO M

Offline toura

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 1179
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2013, 05:15:00 am »
Hi all
From the "docavia"

Online Jemiba

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 7871
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2013, 08:48:54 am »
Great find Paul, thank you !

@ Pioneer: I've just sent the article to the mail adress, I still had of you. If it didn't
get through, just give a sign.

It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Triton

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 9687
  • Donald McKelvy
    • Deep Blue to Wild Blue
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2013, 12:29:27 pm »
Model of Northrop N156F manufactured by Topping found on eBay.

URL:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TOPPING-MODEL-OF-NORTHROP-N156F-VTG-RARE-COND-VG-/121079641128?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c30e8b428

Might be of interest to a collector.

Online Jemiba

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 7871
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2013, 12:39:18 pm »
Always good to add the photo !  ;)
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline RAP

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 500
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2013, 06:36:47 pm »
Some early N156 drawings.  Sorry for poor quality, these came off old microfiche.  More to follow.

Offline RAP

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 500
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #52 on: June 23, 2013, 12:11:16 am »
N156 with Sparrow and Sidewinders.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2013, 01:39:08 am »
Really nice, I will try and do some cleanup.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline pometablava

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 3306
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2013, 02:48:08 am »
RAP,
Many thanks for sharing this extremely interesting drawing. Now, we have a pretty interesting collectio of Northrop designs to trace back the evolution of ideas about light supersonic fighter/trainer concept.

Offline Skyblazer

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 13244
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2013, 05:38:51 am »
Fantastic contribution, RAP, thanks a lot! Keep 'em comin'... ;)

Offline Tailspin Turtle

  • Naval Aviation Author
  • Top Contributor
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 678
    • U.S. Navy Aircraft History
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2013, 09:39:42 am »
RAP's drawings from microfilm are clearly for a carrier-based aircraft, showing the catapult attachment and the tailhook. The widely separated engines, however, would have probably been judged to be unacceptable to the Navy for the one-engine-inoperative situation. Hence the follow-on T-tail design with the engines in nacelles on the side of the fuselage.

Offline RAP

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 500
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #57 on: June 24, 2013, 08:28:01 pm »
Here is some info from the N-156 study these drawings came from. 


Introduction
This report is a brief analysis covering the performance of a supersonic lightweight aircraft especially adapted to operation from short airfields or small aircraft carriers.  Combat ceiling is 57,000ft, rate of climb at sea level of 46,000ft per minute, combat speed of M. 1.41 at 35,000ft. Take-off weight less that 10,000 lbs.  Planned powerplant General Electric X-104 equipped with afterburner.
Configuration utilizing nacelle mounted engines was selected because it affords (1) armament separation from engines; (2) good pressure recovery for the engines; (3) adequate moment of inertia about the roll axis for good dynamic stability; (4) airplane balance characteristics allowing long tail length for good longitudinal stability and low trim drag; (5) power plant flexibility is such that a prototype development can be started immediately with Armstrong Siddeley Viper, ASV-5 engines.


Armament
Fire control system- MK16 Mod 2 automatic lead computing system.  Two T160 20mm guns, 150 rounds each. Tip pods with 74 2in FFAR rockets or 38 2.75in FFAR rockets.  2 Sparrow or 4 sidewinder missiles.  Mark 12 special store.


Carrier Suitability
Suitable for CVA and CVL carriers.  Limited capacity of the catapults on escort carriers would require some modification in order to launch the N-156.  Two 1000lb JATO bottles could provide additional lift.


Lightweight Supersonic Trainer
Conversion of the basic fighter into a two-place, dual controlled, supersonic trainer will have approximately the same performance.  This would give the Navy a very versatile airplane that could be used for pilot training at supersonic speeds in level flight, multi-jet engine and instrument training, carrier indoctrination, VIP transportation and perhaps a two-place interceptor and/or ground support airplane.

Offline RAP

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 500
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2013, 12:11:33 pm »
More N-156 drawings.  Identified as Lightweight Navy Fighter-Interceptor.  Study dated 9/19/55.  Some info from the study:
Supersonic, extreme lightweight (10,100lbs) fighter.  Combat ceiling 61,100ft, M.1.51, combat radius 450 nautical miles. Designed specifically to operate off CVE-105 class carriers.  This class carrier could operate a squadron of 16 N-156's. 
Armament consisted of 2 Sidewinders in frangible tip pods. Alternate armament 48 (24 per wing tip pod) 2in Gimlet rockets.
Again, apologize for quality, all the info and drawings is coming off old microfilm.
This proposal was short-lived as the entire jeep carrier class was mothballed. Northrop: An Aeronautical History, p.174.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 07:46:26 pm by RAP »

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22023
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2013, 03:12:42 pm »
Amazing drawing RAP,


and the Nothrop PD-2681 is new for me,thank you for sharing.

Offline Petrus

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 494
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #60 on: June 30, 2013, 02:47:23 pm »
More N-156 drawings.  Identified as Lightweight Navy Fighter-Interceptor.  Study dated 9/19/55.  Some info from the study:
Supersonic, extreme lightweight (10,100lbs) fighter.  Combat ceiling 61,100ft, M.1.51, combat radius 450 nautical miles. Designed specifically to operate off CVE-105 class carriers.  This class carrier could operate a squadron of 16 N-156's. 
Armament consisted of 2 Sidewinders in frangible tip pods. Alternate armament 48 (24 per wing tip pod) 2in Gimlet rockets.
Again, apologize for quality, all the info and drawings is coming off old microfilm.
This proposal was short-lived as the entire jeep carrier class was mothballed. Northrop: An Aeronautical History, p.174.

Some question regarding this variant of N-156:
- What were its dimensions (what is in the microfilm is for me completely unreadable)?
- Was the radar in the nose a ranging radar or rather a seach radar?
- Was N-156 to be armed with guns?

Piotr

Offline RAP

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 500
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #61 on: July 01, 2013, 06:32:06 am »
Hi Petrus-
1) The microfilm is very hard to read.  The dimensions are approximately: wingspan 26ft, length 34ft, height 12ft.
2) The report does not specify any gun armament and it does not appear any are on the inboard drawing. 
3) In regards to the radar, again the report offers no specifics but the inboard drawing indicates it was a search radar.  Specific type is not identified (or at least not that I can read).
Hope this was helpful.

Offline RAP

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 500
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2013, 10:07:38 am »
N-156A- Supersonic USAF Trainer, Nov. 15, 1955.  Again, apologize for poor quality drawing.  Very old microfiche and tail end of drawing was 'blacked out', I assume by age and fading of the image.

Offline Skyblazer

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 13244
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2013, 01:39:03 pm »
May not be crystal clear, but it's wonderful stuff nonetheless, and I'm very grateful for these!  :)

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22023
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2013, 03:12:29 pm »
Great drawing RAP,


and that's Northrop PD-2706.

Offline Kadija_Man

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 1830
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #65 on: July 03, 2013, 06:55:25 am »
Some F-5Es had a fillet added to the front of their tails and others didn't.   Was it merely national choice or was there some other factor as to why it was chosen by some air forces and not others?

Offline RAP

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 500
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #66 on: July 05, 2013, 07:31:42 am »
The dorsal fin was optional and can be seen on both F-5E's and F's. It improved directional stability by increasing keel area.  Countries that had this fitted were:  Brazil, Chile, Indonesia, Kenya, Mexico, Morocco, Singapore, Sudan and Tunisia.

Offline BillRo

  • Top Contributor
  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #67 on: July 05, 2013, 05:03:45 pm »
I had forgotten about this mod (after I left the program) but these pix of Brazilian F-5Es are interesting.

Offline RAP

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 500
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #68 on: July 05, 2013, 09:13:25 pm »
Comparison photos of two N-156F mock-ups, almost the F-5A.  Note differences in nose, tail, landing gear. The first photo is dated 3/27/57, don't have a date for the second photo.

Online Sundog

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2485
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2013, 02:15:12 am »
The dorsal fin was optional and can be seen on both F-5E's and F's. It improved directional stability by increasing keel area.  Countries that had this fitted were:  Brazil, Chile, Indonesia, Kenya, Mexico, Morocco, Singapore, Sudan and Tunisia.

It does increase the area a little, but what it really does is act like a "strake" for the vertical tail. As the aircraft yaws, you'll get a vortex off of it on the leeward side, making the vertical tail more effective in yaw.

Offline Kadija_Man

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 1830
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2013, 03:20:18 am »
I wonder though, why some air forces chose it and others didn't?   It wasn't retrofitted either, as far as I can find.  So, what ever advantage it offered wasn't considered sufficient to change matters.

Online Sundog

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2485
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2013, 12:21:58 pm »
I wonder though, why some air forces chose it and others didn't?   It wasn't retrofitted either, as far as I can find.  So, what ever advantage it offered wasn't considered sufficient to change matters.

I'll have to go back and find some of my books, but of course there was a good reason for it, or they wouldn't have done it. It was one of the last modifications they made before closure of the line IIRC.

Offline aim9xray

  • Top Contributor
  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 454
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2013, 12:54:47 pm »
IIRC, the dorsal fin housed a VHF radio antenna.  Installation of radio and antenna was, of course, a customer option to match their ground communications infrastructure.

Offline RAP

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 500
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2013, 09:42:31 am »
Patent drawings for PD-2879D.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 02:37:46 pm by RAP »

Offline Skyblazer

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 13244
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2013, 01:35:13 pm »
Patent drawings for PD-2878D.

Nice, but please be accurate. The designation in your post differs from the one in your image. Which is the right one? Thanks for clarifying.

Offline RAP

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 500
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2013, 02:38:37 pm »
Made a typo, apologize for any confusion.  Corrected in original post.

Offline Kadija_Man

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 1830
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #76 on: July 29, 2013, 06:10:54 am »
Quote
In 1962, however, the Kennedy Administration revived the requirement for a low-cost export fighter, selecting the N-156F as winner of the F-X competition on 23 April 1962 subsequently becoming the "F-5A", being ordered into production in October that year
[Source]

Does anybody know what the other contenders for the F-X competition were?

Offline Skyblazer

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 13244
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #77 on: July 29, 2013, 07:03:43 am »
Does anybody know what the other contenders for the F-X competition were?

Was it really called the "F-X" competition?

I thought this code specifically designated the later "F-15 Eagle" competition.

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22023
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #78 on: August 02, 2013, 05:25:16 am »
Quote
In 1962, however, the Kennedy Administration revived the requirement for a low-cost export fighter, selecting the N-156F as winner of the F-X competition on 23 April 1962 subsequently becoming the "F-5A", being ordered into production in October that year
[Source]

Does anybody know what the other contenders for the F-X competition were?


Hi Kadija,


the other tenders to F-X or MAP competition were Lockheed CL-457 and also I suggest the
North American Rapier.

Offline Arjen

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 2132
  • It's turtles all the way down
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #79 on: August 02, 2013, 05:59:39 am »
the other tenders to F-X or MAP competition were Lockheed CL-457 and also I suggest the
North American Rapier.
The (F-X??) competition was for a low-cost export fighter. The North American F-108 Rapier, had it been built, would not have been cheap. An unlikely contender.
What is your source for the CL-457 as a contender?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 06:02:00 am by Arjen »

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22023
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #80 on: August 02, 2013, 06:23:42 am »
My dear Arjen,


the source for CL-457 is Mr. Tony Butler's book; American Secret Projects: Fighters & Interceptors 1945-1978.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 06:44:48 am by hesham »

Offline Skyblazer

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 13244
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #81 on: August 02, 2013, 06:40:39 am »
My dear Arjen,


the source for CL-457 is Mr. Tony Butler's book; American Secret Projects: Fighters & Interceptors 1945-1978.

No-one disputed the suggestion of the CL-457. It is your suggestion of the F-108 Rapier in this context that makes absolutely no sense. The F-108 was a much bigger type of aircraft with completely different missions. It was designed as an escort fighter for the B-70 Valkyrie and nothing else!

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22023
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #82 on: August 02, 2013, 06:49:13 am »
Stargazer,


the Lockheed CL-457 is one of F-X contenders as Mr Tony Butler's book,but the North
American Rapier is a single-seat lightweight fighter with delta wing and chin intake,
and not related to F-108 Rapier,the last one only which I suggested.

Offline Arjen

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 2132
  • It's turtles all the way down
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #83 on: August 02, 2013, 06:55:12 am »
Ah. Another North American Rapier. Is that also from "American Secret Projects: Fighters & Interceptors 1945-1978''?

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22023
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #84 on: August 02, 2013, 07:04:43 am »

Offline Arjen

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 2132
  • It's turtles all the way down
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #85 on: August 02, 2013, 07:24:57 am »
and do you remember this topic;
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3870.msg30319.html#msg30319
well, it completely slipped my mind. Thank you for reminding me  :)

Offline Steve Pace

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 2269
  • Aviation History Writer
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #86 on: August 02, 2013, 07:58:06 am »
My dear Arjen,


the source for CL-457 is Mr. Tony Butler's book; American Secret Projects: Fighters & Interceptors 1945-1978.

No-one disputed the suggestion of the CL-457. It is your suggestion of the F-108 Rapier in this context that makes absolutely no sense. The F-108 was a much bigger type of aircraft with completely different missions. It was designed as an escort fighter for the B-70 Valkyrie and nothing else!
I disagree - the F-108 was to be an area- and point-defense all-missile-armed interceptor to kill incoming Soviet bombers. -SP
When you know you're right, go ahead.

Offline pometablava

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 3306
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #87 on: August 02, 2013, 10:51:50 am »
Dear gentlemen,

About the XF-108

Opening American Secret Projects at page 112 can read that North American NA-257/XF-108 Rapier was designed to LRI (Long Range Interceptor) competition. As Mr Pace said it was an aircraft designed to defend US cities from incoming Soviet bombers.

Never found, at credible sources, suggestions to use it as the XB-70 escort fighter.

F-108 submitted to the first F-X?. Never read about that. That's an hypothesis?. It's illogical, F-108 and F-5 can't be compared in any sense.

Now going back to the topic

A brief description of Northrop N-156, N-156F and N-156T is offered at American Secret Projects page 186 and 187 but a lot of info can be found at Aerograph I General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon by Jay Miller

Page 7:
Quote
In funding the F-5 program, the DoD had committed itself to the idea of developing a simple, inexpensive, but reasonably capable fighter which could be sold  to countries which could not afford or operate more complex types

No US competition here

In the same time Lockheed was designing, developing and selling F-104 variants to foreign customers. According to American Secret Projects, page 230, Lockheed CL-457 could have been Lockheed's entry in the Mutual Assistance Program competing with the Northrop F-5A

Quote
Once Lockheed and Northrop concluded that there would definitely be a need for an F-104 and/or F-5A replacement, the two companies began pumping in-house funding into design studies that, it was hoped, would create the winning airplane

According to Jay Miller's book, Lockheed developed an F-104 derivative with the designation CL-985 to compete with Northrop for future foreign contracts.

Northrop contemporary studies for F-5A replacement resulted in the F-5E and later, in the Cobra.

Page 8

Quote
While Northop and Lockheed involved in the creation of new fighters to sell to foreign customers, the AF under pressure from the OASD/SA, initiated a new fighter study known as the F-X that had the primary objective of bolstering AF tactical strength as rapidly and economically as possible. The Northrop F-5 and the Vought A-7, already in production, were presented by proponents as being suitable for filling the F-X role.
Following much debate and OSD pressure the AF opted for the A-7 in November 1965.
Although this decision was hailed in some circles as a victory for the ground attack and commonality advocates...it stablished the argument for developing a new, air superiority-oriented AF fighter.
The concept was also refered as F-X....The (new) F-X Concept Formulation Phase was initiated in December 1965 with the release to the aerospace industry of requests for parametric design studies




Offline pometablava

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 3306
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #88 on: August 02, 2013, 10:59:24 am »
I don't know what's that info from wikipedia:

Quote
In 1962, however, the Kennedy Administration revived the requirement for a low-cost export fighter, selecting the N-156F as winner of the F-X competition on 23 April 1962 subsequently becoming the "F-5A", being ordered into production in October that year.[14]

I want to research further on more reliable sources to clarify the F-5A original contract

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22023
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #89 on: August 02, 2013, 04:07:32 pm »
My dear Pometablava,


I never said the F-108 Rapier was submitted to MAP competition,but I only suggested that,
the North American Rapier,which was a single seat delta wing lightweight fighter with intake
looks like F-16,this is my point,and the NA Rapier was not related anyway to F-108 Rapier.


And for second contest to replace F-5A,which called IFA,the tenders were Vought V.1000,
Lockheed CL-1200,McDonnell Dougals F-4EF and Northrop F-5 II.

Offline pometablava

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 3306
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #90 on: August 03, 2013, 12:10:29 am »
My apologies Hesham, I see now you are talking about that lightweight design called Rapier too.

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22023
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #91 on: August 03, 2013, 05:20:45 am »
Never mind my dear Pometablava,


and it seemed to be this Rapier design had many variants, Type I,II & III,and may be more,and
Mr. Tony Butler said that; it was developed in 1950s and 1960s.

Offline Skyblazer

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 13244
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #92 on: August 03, 2013, 01:20:00 pm »
First of all my apologies to hesham about the Rapier confusion. When you mentioned the NAA Rapier as a contender for the N-156, I didn't realize you were talking about the OTHER Rapier (which is the one that most people remember with that name).

As for my remark about "F-X" being the name of the F-15 Eagle (which is of course true), it appears that the acronym was reused from the much earlier program that spawned the N-156. This got me confused too...

the F-108 was to be an area- and point-defense all-missile-armed interceptor to kill incoming Soviet bombers. -SP

You are right Steve. However I'm sure I read that the F-108, at some point of the Rapier program (possibly when the design was briefly revived in 1960), was to be an escort fighter for the Valkyrie. Was that completely wrong? Well obviously it wasn't in your Aero book, must have been elsewhere.



Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22023
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #93 on: August 03, 2013, 04:03:36 pm »
Never mind my dear Stargazer,


and I hope to get a drawing to Lockheed CL-457,specially Mr. Tony Butler called
it F-104-9,and I search about any more info about it,but no way.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #94 on: August 03, 2013, 07:05:34 pm »
Never mind my dear Stargazer,


and I hope to get a drawing to Lockheed CL-457,specially Mr. Tony Butler called
it F-104-9,and I search about any more info about it,but no way.


CL-457 was in essence just an F-104G with some equipment removed.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #95 on: August 03, 2013, 07:07:46 pm »
First of all my apologies to hesham about the Rapier confusion. When you mentioned the NAA Rapier as a contender for the N-156, I didn't realize you were talking about the OTHER Rapier (which is the one that most people remember with that name).

As for my remark about "F-X" being the name of the F-15 Eagle (which is of course true), it appears that the acronym was reused from the much earlier program that spawned the N-156. This got me confused too...



"F-X" in this context means "Fighter - [unknown number]" and was used at least three times.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22023
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #96 on: August 04, 2013, 05:38:56 am »



CL-457 was in essence just an F-104G with some equipment removed.


Thank you my dear Paul.

Offline tartle

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 557
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #97 on: March 22, 2014, 07:22:24 am »
Not sure where to link this blog but it deals with all sorts of Northrop Grumman projects (e.g. Houndog) that did not make it as well as N-156F
Each of the pictures below is an opener for another 9 or 10 of the subject if you click on the picture on the blog.
"... prototypes are a way of letting you think out loud. You want the right people to think aloud with you.” - Paul MacCready, aeronautical engineer.

Offline circle-5

  • Concept Models Guy
  • Top Contributor
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 1156
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #98 on: March 22, 2014, 09:41:38 am »
Not sure where to link this blog [...]

How about in "Interesting Websites": http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/board,20.0.html

Online Sundog

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2485
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #99 on: March 22, 2014, 10:14:08 am »
It's also already linked in the Aerospace section of this blog.

Offline tartle

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 557
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #100 on: March 22, 2014, 12:28:42 pm »
Great.. I did not pick it up when I searched so I'll leave the moderator to 'sweep up the debris'.
"... prototypes are a way of letting you think out loud. You want the right people to think aloud with you.” - Paul MacCready, aeronautical engineer.

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22023
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #101 on: June 17, 2015, 08:03:08 am »
N-156F with wingtip missiles.

Source:
Jerry Scutts: Modern Combat Aircraft 25 Northrop F-5/F-20, Ian Allan, 1986


My dear Paul,


here is the same drawing with data,and a drawing to N-156T early proposed.


Northrop an Aeronautical History

Offline Motocar

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 532
  • I really should change my personal text
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #102 on: September 14, 2016, 10:30:09 am »
Exelent thread....! Unknow this Northrop models

Offline Pioneer

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1541
  • Seek out and close with the enemy
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #103 on: September 18, 2016, 04:36:41 am »
Proposal by Northrop of the N-156F as an all-weather system, using the Hughes Taran fire control
system and Nord Aviation missiles, designated "Rapiere", in the air-to-air role the AA.20 was envisaged,
for air-to-ground the AS.20 or AS.30.
(From Aviation Week June 1960, sorry for the low quality of the drawing, not much better in the article)

Don't mean to detract from principle N-156 topic, but found this:

Nord Aviation AA.20 ‘Rapiere’ air to air missile - was designated the Type 5103. The AA.20 missile project was always regarded as a stepping stone to a more advanced missile (which would materialise as the R.530.). The AA.20 was command guided, using a similar system to that used by Nord's SS.10 ATGM.

Regards
Pioneer
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 12:29:15 pm by Pioneer »
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
I am honored to be your brother.”

— Lt Col Ralph Honner DSO M

Offline Petrus

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 494
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #104 on: April 28, 2017, 07:13:03 am »
Besides N-156 (a fighter for USN's 'jeep carriers') and N-156A (trainer for USAF) Northrop worked upon an rocket-assisted interceptor: N-156R (it was intended for USN as well). That version carried a 5000-lb variable-thrust TR-132 turbo-rocket built by Reaction Motors in addition to two SJ110-B3s (later designated J85-GE-5). The only external difference was the protruding rocket exhaust nozzle (circle inset drawing in N-156.jpg).


N-156:
Length 34' 11''
Wingspan (incl. weapons pods) 26' 3''
2 x SJ110-B3/J85-GE-5 each 2470 lb dry, 3670 lb reheat
Max. speed 815 knots (Ma = 1.51) at 35,000 feet
Combat ceiling 62,100 feet
Armament: two Sidewinders in frangible wingtip pods or two wingtip pods each with 24 1.5-in Gimlet rockets

N-156A:
Length 36' 3''
Wingspan 24' 5''
2 x SJ110-B3/J85-GE-5 each 2470 lb dry, 3670 lb reheat
Max. speed Ma = 1.57 at 35,000 feet
Combat ceiling 61,400 feet
Armament two Sidewinders on wingtip launching rails

N-156R:
Length 34' 11''
Wingspan (incl. weapons pods) 26' 3''
2 x SJ110-B3/J85-GE-5 each 2470 lb dry, 3670 lb reheat
1 x TR-132 5000 lb rocket engine
Max. speed Ma = 2.0 at 35,000 feet to 78,500 feet
Combat ceiling 86,000 feet
Armament: as N-156

Source: 'Flying Wings & Radical Things: Northrop's Secret Aerospace Projects' by Anthony Chong

Piotr


« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 09:02:29 pm by PaulMM (Overscan) »

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22023
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #105 on: April 28, 2017, 02:52:16 pm »
Nice find my dear Petrus.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #106 on: April 28, 2017, 09:03:59 pm »
Please don't post pictures from Tony Chong's book on this forum. Please buy the book if you want to see the drawings.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline Petrus

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 494
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #107 on: April 29, 2017, 10:30:36 am »
Actually the book on Northrop secret projects is available at Google Books (https://books.google.pl/books?id=BPw6DAAAQBAJ). It may be reviewed (lawfully and free of charge) but unfortunately it can't bought there as an e-book.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

  • Secret Projects Forum Founder
  • Administrator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • *****
  • Posts: 10794
  • Paul Martell-Mead
    • Secret Projects
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #108 on: April 30, 2017, 12:35:45 pm »
It can be bought as an ebook from Speciality Press directly, which is a high quality PDF. I own a copy, as it was much cheaper than getting the hard copy posted to me.

I have asked that people don't post images here out of respect for Tony Chong's hard work. By all means post references and page numbers however.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 12:37:55 pm by PaulMM (Overscan) »
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline Petrus

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 494
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #109 on: June 07, 2018, 01:24:53 pm »
Proposal by Northrop of the N-156F as an all-weather system, using the Hughes Taran fire control
system and Nord Aviation missiles, designated "Rapiere", in the air-to-air role the AA.20 was envisaged,
for air-to-ground the AS.20 or AS.30.
(From Aviation Week June 1960, sorry for the low quality of the drawing, not much better in the article)

Here you've got the article on the Rapiere system from the Aviation Week of 27 June 1960

Regars,
Piotr

Offline RAP

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 500
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #110 on: December 01, 2018, 03:01:26 pm »
Early Northrop drawing of N-156T from 1956.

Offline litzj

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 166
  • BLOG : http://jaesan-aero.blogspot.com/
    • http://jaesan-aero.blogspot.com/
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #111 on: December 01, 2018, 04:39:27 pm »
Early Northrop drawing of N-156T from 1956.

After almost 60 years, it re-appeared as N400

Offline NUSNA_Moebius

  • CLEARANCE: Confidential
  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • I really should change my personal text
Re: N-156: Evolution of the Northrop F-5
« Reply #112 on: December 03, 2018, 08:41:35 am »
Early Northrop drawing of N-156T from 1956.

After almost 60 years, it re-appeared as N400

Question is whether or not N400 could be considered an N-156 variant.  It definitely belongs in the family tree, but probably deserves it's own branch like the Cobra/Hornet line and probably the F-20 deserves it's own branch which N400 would be more appropriately placed.