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Author Topic: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)  (Read 17962 times)

Offline Skybolt

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Haven't proposed one of my contests with no prize for a while... This is difficult (not REALLY difficult) but feasible. I can say it is WW2-era.
Now the ball is in your court, gentlemen...
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 07:18:17 am by Stargazer2006 »

Offline Silencer1

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2011, 10:14:27 am »
Hi!

Two very obvious alternatives  - Burnelli and Cunliff-Owen.
Am I right?
8-)

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2011, 02:38:47 am »
Er, no. You're way off mark..

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2011, 02:42:51 am »
Douglas XCG-19, perhaps? Or any of the unbuilt CG- cargo gliders?

Offline red admiral

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2011, 03:01:38 am »
The drawing style says Savoia Marchetti to me. Picking a type number is more challenging; SM-99?

Offline Maveric

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2011, 10:52:45 am »
I agree with you red admiral, but S.M.99? I believe a forrunner or a later version of the S.M.104... ??? (or S.M.105/106)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 10:54:32 am by Maveric »
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Offline lark

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2011, 11:27:18 am »
I dont know directly why , but the concept made me think about Bartini...

Offline hesham

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2011, 05:25:14 am »
I agree with you red admiral, but S.M.99? I believe a forrunner or a later version of the S.M.104... ??? (or S.M.105/106)

Hi Maveric;

It is not SM.104 or SM.105,and SM.106 and SM.107 were not a twin boom aircraft,
I agree with my dear Lark or it is from Germany,I displayed a concept looks like it
from many months,but I don't remember the name of the designer now.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 08:15:17 am by hesham »

Offline Maveric

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2011, 06:37:16 am »
Hesham, you´re right S.M.106 is not a twin boom transport, but why not S.M.104 or 105?

Maybe a project by Alcor...
...the design of the props...
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Offline hesham

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2011, 08:22:30 am »
Hesham, you´re right S.M.106 is not a twin boom transport, but why not S.M.104 or 105?

Maybe a project by Alcor...
...the design of the props...

Maveric;

I have the drawing for SM.104,it is not for it,and the SM.105 was here;
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5390.0/highlight,sm+105.html

and for SM.106,SM.107 and even SM.109 were a normal transport aircraft
projects and they haven't a twin boom configuration.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2011, 08:26:13 am »
I still go for "American", personally. Perhaps not a CG- project, but something from the same era, i.e. circa 1942.

Offline Tophe

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2011, 11:31:21 am »
French? Dyle-et-Bacalan?

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2011, 01:56:34 pm »
- have to remember all that SM-10X designations are all post-war. Anyway, it's nor American. And it is not M.archetti's. And, Paul, it isn't Bartini's. _h, and it's not English nor German..

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2011, 02:34:26 pm »
Japanese, maybe?

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2011, 01:08:52 am »
Continental Europe.... I can add that the year is 1942.

Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2011, 01:36:30 am »
I'd say it’s a Saab design. They worked on buried engines and twin boom designs in the early 1940s so it has design context. Also Sweden would have had a strong requirement for a load carrying transport aircraft in 1942 to sustain external trade without the risk of the warzone North Sea.
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Offline lark

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2011, 05:52:50 am »
Continental Europe.. a 2e guess...
Something found during your research for the Italian Secret Projects book...?

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2011, 08:37:59 am »
Yes, Paul, it's Italian... but it wasn't found by me (that would have been a REALLY difficult contest..  ;) ).
So, gentlemen, it's Italian, it's 1942, it isn't Savoia Marchetti's, and.... engines were Alfa Romeo 135... this should say you something...
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 08:46:03 am by Skybolt »

Offline Maveric

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2011, 11:45:35 am »
I wish its a uknown Caproni... ;)

I believe only the big italian manufacturers projected such a big airplane (Breda, Caproni, Piaggio or FIAT).
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Offline Michel Van

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2011, 12:57:31 pm »
maybe a FIAT design ?
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Offline Johnbr

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2011, 04:09:15 pm »
It looks to me like a Caproni.

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2011, 01:19:36 am »
..er, Caproni wouldn't have used an Alfa Romeo engine in a design without being forced.... Ditto Piaggio and FIAT. And there were other manufacturers that designed big airplanes besides those four. I mean primary ones. I can think at least of two of them, and one of those is the right one.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2011, 02:10:44 am »
Ambrosini?

Offline Silencer1

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2011, 02:35:05 am »
Piaggio?

The manufacturer of several really heavy bombers, including P-108?

Offline hesham

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2011, 05:05:32 am »
Hi,

I think it was IMAM Ro.74 or Ro.75.

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2011, 09:07:04 am »
No, it isn't Ambrosini (I don't consider them a "major manufacturer", BTW). Piaggio wouldn't have used an Alfa engine without constriction... No, Hesham, nice try but it isn't IMAM... Now, we have listed everyone, but two builders. One of the two is the right one. They are both Northern Italy based, one still exists today.

Offline Arjen

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2011, 09:16:00 am »
I count three companies: Macchi, Breda and CANT - all from Northern Italy - still not a clue  ???

Offline Silencer1

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2011, 09:20:49 am »
Hi!

I count three companies: Macchi, Breda and CANT - all from Northern Italy - still not a clue  ???

I think only Macchi (now part of Finmeccanica) is the only survivor from this list.
Is this twin-boomer a Macchi's one?

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2011, 10:04:10 am »
Congrats, you got it !
To be precise, it is the EB.9, by Ermanno Bazzocchi (of MB.326 fame). If built it would have been called Macchi EB.9 (like is was done for Castoldi Macchi C.202 for example). Bazzocchi entered Macchi in 1941 as principal associate designer, hired by the company to substitute Castoldi in a few years (this happened in mid-45). The EB.9 was intended as an assault transport, designed to what looks like some sort of informal specification circulated by early 1942 that produced the SM.96 I (you know only the SM.96 II, that was a totally different beast) and later the SM.96 III. The design evolved for circa two years and it's final configuration was of more conventional shape, targeted to post-war medium capacity air transport for passenger/cargo. In this later incarnation, the EB.9 was benchmarked by Bazzocchi against two competing design, the Ca.179 and... the SM.99. Problem is that, while we have info on the Ca.179, there is absolutely nothing on the SM.99. My guess is that is was a wartime early designation of what later became the SM.104 (or the SM.105 twin first version, not the later detachable-pod configuration that is much better known). There is a no-designation SM October 1943 design for a tricycle-wheeled passenger transport, but is was considerably larger (4 Alfa 135). The EB.9  in this later version was still powerd by two Alfa 135s.
I'll post all the drawings of the EB.9 that are available, plus some specs. And then I'll reveal where you can find them and many more... for a modicum amount of money (no, it isn't ISP).

Offline Maveric

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2011, 10:51:40 am »
Thanks for your infos, Skybolt. I like italian aircraft projects... :o
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Offline alfakilo

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2011, 04:22:30 pm »
Part of the problem might have been when a particular engine was suggested...a radial...and that picture didn't look like an airplane with radial engines.

Offline hesham

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2011, 05:09:47 am »
Hi,

this is meaning Mr. Ermanno Bazzocchi had anther 8 designs,EB.1 to EB.8,
are all of them aircraft or what ?.

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2011, 09:38:13 am »
Yes, Hesham, good questions. They were airplanes and sailplanes. Not all of them were done when at Macchi. Most famous of all is the EB.4, which was a "people plane", a little canard (canards were always a keen interest for Bazzocchi; he started to use them anew in various configurations of the MB-340 and 341, and in the ATX and derived projects).

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2011, 09:47:03 am »
Uh, regarding the radial, yes, the design of the cowling is very streamlined, but the notes by Bazzocchi explicitly specify Alfa 135s. Keep in mind that the one shown is a conceptual early design, that  wouldn't have been possibly built by a company like Macchi at the time (complex, dual curvature surfaces, etc). In the following refined designs the shapes were less streamlined and more "buildable". The basic idea of the project was to marry the lifting fuselage idea from Burnell with the streamlined contour from Miles (Burnelli's and early Miles X projects were well known in Italy at that time, since they had been covered in magazines like L'Aerotecnique and Flight, that were widely read in Italy in the aeronautical coomunity).
I'm scanning like mad, tomorrow I'll start to post EB.9s.

Offline Maveric

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2011, 10:57:28 am »
         E.B.            1   " Littore "   sporting sailplane   1934
         E.B.            2              sporting sailplane   1936   
         E.B.            3   (  C. 3  )   sporting sailplane     project   193?   
         E.B.            4              research aircraft   1944            

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Offline hesham

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2011, 03:28:31 pm »


 Thank you my dear Skybolt very much.

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2011, 09:55:59 am »
The C.3 was another kind of beast. ok, I'll post that too... :P
And the EB. was earlier than 1944.

Offline Maveric

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2011, 10:41:15 am »
Please Skybolt, more of these contests with italian projects ;)
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Offline Skybolt

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2011, 06:21:34 am »
Ok, Mav !  ;D
Now let me finish the scanning for this, I'm late, I'm late, as the White Rabbit said....

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2011, 09:53:36 am »
Ok, here we go. In late 1942 Bazzocchi modified the first configuration of its assault transport in a way more manufacturable by Macchi standards. In so doing, the design became more angular and apparently lost the ability to load and unload cargo via a rear door in a roll-on/roll-off fashion. Intended engines were alfa 135s.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 10:22:23 am by Skybolt »

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2011, 10:11:34 am »
During 1943, Bazzocchi revised further the lifting fuselage concept trying to recover the rear-door roll-on/roll-off capability. The result was a high-tail four fixed wheels configuration. Span was 32 meters. This design was roughly contemporaneous of the SM-96 III, a twin-tail assault transport maybe done for Germans (SM transports were high valued by the Luftwaffe).
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 10:22:44 am by Skybolt »

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2011, 10:18:53 am »
In 1944, after a lot of aerodynamics research done at the Milan's Politecnico wind tunnel on the lifting fuselage configuration, Bazzocchi completely changed direction. Maybe the assault transport requirement by Germans never materialized, or he was already thinking of postwar development. In any case he chose a rather conventional configuration with a frontal cargo loading door. Landing gear was still fixed. This is the last known drawing of this project, but there is still another parallel variant with a distinctive shape that will be rather a surprise....
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 10:23:03 am by Skybolt »

Offline Tophe

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2011, 11:15:15 am »
Thanks for all these unknown twin-boomers... ;D

Offline Maveric

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2011, 01:43:15 pm »
A very intersting design evolution.
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Offline lark

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2011, 07:37:49 am »
Thanks a lot Sky... complete unknown before.

Offline Retrofit

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2011, 08:08:46 am »
but there is still another parallel variant with a distinctive shape that will be rather a surprise....

A BWB shape?  ;D ;D ;D

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2011, 09:44:08 am »
No, but the Britons here will jump on the seat seeing the date...

Offline Nico

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2011, 12:36:56 am »
         E.B.            1   " Littore "   sporting sailplane   1934
         E.B.            2              sporting sailplane   1936   
         E.B.            3   (  C. 3  )   sporting sailplane     project   193?   
         E.B.            4              research aircraft   1944            



Hey Mav:
there was also an:
        E. B. 5 experimental aircraft for distance record
        E. B. 9 four iterations of the project, described here by Sky
        E. B. 10 eight-pax twin-engined aircraft (dated 12.27.45)

Nico

Offline Maveric

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #48 on: February 27, 2011, 12:43:56 am »
Great Nico...

thanks for the additions. Any drawings?

Maveric
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Offline Skybolt

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2011, 02:16:13 am »
There were an EB.6 and an EB.7, too. The EB.5 was Bazzocchi's master thesis at Milan Polytechnic.
My scanner is fully committed. I'll post some drawings this evening if I'll be abe to finish the more urgent job I'm doing (related to ISP, BTW).

Offline pometablava

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #50 on: February 27, 2011, 03:41:24 am »
Think we could rename this topic with a more informative title...

Offline hesham

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2013, 07:59:49 am »
There were an EB.6 and an EB.7, too. The EB.5 was Bazzocchi's master thesis at Milan Polytechnic.
My scanner is fully committed. I'll post some drawings this evening if I'll be abe to finish the more urgent job I'm doing (related to ISP, BTW).


Hi,


what about EB.6,EB.7 and EB.8 ?.

Offline hesham

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2015, 11:52:07 am »
Hi,


what was MB.11 ?.

Offline Jemiba

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It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline hesham

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2015, 02:23:36 pm »
Sorry for this mistake my dear Jemiba.

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2015, 12:24:59 am »
No problem, actually I didn't know, that Macchi went the same way, as for example
Messerschmitt, producing light cars after the war, instead of light aircraft.
Honestly, I wasn't absolutely sure still, yet, but found the following item via ePay now:
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline hesham

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #56 on: March 20, 2015, 05:09:01 am »
No problem, actually I didn't know, that Macchi went the same way, as for example
Messerschmitt, producing light cars after the war, instead of light aircraft.
Honestly, I wasn't absolutely sure still, yet, but found the following item via ePay now:


Thank you my dear Jemiba.

Offline hesham

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Re: Contest: what project is this ? (Ermanno Bazzocchi's wartime EB-9)
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2017, 07:41:01 am »
         E.B.            1   " Littore "   sporting sailplane   1934
         E.B.            2              sporting sailplane   1936   
         E.B.            3   (  C. 3  )   sporting sailplane     project   193?   
         E.B.            4              research aircraft   1944            



Hey Mav:
there was also an:
        E. B. 5 experimental aircraft for distance record
        E. B. 9 four iterations of the project, described here by Sky
        E. B. 10 eight-pax twin-engined aircraft (dated 12.27.45)

Nico

Mr. Bazzocchi designed a copy of Mignet Pou du ciel,that's mentioned in Le Fana
1-2017 magazine with drawing.