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Author Topic: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s  (Read 26754 times)

Offline flateric

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ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« on: December 08, 2006, 02:09:30 am »
Interesting stills of scientist looking at what everybody (mostly, Soviet spies) should consider Lockheed ATF from Lockheed promo documentary, showing how far they went into not-showing how their real ATF would look like.

Third picture (ATF manufacturing) remembers me Khruchev's phrase of making rockets on conveyor like a sausages
« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 03:41:21 pm by overscan »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline paralay

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2006, 10:17:35 am »
 8)

Offline flateric

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2006, 01:06:50 pm »
Sasha, of course I know these artist's impressions (adding more Lockheed art studio masterpieces now):) I just wanted to show how far could cover-up attempts go in trying to steal the real thing shape. I often think of this regarding I-21/PAK-FA.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 03:40:57 pm by overscan »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2006, 01:55:55 pm »
Keep in mind... this particular "ATF" was deisgned and painted by Syd mead, the industrial designer who gave the world the "spinner."



So, yes, it's artistic, but it didn't have much to do with reality.

Which was the point.
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Offline flateric

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2006, 02:41:03 pm »
Keep in mind... this particular "ATF" was deisgned and painted by Syd mead, the industrial designer who gave the world the "spinner."

Blade Runner...oh, my favourite sci-fi movie...so, Syd Mead was hired by Lockheed to foolish our spies?

So, yes, it's artistic, but it didn't have much to do with reality.

Which was the point.

Sometimes it's strikingly remembers me our Frankenstain-inspired MiG 1.44...which also didn't have much to do with reality.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 02:42:35 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Matej

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2006, 02:59:25 pm »
Similar or not? Its from Code One.

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Offline flateric

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2006, 03:29:09 pm »
Where are damn canards?
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2006, 09:59:41 pm »
Syd Mead was hired by Lockheed to foolish our spies?

Seems that way. They made no secret that he was doign the art at the time, though... perhaps he simply took some generic fighter layout and made it realistic.


Quote
Sometimes it's strikingly remembers me our Frankenstain-inspired MiG 1.44...which also didn't have much to do with reality.

The best "phony designs" are the ones that make the other side spend lots of time, money and effort trying to copy it.
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Offline Skybolt

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2006, 07:17:35 am »
Ummmh, has anyone tried to use that ATF design to do some simulation model for X-Plane ?  ;)

Offline flateric

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"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Online hesham

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2006, 12:04:15 pm »
My dears,

a surprise to all member,
I have a really picture to dear (paralay) artistic
picture of Lockheed ATF project of 1986,it was shoted at its
lair,and the source mentioned it was actually built.

 the artistic picture from paralay which I mean it:

Offline flateric

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2006, 12:44:31 pm »
Dear Hesham, I don't know if you have read previous posts, but it was clearly explained that this is was graphics concept of ATF having nothing common to reality, made by Syd Mead for Lockheed. Thread purpose was to show that Lockheed even make a wind tunnel model to make everybody think that their ATF would look like this.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2006, 12:47:04 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2006, 12:59:36 pm »
I believe Lockheed's disinformation effort was primarily aimed not at the Soviets but at other US aircraft companies.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
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Offline Sundog

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2006, 02:32:32 pm »
I don't think any of this had to do with dis-information and simply to do with the fact that the ATF designs were classified at the time. Anyone with a back ground in aeronautics could immediately recognize that the canard placement just about embedded on the spine of the Syd Mead conception wasn't feasible and was just an artist's concept of an "Advanced" fighter.

Offline flateric

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2006, 08:46:31 pm »
I must agree, while I should mention that Northrop concept drawing published was not far away from the real stuff.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 04:24:45 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Online hesham

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2006, 11:06:06 am »
My dears,

you still don't believe me,I rebeat I have a really
picture to this aircraft,but the book was not
popular.and I think it was not a full scale mock-up.

Offline flateric

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2006, 11:31:18 am »
What the title of the book and what do you think it was?
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Online hesham

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2006, 11:38:39 am »
The book,

 Warplanes of the 21st century, by Bill Yenne.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2006, 11:51:58 am »
I've seen the Bill Yenne book, it has a number of photographs of Erik Simonsen models. Perhaps one of those is your picture?
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Online hesham

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2006, 08:11:52 am »
Yes my dear overscan,

and the picture was shown a little different from artist picture,such as
the really aircraft had a longer canard than the drawing,but the book
has also a picture to a fighter derivative from Rockwell HIMAT,and I
don't know it was a really aircraft built or a macket trick,because it was
shooted in the sky.

Offline flateric

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2007, 04:15:51 pm »
From October, 1993 Air International - I could not withstand...
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2007, 05:22:38 pm »
Stills from fresh German N24 channel stealth-related documentary. Stuff is claimed to be - of course - F-22. Interesting if this a pure speculation or another Lockheed's(?) desinformation CGIs (films is loaded of LM computer graphics of REAL F-22 from Lockheed, and appearence of this images is seems interesting). My German language knowledge is less than poor.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2007, 05:25:40 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Yildirim

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2007, 01:59:17 pm »
It looks a awful lot like the Lockheed ASTOVL concept designs.
"Madness," he murmured. I bowed. "But a great madness,"

Offline Matej

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2007, 01:45:01 pm »
What came to my mind now is the speculation, if Russia is currently doing the same with the PAK FA. I mean model revealed by Paralay that looks like a warped F-22. Isnt it made only for disinformation campaign to cover real look of the airplane?

Thanks to God, his web moved to a much faster server and has a new adress http://www.paralay.com  Take a look!

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Offline Merv_P

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2007, 02:51:29 pm »
I found this on the DVIC site, on the first page of a search on 'ATF'. I haven't seen this design before; does anyone have more information?


Offline LowObservable

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2007, 03:05:47 pm »
It was an entirely notional concept from the USAF system project office (SPO) - around 1984-85, certainly well before downselect. Someone felt that there should be some kind of official depiction of ATF. By this time the SPO pretty much knew where the competitors were headed and were careful to draw something that did not look like any of them.

Offline sferrin

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2007, 03:15:49 pm »
I found this on the DVIC site, on the first page of a search on 'ATF'. I haven't seen this design before; does anyone have more information?



That brings back memories.  I remember seeing that back then and had completely forgot about it.  There was another that somewhat resembled LoFLYTE with twin engines, ventral intakes with half-cones, and was an off-white color with the aircraft flying towards the camera.
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Offline Sundog

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2007, 03:39:41 pm »
I remember seeing a design, I think it was on the cover of a Science magazine (maybe even named "Science"?) back around the mid to late 80's, and it was the twin engine delta wing canard design that Lockheed Martin was showing that sort of reminded me of a more blended MiG-1.42. It was coming straight at you while going almost straight at you. It was very good artwork.

I also remember seeing that picture posted at the beginning and wondering what was going on with the inlets. They reminded me of the head of an electric shaver.  :D I would swear on the version I saw, black and white, it looked like there were grills over the inlets. It might have just been poor printing.

Offline flateric

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2007, 02:46:01 am »
This one, indeed. This is Lockheed's artist's concept ca.1985.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2007, 02:49:41 am by flateric »
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stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Sundog

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2007, 01:56:18 pm »
Yes that's the design, and the cover of Wings is similar to the other cover I saw, but the other cover was still a different image. I actually have it buried in a box somewhere, either in the house attic or the garage attic. Thanks for posting those, though, because I always thought it was still a nice looking design.

Offline flateric

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2007, 02:51:03 pm »
Hmm, may be this one?
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Matej

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2007, 10:25:55 am »
This one, indeed. This is Lockheed's artist's concept ca.1985.

...specifically designed to cover the real design. We have a thread about that... somewhere.

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Offline sferrin

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2008, 12:42:19 pm »
Not the plane but. . .  (From '86.  I'd say they didn't quite get there with the F-22  :P )
« Last Edit: January 19, 2008, 12:43:59 pm by sferrin »
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Offline Matej

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2008, 12:59:51 pm »
Yeah! E.T. in the cockpit!  :D

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Offline Sundog

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2008, 04:47:39 pm »
It seems they were off by one generation, as a lot of what is shown there appears to very much be what is in the F-35 cockpit.

Offline LowObservable

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2008, 05:20:06 am »
Aka The Bug That Ate Dayton.

Offline flateric

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2008, 02:51:06 am »
Original NATF pin from Lockheed team
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Offline sferrin

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2008, 06:36:53 am »
Original NATF pin from Lockheed team

They used the Syd Mead design for the pin apparently.  :)
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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2008, 10:29:29 am »
My dears,

a surprise to all member,
I have a really picture to dear (paralay) artistic
picture of Lockheed ATF project of 1986,it was shoted at its
lair,and the source mentioned it was actually built.

 the artistic picture from paralay which I mean it:
project that had inspired this game :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F29_Retaliator   :o :o

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qwJmlWdmP2M
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 10:43:21 am by flateric »
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Offline sferrin

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2008, 01:44:46 pm »
Spotted the picture on the right yesterday.  Don't know if that's an available mode or a photoshop job though.  Now all they need are the 3D overlay graphics of SAM envelopes etc.  and they'll be set (apparently touch screens suck in the cockpit as bad as in real life).
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Offline flateric

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2008, 02:19:10 pm »
Sferrin, I hardly doubt Adobe Systems even existed then=) This is colour transparent film as I think.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline sferrin

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2008, 05:06:49 pm »
Sferrin, I hardly doubt Adobe Systems even existed then=) This is colour transparent film as I think.

Dude, I'm talkin' about the F-35 shot on the right.  ;)  Actually I guess it would help if I posted the picture I was referring to eh?  :P
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Offline flateric

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2008, 04:46:47 am »
Well, Syd Mead's creature even did it way into Lockheed AIAA papers in 1989!

AIAA 1989-1407
ELEVATED TEMPERATURE ALUMINUM ALLOYS FOR ADVANCED FIGHTER AIRCRAFT
J. C. Ekvall, R. A. Rainenn, and D. J. Chellman
Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Company, Burbank, California
R. R. Flora
Air Force Wright Aeronautical Laboratory
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio
M. J. Gerbach
Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Company,
Marietta, Georgia
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 05:59:00 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline sferrin

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2008, 05:24:33 am »
That wasn't the Syd Meade design but a different one.  Check the canard position on that one with the S.M. one.
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Offline flateric

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2008, 05:59:30 am »
well, a*slightly* modified S.M. one)
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Sundog

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2008, 09:28:25 am »
Isn't that design, shown in the paper, the one illustrated in the first two pics on page one of your post in this thread, as is shown on the Wings cover?

Offline flateric

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2008, 09:33:27 am »
No, that one with high-mounted canards, 'classic' Syd Mead's ATF
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2009, 10:40:08 pm »
Renamed topic to remove typo :)
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
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Offline Hammer Birchgrove

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2009, 10:49:25 am »
From October, 1993 Air International - I could not withstand...
:D
To the heroism of the Resistance Fighters -- past, present and future -- this post is respectfully dedicated.

Offline Triton

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2010, 03:43:54 pm »
An artist's impression identified as a Lockheed ATF contender released in 1985 shows a chined nose similar to the SR-71, a fairly orthodox delta wing with canard foreplanes, and vectoring engine nozzles.

Source: Richardson, Doug. Stealth Warplanes Salamander Books Ltd. 2001.

Offline flateric

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2010, 04:50:15 pm »
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1165.msg10545.html#msg10545
Stuff is claimed to be - of course - F-22. Interesting if this a pure speculation or another Lockheed's(?) desinformation CGIs

Confirmed as 'official' Lockheed speculation
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stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2010, 04:54:58 pm »
Artist's impression of Advanced Tactical Fighter by Attila Hejja appearing in December 1987 issue of Popular Mechanics.

Source: Cole, Tim. "Airpower 2000" Popular Mechanics December 1987 p. 72.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 05:00:55 pm by Triton »

Offline airman

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2010, 08:04:04 am »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Tactical_Fighter

there are also diagram of concept aircraft submitted by aircraft corporations!
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Offline flateric

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2015, 07:28:51 am »
...
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2015, 07:35:27 am »
...

As I know from this period,that was a mock-up actually built ?.

Offline archipeppe

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2015, 10:19:52 am »
...


Such image payed surely something to the Firefox movie....

Offline Vladimir

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2015, 10:22:15 am »
Hi,
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 10:30:33 am by Vladimir »

Offline flateric

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2018, 02:10:45 pm »
...
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2018, 09:56:05 am »
I found this on the DVIC site, on the first page of a search on 'ATF'. I haven't seen this design before; does anyone have more information?

This from a circa 1982 or 1983 publication of Popular Science. It was a USAF "design" intended to portray the concepts of the new fighter, namely 2D thrust vectoring, LO inlets, supercruise aerodynamics (then though needed to be tailless), and internal weapons.

If you actually look at, it is basically the F-22 minus the tail, right down to the one piece canopy. Lockmart gave the USAF exactly what they wanted.
"The test of success is not what you do when your on top. Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.
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