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Author Topic: Heinkel Postwar Fighters  (Read 32976 times)

Offline richard

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Heinkel Postwar Fighters
« on: December 02, 2006, 01:42:39 am »
Who could post a picture of the 1957 Heinkel He 012 ( or 021 ? ) fighter project ?
Thanks a lot for the help !
Richard

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Heinkel Postwar Fighters
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2006, 06:00:23 am »
The He 012 is just known to me as a wartime jet engine. Do you mean fighter projects
of the P.12xx series ?
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline richard

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Re: Heinkel Postwar Fighters
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2006, 07:56:36 am »
Hi , Jemiba 8
After the War during the 50'  Siegfried Günter of the Ernst Heinkel AG , Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen, designed some  delta jet fighters :
- He o11 (1954) single jet for Egypt
- He 011 twin jets
- He S 7
- He 021 (or 012 ? ) (1955) for Spain ( Casa CH 101 in Spain )
- He 031 Florett (1957)
For all of them my knowledge is very scarce ,whith some ???? ; I have pics of them apart the He 021
Who have more info ?
Thanks
Richard

Offline boxkite

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Re: Heinkel Postwar Fighters
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2006, 12:59:59 pm »
Quote
After the War during the 50'  Siegfried Günter of the Ernst Heinkel AG , Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen, designed some  delta jet fighters :
- He 011 (1954) single jet for Egypt
- He 011 twin jets
- He S 7
- He 021 (or 012 ? ) (1955) for Spain ( Casa CH 101 in Spain )
- He 031 Florett (1957)
For all of them my knowledge is very scarce ,whith some  ? ; I have pics of them apart the He 021
Who have more info ?

The following three fighter-interceptors have been shortly described in Köhler’s “Ernst Heinkel – Pionier der Schnellflugzeuge” (“Die deutsche Luftfahrt“ vol 5), but the author causes confusion, speaking of a He 021 in the appendix and of a He 031 in the caption of the three-view drawing ...

He 011-   projected for Egypt (it’s your turn, hesham)
-   delta wing
-   1 x Heinkel He S 053 / 1 x 6,500 kp
-   span 11.50 m
-   length 14.75 m
-   wing area 57.50 m²
-   gross weight 12,000 kg
-   speed Mach 1.2
-   year 1956
-   Antonio has sent me the attached model picture (from AIR Enthusiast or AIR International?) – the width of the nose and the position of the air intakes is different compared with the drawing.

He 012 (= C 101 -> for Spain –> Antonio, is there more about this project in Manuel Lage’s “Hispano Suiza 1904 - 1972: Hombres, Empresas, Motores y Aviones”?)
-   delta wing
-   1 x Bristol Orpheus / 1 x 2,500 kp
-   span 6.78 m
-   length 9.95 m
-   wing area 20.00 m²
-   gross weight 3,900 kg
-   speed Mach 1.2
-   year 1956

He 021 (or He 031 ???) “Florett (i. e. ‘foil’)
-   Heinkel’s entry for the first German postwar competition requiring an interceptor (November 1956), the “Florett” was developed by a team headed by Siegfried Günter, this proposal was the winner, but the tactical requirement changed – the German Ministry of Defence wanted to get fighters with VTOL capability … (-> He 231 -> VJ 101A -> VJ 101C)
-   1 x D.H. Gyron Junior plus 1 x D.H. Spectre / 1 x 3,220 kp plus 3,632 kp
-   span 8.64 m
-   length 13.17 m
-   wing area 23.12 m²
-   gross weight 5,200 kg
-   speed Mach 1.2
-   year 1957

Heinkel S 7 – Heinkel S … is a engine designation for me, but I’m not very familiar with this line.

Offline richard

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Re: Heinkel Postwar Fighters
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2006, 02:16:23 am »
Thanks Boxkite
I agree for the He 011 and for the He 031
In " Flugzeug Archiv Band 5 " there is a picture of a  mock up of a Heinkel interceptor fuselage  named S 7 (motor name ? ); Could be the 021 ???
I have seen long times ago a picture of the He o21 (may be 012 ) but where ??? It looked something like the 031 but definitively lighter and with a very short nose .(40 years remembrance )
In " RAF Flying Review " Sept 1956 I read :
various developpements in Spain :-CASA-209 Super Azor
                                              -CASA-2111 (licence He 111)
                                              -CASA-1131 (licence Bü 131)
                                              -Casa CH-101 lightweight- fighter designed by the E. Heinkel company ,single jet ( Orpheus ) Mach 1.5 .
Same info in Aviation Magazine
So I am quite sure there was an He 021 ,it was not the He 011 nor the He 031.
Perhaps comes the light from Spain ?

Offline richard

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Re: Heinkel Postwar Fighters
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2006, 02:20:49 am »
 ??? Soory for those  ??? I only wanted to write three ?

Offline Antonio

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Re: Heinkel Postwar Fighters
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2006, 09:51:25 am »
Richard, you're right: the Heinkel He-012 existed. I discovered it thanks to my dear friend Thomas who recommended me to search and buy Hispano Suiza 1904-1972 by Manuel Lage ISBN 84-88717-29-6 which is a must-have for Spanish Aviation Enthusiasts. (I ordered my copy here: http://www.ecobook.com for 24 €)

Lets see:

Ernst Heinkel arrived Spain in 1955 because he had contacts at CASA where the local He111 version was still in production. He proposed the Spanish Air Ministry a very lightweight supersonic fighter which were more attractive to the Ejército del Aire than Messerschmitt's HA-300 1954. HA-300 (1954) was heavier than desired. Heinkel's design was only 2000 kg empty weight. It would be powered by a 2000 kg thurst class engine. Built at CASA in Sevilla, it could be ready for first flight in 3 years (1958).
Project original description dates back from June 1956 and its designation is He-012.

Technical Data from this Project description is:

Span: 6,78 m
Lenght: 9,95 m
Wing Area: 23,15 m2 (20 m2 in H.D. Köhler's book about Heinkel)
Empty Weight: 2600 Kg
Max Weight: 3500 Kg (3900 Kg in H.D. Köhler's book about Heinkel)
Max Speed: Mach 1,02 (Mach 1,2 in H.D. Köhler's book about Heinkel)
Powerplant: 1xBristol Orpheus (2500 Kg Thurst)

No pics available but refered as a delta wing design

In November 1955, Messerschmitt's reaction was a much revised HA-300 with area rule features and weight (Max weight went from 5000 kg to 3421 kg) and size reduction (lenght: 13,5 m to 11,1 m; span: 7 m to 5,84 m).

At the end, Messerschmitt/HASA HA-300 was prefered to Heinkel/CASA option. I have found no references about what would have been He-012 designation if it would have series produced by CASA.

Regards,

Antonio  







Offline boxkite

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Re: Heinkel Postwar Fighters
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2006, 12:04:35 pm »
Quote
the Heinkel He-012 existed. I discovered it thanks to my dear friend Thomas who recommended me to search and buy Hispano Suiza 1904-1972 by Manuel Lage ISBN 84-88717-29-6 which is a must-have for Spanish Aviation Enthusiasts.


For non-Spanish speakers like me: An English-language edition (Hispano Suiza in Aeronautics: Men, Companies, Engines and Aircraft) does exist! The ISBN is 0768009979 (Paperback: 495 pages, Publisher: SAE International, November 2003). The quality of the pictures in the Spanish edition is not the best (isn't it, Antonio?). On the other hand, I don't know if it's better in the US edition -  ???

Offline boxkite

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Re: Heinkel Postwar Fighters
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2006, 01:54:56 pm »
Here is the cover ...

Online hesham

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Re: Heinkel Postwar Fighters
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2007, 10:28:57 am »
Hi,

The Heinkel He-231 (VJ-101 A-6).

Offline Petrus

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Re: Heinkel Postwar Fighters
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2007, 03:01:26 am »
Quote
After the War during the 50'  Siegfried Günter of the Ernst Heinkel AG , Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen, designed some  delta jet fighters :
- He 011 (1954) single jet for Egypt
- He 011 twin jets
- He S 7
- He 021 (or 012 ? ) (1955) for Spain ( Casa CH 101 in Spain )
- He 031 Florett (1957)
For all of them my knowledge is very scarce ,whith some  ? ; I have pics of them apart the He 021
Who have more info ?

The following three fighter-interceptors have been shortly described in Köhler’s “Ernst Heinkel – Pionier der Schnellflugzeuge” (“Die deutsche Luftfahrt“ vol 5), but the author causes confusion, speaking of a He 021 in the appendix and of a He 031 in the caption of the three-view drawing ...

He 011-   projected for Egypt (it’s your turn, hesham)
-   delta wing
-   1 x Heinkel He S 053 / 1 x 6,500 kp
-   span 11.50 m
-   length 14.75 m
-   wing area 57.50 m²
-   gross weight 12,000 kg
-   speed Mach 1.2
-   year 1956
-   Antonio has sent me the attached model picture (from AIR Enthusiast or AIR International?) – the width of the nose and the position of the air intakes is different compared with the drawing.

He 012 (= C 101 -> for Spain –> Antonio, is there more about this project in Manuel Lage’s “Hispano Suiza 1904 - 1972: Hombres, Empresas, Motores y Aviones”?)
-   delta wing
-   1 x Bristol Orpheus / 1 x 2,500 kp
-   span 6.78 m
-   length 9.95 m
-   wing area 20.00 m²
-   gross weight 3,900 kg
-   speed Mach 1.2
-   year 1956

He 021 (or He 031 ???) “Florett (i. e. ‘foil’)
-   Heinkel’s entry for the first German postwar competition requiring an interceptor (November 1956), the “Florett” was developed by a team headed by Siegfried Günter, this proposal was the winner, but the tactical requirement changed – the German Ministry of Defence wanted to get fighters with VTOL capability … (-> He 231 -> VJ 101A -> VJ 101C)
-   1 x D.H. Gyron Junior plus 1 x D.H. Spectre / 1 x 3,220 kp plus 3,632 kp
-   span 8.64 m
-   length 13.17 m
-   wing area 23.12 m²
-   gross weight 5,200 kg
-   speed Mach 1.2
-   year 1957

Heinkel S 7 – Heinkel S … is a engine designation for me, but I’m not very familiar with this line.


Do you have any idea how the He-011 would be armed? As it is being described as a fighter-bomber I wonder if it was to have as internal bomb-bay for example. Do your sources say anything that regards that matter?

I would appreciate any info.

Best regards,
Piotr

Offline Petrus

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Re: Heinkel Postwar Fighters
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2007, 10:45:07 am »
Quote
After the War during the 50'  Siegfried Günter of the Ernst Heinkel AG , Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen, designed some  delta jet fighters :
- He 011 (1954) single jet for Egypt
- He 011 twin jets
- He S 7
- He 021 (or 012 ? ) (1955) for Spain ( Casa CH 101 in Spain )
- He 031 Florett (1957)
For all of them my knowledge is very scarce ,whith some  ? ; I have pics of them apart the He 021
Who have more info ?

The following three fighter-interceptors have been shortly described in Köhler’s “Ernst Heinkel – Pionier der Schnellflugzeuge” (“Die deutsche Luftfahrt“ vol 5), but the author causes confusion, speaking of a He 021 in the appendix and of a He 031 in the caption of the three-view drawing ...

He 011-   projected for Egypt (it’s your turn, hesham)
-   delta wing
-   1 x Heinkel He S 053 / 1 x 6,500 kp
-   span 11.50 m
-   length 14.75 m
-   wing area 57.50 m²
-   gross weight 12,000 kg
-   speed Mach 1.2
-   year 1956
-   Antonio has sent me the attached model picture (from AIR Enthusiast or AIR International?) – the width of the nose and the position of the air intakes is different compared with the drawing.

He 012 (= C 101 -> for Spain –> Antonio, is there more about this project in Manuel Lage’s “Hispano Suiza 1904 - 1972: Hombres, Empresas, Motores y Aviones”?)
-   delta wing
-   1 x Bristol Orpheus / 1 x 2,500 kp
-   span 6.78 m
-   length 9.95 m
-   wing area 20.00 m²
-   gross weight 3,900 kg
-   speed Mach 1.2
-   year 1956

He 021 (or He 031 ???) “Florett (i. e. ‘foil’)
-   Heinkel’s entry for the first German postwar competition requiring an interceptor (November 1956), the “Florett” was developed by a team headed by Siegfried Günter, this proposal was the winner, but the tactical requirement changed – the German Ministry of Defence wanted to get fighters with VTOL capability … (-> He 231 -> VJ 101A -> VJ 101C)
-   1 x D.H. Gyron Junior plus 1 x D.H. Spectre / 1 x 3,220 kp plus 3,632 kp
-   span 8.64 m
-   length 13.17 m
-   wing area 23.12 m²
-   gross weight 5,200 kg
-   speed Mach 1.2
-   year 1957

Heinkel S 7 – Heinkel S … is a engine designation for me, but I’m not very familiar with this line.


You may find interesting that Willy Radinger and Walter Schick in their "Secret Messerschmitt Projects" say the engine for the He-011, the aircraft designed for Egypt, was to have a static thrust of 5880 kp and 8100 kp with afterburner.

Anyway, I repeat my question regarding the He-011: Do you know anything on its planned armament? How many guns, if any? How big the bomb load? Was there any internal weapons bay?

Best regards,
Piotr

Offline richard

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Re: Heinkel Postwar Fighters
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2007, 02:16:46 pm »
Hello boxkite !
The " He 011 "  3 views from " Ernst Heinkel,pionier der Schnellflugzeuge " is in fact the He 012 quite different  from the He 011 for Egypt you show as " Heinkel "
The He-C 101 (CASA)  for Spain was  like the He 012 with a longer nose,giving something like the Mirage III 01
If I truth 45 years remembering,with the help of a sketch I drawn then ,the He 021 was a very different plane with front intake,looking as a Supersabre
with the cockpit forward as a Sukhoi17
And to put some more confusion ...In a "Der Flieger " of the 70" was a drawing of a TWIN jet He 011 ! Almost the same drawing is used in a patent for ...
Junkers/Gosslau .By the way ,I have found another patent for Heinkel/Gosslau and Junkers/Gosslau .




Offline Petrus

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Re: Heinkel Postwar Fighters
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2007, 03:07:48 am »
In the attached photo there is a mock up of a fighter that was being developed by Hispano Aviacion. Was it the He-012?

By the way, the Heinkel He-011, also known as He C-101 (I think this was a manufacturer's designation) was to be designated the C.7 by the Spanish Air Force. The project of the HA-300 by the Messerschmitt's team was to be designated the C.6. Look at http://www.designation-systems.net/non-us/spain.html

Best regards,
Piotr

Offline Antonio

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Re: Heinkel Postwar Fighters
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2007, 04:14:28 am »
Quote
In the attached photo there is a mock up of a fighter that was being developed by Hispano Aviacion. Was it the He-012?

Dear Petrus

Messerschmitt worked for HASA (Hispano Aviación Sociedad Anónima) while Heinkel worked for CASA (Construcciones Aeronáuticas Sociedad Anónima) on rival designs to Ejército del Aire's supersonic interceptor requirement. So if this mockup was photographed at HASA can't be the He-012. Please, I'm very interested, can you give more details about this pic. Did you get it from internet or it's scanned from your own documents?

Thanks a lot,

Antonio