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Author Topic: Blue Water  (Read 28565 times)

Offline alertken

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2010, 12:50:06 pm »
spark: Black Rock: tks. You are probably right that it faded with nearly-free Corporal.
English Electric Co.Ltd. in 1938 was a powerhouse (Ha!). The WW1 sites that had built aircraft were less relevant than their production engineering skills, in causing their selection as a "shadow" site, to build Hampden, Halifax, Vampire. That caused MAP/MoS to encourage them to buy Napier (1/43), Marconi (1946) and W.E.W Petter (9/44) to set up a DO and scheme a purejet Speed Bomber. RAE pimped GW in ’48, urging firms to “detach some of your best men to work on something which is a doubtful starter, politically vulnerable, and perhaps even unprofitable”. EE was awarded one of 3 (to be SAMs), as the sole vertically-integrated Prime, provided that they “would not have to put capital into the venture”. In practice remote from Group kin Napier (motor), Marconi (guidance), their reward at (ex-Napier) Luton was to “put up their own buildings - or more accurately (of MoS, funding in 1953) the operation”, adding a new Stevenage site, later core (to be)MBDA A.R.Adams,Good Company,BAC,1976,Pp4/28/61.

MoS (probably) funded study there after the 27 February 1950 US/UK (“Burns/Templer”)GW data Agreement resurrected British Army SSM interest; quite logically MoS invited EE(GW) to take on the IRBM in late-1954. Chairman Geo. (to be Lord)Nelson declined and DH Props. took it. Probably: Black Rock studies then lapsed; nevertheless, EE became SSM Sister Firm and Prime Contractor for Blue Water.

Offline Barrington Bond

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2010, 01:29:51 pm »
Stalwart/Blue Water in an ad in this thread.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4055.0/highlight,stalwart.html

Regards,
Barry
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Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2010, 08:49:08 am »
sv: UK digested V1 (as "Menace") but chose in 1947 to abandon such things as being bereft of military purpose. In April,1957 Defence Minister Sandys, he that chopped much, having inherited a 31/5/56 intent to acquire 100 Corporal F for the British Army of the Rhine, funded a UK replacement SSM. The issue was that Corporal's W-7 warhead would be held by USArmy at Dortmund, to be trucked to the Royal Artillery if/when POTUS so determined. Sandys' SSM's warhead was to be indigenous, from the Aldermaston AWR Establishment already overloaded trying to deliver fission devices while grasping how to do fusion. Blue Fox/Indigo Hammer (6KT) was tested 9/57, intended for Blue Water, (ex-Blue Slug) Seaslug 2 SSM and Blue Envoy/Bloodhound 3 SAM. EE(GW) Stevenage was Sister Firm on Corporal, Prime Contractor on Blue Water.

On 4 August, 1958 he made the UK/US Agreement for Co-operation on Uses of Atomic Energy for Mutual Defense Purposes. That ended UK's expensive attempts at nuclear design independence. With great relief UK moved to licenced/adaptation of US designs; Indigo Hammer lapsed. Corporal would be replaced in 1962 with 100 Douglas MGR-1B Honest John, also with W-7, also with EE(GW) as Sister Firm...yet in 8/1958 Blue Water continued. From its access to US data, AWRE was to attempt a "UK" warhead, so that BAOR could deploy a replacement for Honest John, to fire at London's, not Washington's Command.

In December,1960 Skybolt, core of "independent" UK Deterrence, was chopped. PM Macmillan secured Polaris. Dual key warhead controls were to govern Bundeswehr Honest Johns, too: US urged Sperry MGM-29A Sergeant SSM on everybody to “the tune of umpteen Mn.$”; UK declined as this was “not a European rocket. It’s a racket of US industry.” Mac was disingenuous on Blue Water: “a better weapon (but in 1962 it was still paper; political pressure on European NATO Nations to take Sergeant) was irresistible (on) favourable terms more common (for) washing machines (forcing) us to cancel (10/8/62) at considerable loss.” Mac, Memoirs/VI, P335. FRG took Sergeant; BAOR kept Honest John to 1976, then deployed 60 Vought MGM-52C Lance to 1992, US warheads for all at Dortmund.

Blue Water SSM's warhead was to have been a variant within genus WE.177, whose prime manifestation was to have been as TSR.2's gravity bomb. It is not clear that schemes for an (ex-EE) BAC Blue Water ASM for TSR.2 had funding or a warhead after (or indeed before) 8/62: PMN1's range Q may not have an A based on more than a sketch. (ex-Bristol) BAC ramjet X-12 Pandora ASM did have R&D funding, but no warhead, because, despite Strategic Deterrence going sub-surface, RAF blagged funds to retain a Task for a big gravity bomb. AWRE invented fusion WE.177B (deployed 9/1966, Vulcan B.2), which delayed/deferred fission WE.177A (deployed 6/1970 RN, 2/71 RAF Buccaneers). Blue Water/WE.177 would have been yet later; a "UK" warhead derived from US data could not have been supplied by UK to any export Customer, so total production would have been an expensive run of 60-100 for BAOR. So, chop Blue Water, enjoy washing machine terms for HJ, later Lance, inter-operable with, though subservient, to Allies.

Ken,

D you know if the BAC X-12 R&D funding was private or from the MoD/Treasury?

Offline alertken

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2010, 02:40:48 am »
MoS in 1958, then MoA, funding Bristol(GW), then BAC(GW) as Prime, embracing its Bristol ramjet. I think work did not proceed beyond bench bits; MoA encouraged BSEL to attend firstly to Odin for Sea Dart. There was no point in buying a UK-solo ASM for TSR.2 if resource conflicts in AWRE might cause us to fit a US warhead - take a better Bullpup. Schemes of Blue Water ASM fell in same category. Work ceased, with TSR.2, by April,1965; F-111K would carry lay-down stores.

There has been minuscule PV in UK GW due to Export Licence constraints on sales. Can think only of early work on Vickers Vigilant ATM; on Ferranti's (Rockwell AGM-130, ah, influenced) ASM, PGM-1/PGM-2 al Hakim, and on MBD's Scalp-derived Black Shaheen ASM, all taken up by UAE.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 02:45:05 am by alertken »

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2010, 05:04:05 am »
Thanks Ken,

Was the X-12 Pandora (or any other ASM for that matter) ever actually planned for the TSR-2, I was under the impression that the air launched Blue Water was never taken especially seriously and never received any funding. I thought that the only nuclear delivery option ever seriously considered for the TSR-2 was the twin internally carried WE177 free fall weapons with some consideration given to two additional external weapons following the 10kt tactical yield limit. Could TSR-2 have even lifted the X-12?

Beyond Blue Steel, Skybolt, and X-12 Pandora, did any other UK strategic stand-off missiles in the Cold War era receive any actual government funding or support? I am aware of the rather crude proposals bolt solid fuel rockets to WE177's and turn them into unguided ballistic missiles but realistically speaking these dont quite count!

And with yet another question, may I ask what your source is? One of my great criticisms of Gunton's work is his failure to discriminate between company sponsored paper sketches and actual government funded projects that underwent a degree of development work.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 05:07:52 am by sealordlawrence »

Offline Geoff_B

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2010, 07:03:17 am »
Lawrence

You should try and pick up the Paul Lucas TSR2 book as that covers the various missile proposals that were mooted bassed upon documented evidence from the archives. (Some certainly appear to be very silly  such as Slybolt and Polaris !!!)

However the restrictions of WE177 being a free fall bomb was noted and there were various developments for Air launched missiles to fit in or under TSR2 carrying a WE177 sized warhead. Paul's book covers them as does Chris Gibsons BSP:IV Missiles & Hypersonics. There was also proposals to have a nuclear variant of the Martel (Megaton Martel) as a method of stand off strike.

Cheers

Geoff

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2010, 07:27:48 am »
Thorvic,

I have BSPIV, although not the Paul Lucas TSR-2 book, the difficulty I have though is establishing which weapons were actually seriously considered and actually received funding. Megaton Martel for instance, seems to have been only a very basic discussion topic leading to the solid rocket powered, unguided, ballistic WE177 concept.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2010, 07:04:00 pm »
Thorvic,

I have BSPIV, although not the Paul Lucas TSR-2 book, the difficulty I have though is establishing which weapons were actually seriously considered and actually received funding. Megaton Martel for instance, seems to have been only a very basic discussion topic leading to the solid rocket powered, unguided, ballistic WE177 concept.
Could you please give a link for the Paul Lucas TSR-2 book?  Thanks.

Offline GTX

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2010, 08:39:32 pm »
Thorvic,

I have BSPIV, although not the Paul Lucas TSR-2 book, the difficulty I have though is establishing which weapons were actually seriously considered and actually received funding. Megaton Martel for instance, seems to have been only a very basic discussion topic leading to the solid rocket powered, unguided, ballistic WE177 concept.
Could you please give a link for the Paul Lucas TSR-2 book?  Thanks.

Evan, here you go:  http://www.amazon.com/BAC-TSR-2-Tomorrows-Eagle-Model/dp/0955185882

Regards,

Greg

Offline alertken

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2010, 02:33:33 am »
SLL: sources. I was in the Engine R&D section of MoA 1963-66 involved in what was directly funded. Power for X-12 was not. It is highly improbable that significant metal for any of these unfamiliar schemes was ever cut (though I could be unaware of power exercises funded through the platform firm, or done in RPE Westcott, or dead already).

Ministers by 1963 (Tory, not Labour) had become petrified of UK GW squander. House of Commons 59/60 Public Accounts Committee had roasted MoA on Seaslug (begun in the 1947-1949 timeframe, (to be) deployed 1962: “effective financial control was exercised at no stage (A) completely sorry story” S.R.Twigge,Early Devt of GW in UK ’40-60,Harwood,93,P225. “Final cost exceeded initial estimates by a factor of 19” Sir R.Way,MoS,J.Bruce-Gardyne,N.Lawson (yes, Nigella's Dad, the future Chancellor of the Exchequer!),The Power Game,Macmillan,76,P25. The Deterrent had been entrusted in 1955 to Avro (GW) Blue Steel: “few (contracts caused) such bitter feelings (as) even in ’56 (Avro puffed 1,000n.m. The view in MoS was that if they) could not perfect (100n.m.) how could they (do) 10xthat? (Avro Weapons Research Divn, with many ex-RAE staff:) weak management structure (criticisms) recriminations (were) common parlance” H.Wynn,RAF Nuclear Deterrent Forces, HMSO,1994, P202/4. The fix, in January,59, was for UK to join the USAF Reqt., won in June by Douglas WS138A (to be GAM-87A, AGM-48) Skybolt ALBM. In the flurry after that was chopped, December,1962, those weird Slams listed in BSP/Hypersonics were mooted, but the solution was not kite dreams but a low-risk bigger bang on the US-derived gravity WE.177.

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2010, 11:51:29 am »
Ken,

Certainly the TSR-2 WE177B with Polaris in submarines seems like a pretty sensible solution to the UK nuclear delivery problem in the post V-Bomber period. Just to clarify, what do you mean by 'power funding'? Did the X12 ramjet get R&D funding or not?

Are you aware of any other UK strategic delivery proposals getting funding?

Thank you for your contribution, your knowledge and experience is most welcome indeed.

Offline Skyraider3D

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2010, 03:30:20 pm »
Would anyone have a picture of the exhaust of the Blue Water missile by any chance?

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Offline Barrington Bond

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2010, 12:26:52 am »
What do you mean by exhaust? There is an advert of the time showing it in the air just after take-off but it's not particularly of high quality.

Regards,
Barry
"It hasn't squeaked in a week!"

Offline Skyraider3D

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2010, 04:52:00 pm »
Yes, just the tail pipe. All pictures I have seen of the ground-launched Blue Water show it from the front, and all air-launched ones show it with a tail cone. I just like to know what the tail end looked like precisely (for 3D modelling purposes). The advert you mention might help.

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Offline aircav

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2010, 10:42:41 am »
Is this any good ?