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Author Topic: MiG-29 Avionics  (Read 40435 times)

Offline Dilbert

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2006, 03:23:29 pm »
Dilbert, are not L-005S based in an altogether much more advanced technology that L-203BI?

The only difference that I'm aware of between Sorbtsiya and Gardeniya is that Sorbtsiya has a steerable-beam antenna (made partly out of balsa wood and styrofoam).

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AFAIK, and I have received some confirmation of this (althorugh from no Russian source but a good source anyway), they use Cross-Polarisation Deception Jamming (Cross-Eye), they can jam even 10 different radar emission (pulse, pulse doppler) at the same time (Gardeniya-1FUE in Su-27SK is limited to 2), contrary to Gardeniya, Sorbtsiya-S was considered not ready for export till 2001...it's cool and it can jam both front and rear hemisphery :D.

If Sorbtsiya was capable of cross-pole or cross-eye, they would be advertising cross-pole or cross-eye, instead of "terrain bounce."  I'm not sure how to interpret the rest - Gardeniya is also a 360-degree system, I don't know what "cool" means, and anyone with cable TV will surely be aware that it's easy to have hundreds of channels, and still nothing but crap on any of them.

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Check that Su-25TM uses an improved set (Omul, based on DRFM technology also used by MSP-418K from the Kedr EW Suite), first tested in 1998.

Does it advertise any actual new capability against the Patriot SAM?  Or, they're just selling the same old stuff, using fashionable new digital circuits instead of analog?

Note that Su-25TM was displayed carrying Kh-31A/P as well, and that turned out to be a fantasy also.

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Su-25 used old and capable (and combat tested by long time) SPS-141MVG/MVG-E :)

"...according to Sukhoi," as usual.  Of course, you'll never see a photo of it, because the engineers decided to wire only the mid-wing Su-25 hardpoint for it, making it practically impossible to take off on a combat mission due to unbalanced weight and drag.

It's just the same old story from the cancelled Mietch radar for the Su-27, or the cancelled L-001 for anither example.  Sukhoi simply doesn't know how to co-operate with electronics companies - they do aerodynamics, and everybody else can go to hell.   ;)

Offline Pit

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2006, 04:19:48 pm »
Dilbert there is some information on Su-25K's SPS-141MVG-E installation from Eastern Europe:



SPS-141MVG-E panel on Su-25K, photo by MrDetonator.

You can ask him if the thing was ever put on the plane or not.

Combat performance was tested on Iraq.

About DRFM, you can check their page:

www.cnirti.ru

Offline Dilbert

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2006, 01:51:35 pm »
About DRFM, you can check their page:

www.cnirti.ru

Interesting...  It claims that Gardeniya has terrain-bounce capability, just like Sorbtsiya.   :o

Note that the Su-27K also "bravely" omitted the MiG-29K's compatibility with the AA-12 because, "it was crap" - which they immediately proceeded to mount on every Sukhoi aircraft developed since, right through to include ground-pounders.  The Su-34's array radar was rejected by the Russian Air Force because the Su-27KUB's Zhuk (again, borrowed from the MiG-29K/M) proved so vastly superior.  The examples go on and on...  At this point, I wouldn't trust Sukhoi if they told us that the sky was blue.

Offline Pit

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2006, 01:59:21 pm »
Hey Dilb, maybe we can move this discussion to other topic?

I'm interested on your remarks on some soviet/russian ECM systems, and also on Su-27IB's new radar (I know B-004 was rejected but not that such decission was take on the basis of Zhuk-MSE R&D works)...

Do you agree?

Offline Vadifon

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2006, 05:59:37 am »
Возможности "Гардении 1ФУ":
Работа в азимуте +/-60 (в ППС и ЗПС), по углу места +/-30.
Виды помех:
-высокочастотные шумовые
-низкочастотные доплеровские шумовые
-мерцающие
-программа из нескольких типов помех по заранее известным РЭС (РГС).
Работа станции оказывает негативное влияние на БРЛС и СПО.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2006, 06:48:40 am »
Terrain Bounce was a feature of the SPS-141MVG , so its hardly surprising that its a feature of Gardeniya too.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
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Offline Dilbert

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2006, 07:38:26 am »
I would have thought that to specifically advertise terrain bounce would require a steerable directive antenna, which I thought only Sorbtsiya had.  Otherwise, any ECM is capable of terrain bounce - just fly low.

Maybe next, the advertisements will start telling us which aircraft feature a shadow.   ;)

Offline Vadifon

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2006, 09:05:09 am »
дополнение:
в отличии от "Гардении 1ФУЭ" (Су-27СК), "Гардения 1ФУ (Миг-29) имеет меньшую номенклатуру помех и работает только по одной произвольно выбранной РЭС(ответная помеха).
« Last Edit: September 04, 2006, 09:09:24 am by Vadifon »

Offline loco

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2006, 09:18:24 am »
thanks to all for the info  8)

the next question i have, is about
how does actually the datalink is transmitted between the Mig-29 and the R-77?
for some people the datalink signal is embeded within the radar electro-magnetic pulses (meaning, the actual radar antennae is the one transmitting)
to me, it is transmitted using a separate antennae array, such as the Epaulet (for example) or similar
i've been looking all over the net and found nothing about  :'(
thanks to all

da loco.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2006, 09:20:54 am by loco »

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2006, 10:50:50 am »
Pending new material, I'm reposting stuff from my old webpage.

N019 / Rubin / RPLK-29 / S-29 / Sapfir-29
NATO: "Slot Back"
OKB: Phazotron NIIR


N019 radar on bench

Based on the work undertaken by NPO Istok on the experimental Soyuz radar program, Phazotron NIIR were tasked in the mid 70s with producing a modern radar for the MiG-29. Originally intended to have a planar array antenna and digital signal processing, and a range of at least 100km against a fighter target, it soon became clear that this would not be achievable, at least not in a radar that would fit in the MiG-29's nose.


N019EA radar mounted on export MiG-29

Phazotron NIIR reverted to a version of the twist cassegrain antenna used successfully on the Sapfir-23ML, and analogue signal processor technologies similar to their earlier designs, with a NII Argon- designed Ts100 digital computer.


N019 block diagram

The N019 radar weighs around 385kg in total. It is a pulse-doppler radar operating in X band around 3cm wavelength. It uses three basic operating regimes. High PRF radar mode for optimal detection of closing targets, medium PRF mode for optimal detection of receding targets, and an interleaved high/medium PRF mode for all aspect detection. It uses a guard channel for sidelobe suppression. SARH Illumination and main channels use different frequencies within the X band, and are multiplexed in time. Individual aircraft can be preset on the ground to different frequencies to avoid mutual interference during group operations.


N019 Master oscillator

Scanning cycle times are 2.5-5 seconds depending on mode.

Beam width is 3.5, which determines the minimum separation of two targets in azimuth.

The radar beam is stabilised up to 120 in roll and +40/-30 in pitch.


N019 Transmitter

N019 is a hybrid analogue/digital design, with an NII Argon Ts100 digital processing unit. The Ts100 processor can achieve 170,000 operations per second, has 8K RAM and 136k ROM, and is built using medium scale integration ICs.


N019 Ts100 processor

It is based on the proprietary POISK architecture developed at NII Argon, which allows adapting of the instruction set to control system functions, by expanding the basic instruction set with microcodes inherent in specific tasks. Compared to machines using the same elements but a generic instruction set (e.g. the ES EVM architecture Argon-15A of the MiG-31) processing capability was enhanced by 1.5 to 2.5 times and the code 3 to 5 times more compact, making Ts100 much cheaper to produce. The Ts100 computer weighs 32 kg.


N019 Microwave receiver

Radar Modes (Description from N-019EB export variant manual)

Radar scan limits in azimuth: 65
Radar scan limits in elevation: +56, -36

Mode "V" (Vstryehchya) : Encounter

Encounter mode is the main search mode used in interception, as it gives the longest detection ranges and the least false returns.

It uses a High PRF mode which can detect closing targets only in the velocity range of 230 - 2500km/h at altitudes from 30m to 23,000m. The display is calibrated to a maximum range of 150km.

Target can be up to 10,000m above or 6,000m below the host aircraft's own altitude.

A typical 3 sq m RCS fighter target can be detected at 50-70 km and tracked at 40-60 km. If the target is flying below 3,000m reduces the detection range to 40-70 km and tracking range to 30-60km.

Two basic scan patterns are used.



When the system is under direct GCI control via datalink, a 6 bar elevation raster scan is used. This scan covers a sector of 40 in azimuth at ranges up to 30km, 30 at ranges of 30-55 km, and 20 above 55km within the scan limits given above. The distance to target and other useful information is supplied by GCI command, and the direction of the scan is automatically cued by CGI command towards the desired target.



When the system is not under direct GCI control via datalink, a 4 bar raster scan mode is used to acquire a target manually. This mode scans a constant 50 in azimuth, with the pilot controlling the direction of the scan. It is expected that the rough direction to the target will be given by ground control via voice commands.

There is no scan pattern for full azimuth range scanning. The 130 scan area is divided into 3 sectors. Left sector is -65 to -15, centre sector covers -25 to +25, right sector from +15 to +65, giving overlapping coverage of the full 130 scan limits. Individual targets can be resolved providing they are separated in azimuth and 5-6km in range. Range measuring error of a single target can be as high as 8km, which should be recalled when comparing measured target range with that supplied by GCI controller.

Minimum measurable range in this mode is 5km.

Lockon and transition to tracking mode takes 2 to 7 seconds in Encounter mode.

Note that in Encounter mode, a target that changes direction to a tail-on engagement may be be lost even when in tracking mode, if it is no longer closing.

Mode "D" (Dogon): Pursuit



A medium PRF mode usable for both headon and tailchase engagements. In practise it is used only when necessary, as it is prone to displaying false targets from ground clutter especially at low altitudes. Marsh land, marshy forests and flood plains give greatest clutter problems. When multiple false returns are present, the pilot should compare visible targets with the calculated target range supplied by datalink from GCI controller to determine the correct target.

Display is calibrated to a maximum range of 50km.

Detects targets from 30 m to 23,000 m altitude receding at speeds of 210 - 2200 km/h.

Target can be up to 10,000m above or 6,000m below.

Range against a typical 3 sq m RCS fighter target is 25-35km search and 20-35km tracking when host aircraft is flying above 3000m. When flying from 1000m to 3000m altitude, range is reduced to 20-35km search and 18-35km track. When flying at 500-1000m achievable range is just 15-30km search and 13-25km tracking.

When target range is below 20km, scan coverage is 40 in azimuth, 16.5 in elevation.



If target range is above 20km, scan coverage is 30 in azimuth, 13.5 in elevation.




Individual targets can be resolved providing they are separated 3-4km in range in Pursuit mode.

Errors in range measurement can be as high as 8km, but there is no minimum range.

Lockon and transition to tracking mode takes 1-4 seconds in Pursuit mode.

When "Cooperation" mode is selected, the radar is automatically switched to an equivalent mode to pursuit, scanning with the IRST.

Mode "SP" (Svobodnoye Prostranstvo) Free Search

According to Russian pilots this mode was only found on early production Russian MiG-29s. It was a search mode, and was removed on later production batches. It was not present on any export MiG-29s. The name suggests it might have been a non-lookdown mode, but this is speculation.

Mode "AVT" (Aootomaht) Automatic

Automatic mode uses a mixture of High and Medium PRF to give optimal all aspect detection. Each line of the scan is alternated between high and medium PRF, unless range is under 10km when only medium PRF is used.

It generates a display calibrated to a maximum range of 100km. Targets can be theoretically detected at similar ranges to Encounter and Pursuit modes according to targets direction of movement..

In Automatic mode tracking of a target should continue regardless of target direction provided rate of closure/opening is sufficiently high.

It is considered by pilots to be quite problematic, overloading the data computer and generating numerous false returns. It is primarily intended for use when lacking information from the ground station concerning the target's direction.

Track-while-flyby submode is not available in AVT mode. AVT mode provides the same functionality automatically.

"SNP" (Soprovazhdenie Na Prokhode) Track-While-Flyby mode

Track-While-Flyby submode can be set in Encounter or Pursuit modes only.

Track-while-flyby mode allows the simultaneous tracking of up to 10 targets, measuring their angular position, range and rate of closure. The target with the highest rate of closure/range ratio is designated the most dangerous, and automatically marked on the display. The pilot can override the automatic selection if he decides on another target. After switching to track-while-flyby mode it is not clear if the radar continues volume scanning, and it may be that only the (up to 10) tracked targets are followed. Track-while-flyby mode will automatically follow the target marked most dangerous (automatically or by pilot override) in elevation, within the elevation limits of the radar, without pilot intervention.

The TSVM computer calculates missile launch parameters for the most dangerous target. As the range to target approaches the calculated maximum missile launch range, the radar will stop scanning for targets and transition to an 8 by 40 box pattern scan in the direction of the designated target. If the target is located, the radar will transition to single target tracking mode, and all other contacts are discarded. If no target is found within 3 cycles, the radar returns to scanning mode.

Track-while-flyby mode is intended to allow missile launch at maximum range with minimal warning to the target, by switching to true single target tracking mode as late as possible.

Mode "BL BOY" (Bleezhniy Boy) Close Combat



Close Combat mode overrides all other modes. It uses a + 37/ -13 fixed directly ahead vertical scan that is 6 wide (2 scan lines) with a 2.5 sec scan cycle and provides semiautomatic target acquisition. The closest target present in the scan area will be locked when pressing the lockon button without having to designate it.

Close Combat mode can lockon from 450 m to 10km in range, and track a locked on target down to 250m.

It is not slewable, but fixed straight ahead only. Targets can be tracked in a closure rate range from +300 meters/second to -500 meters/second including co-speed targets.

Lockon and transition to tracking mode takes 1-2 seconds in Close Combat mode.

N019 is the USSR standard model.

N019EA is the version supplied to Warsaw Pact countries. Lacks "SP" mode.

N019EB is an export variant for general export. More downgraded. Less capable TS100.02.06 digital processor. Also lacks "SP" mode.

N019M is an updated version, developed as a response to the compromise of the N-019 radar by a US spy. Tested from 1986, it entered limited production in 1991. Slightly lighter than the N-019 at 350kg. N019 has increased ECM resistance, new software, and a more advanced built-in monitoring system. A new Ts101M computer relieves the processor overload problems of the N019, more than doubling capacity to 400,000 operations per second whilst weighing less, just 19kg, and with doubled MTBF of 1000h compared to the 500h of the Ts100. N019M allows two targets to be engaged by active radar homing missiles simultaneously. Range increased slightly to 80km. Originally intended to be fitted to the existing MiG-29 fleet as an upgrade, about 22 aircraft with N019M are thought to have entered service with the VVS.

N019ME Topaz Export version of Topaz, slightly downgraded. All Indian MiG-29s have been upgraded to this standard.

N019MP is a further modified radar proposed by Phazotron for the MiG-29SMT program. It used a Baguet series processor. The maximum range remained the about the same, but the radar could detect 20 targets simultaneously, track four, and engage two. The radar had also basic air-to-ground functions, like ground mapping mode, acquisition and engagement of sea targets with radar homing missiles, and ground targets with unguided weaponry under any weather conditions, day and night. The NO19MP could generate maps of 15x15, 24x24, 50x50 or 77x77km with a resolution of 15m. Radar imagery could be transmitted via datalink to GCI centres or A-50 AWACS aircraft. Targets visible on the radar map could be designated by the pilot(using a joystick) or ground controller, and used to cue TV-guided missile seekers, whose higher resolution imagery can then be displayed or transmitted to the GCI or A-50 controller as well. Performance against slow flying helicopters was improved as well as resistance to jamming. Uses Doppler beam sharpening techniques. Now superceded by N019M1.

N019M1 This latest radar upgrade proposal from Phazotron retains the antenna and transmitter block assemblies but replaces pretty much all the rest of the radar. It introduces new fully programmable digital processing, giving 30-50% greater range in air-to-air search and track. Improved track-while-scan mode, with the ability to continue volume search for new targets while tracking 10. 4 targets can engaged at once with R-77 missiles. 4 different close combat modes are available. Has raid assessment mode, and target class recognition. Air to surface modes include Real beam, DBS, SAR (5x5m), and moving target detection. Can handoff target data to the Kh-31A/Kh-35A anti-shipping missiles. Allows target handoff to TV guided weapons. Collision alarm system. It is being touted as a low cost upgrade for existing MiG-29 operators.

Phazotron-Ukraine are offering a UM522 low noise reciever to replace the NO19-09 UHF receiver. This low cost drop-in replacement part increases range 10-20%.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2006, 11:11:13 am by overscan »
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline PiBu

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2006, 12:13:53 am »
dilbert said:
Quote
Su-25 used old and capable (and combat tested by long time) SPS-141MVG/MVG-E 


"...according to Sukhoi," as usual.  Of course, you'll never see a photo of it, because the engineers decided to wire only the mid-wing Su-25 hardpoint for it, making it practically impossible to take off on a combat mission due to unbalanced weight and drag.


Here is the picture of the SPS-141 on Su-25. Note, this was made in usual unit during usual flight day and not at an air show.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 05:23:22 am by overscan »

Offline mrdetonator

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2006, 04:03:58 am »
"...according to Sukhoi," as usual.  Of course, you'll never see a photo of it, because the engineers decided to wire only the mid-wing Su-25 hardpoint for it, making it practically impossible to take off on a combat mission due to unbalanced weight and drag.
Pibu you can not be serious, that a soviet engineer would design something without a practical use. What a joke is that?  ;D :D ;) The Su-25 can maintain a straight forward flight without banking in the whole flight envelope with following asymmetrical loads.
1. up to 320kg on wing hardpoints 2 or 10
2. up to 380kg on wing hardpoints 3 or 9
3. up to 500kg on wing hardpoints 4 or 8
This has been achieved by using trim tabs located on all control surfaces, especially on the ailerons. The pilot can then easily trim the aircraft to neutral. The SPS-141 weights with cabling only 180kg,  therefore I do not see any problem to take-off, fly and land the aircraft. Placing the SPS-141 to the wing hardpoint no.3  has also some reasons (e.g. ECM antenna radiation patterns). At last the drag is the last factor the su-25 should worry about. The Su-25 is a flying tank and remember tanks don`t rely on aerodynamics. ;)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 04:06:54 am by mrdetonator »

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2006, 05:22:38 am »
PiBu was quoting Dilbert I believe. I modified his post to make it clearer.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
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Offline PiBu

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2006, 07:04:25 am »
PiBu was quoting Dilbert I believe. I modified his post to make it clearer.

You're right, Overscan. Thanks for modifing my post.

Offline mrdetonator

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2006, 08:19:49 am »
PiBu was quoting Dilbert I believe. I modified his post to make it clearer.

You're right, Overscan. Thanks for modifing my post.
What a misunderstanding, somehow I felt I was responding to wrong person. I`m sorry PiBu, you wouldn`t say that nonsense.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2007, 05:52:44 pm by mrdetonator »