Those mysterious F-110+ designations

Jos Heyman

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There is an interesting ariticle on the Mig-21 tested by the USAF as YF-110 in Airforce Magazine of June 2010: http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2010/June%202010/0610doughnut.aspx
 
Peter Merlin's fascinating new book for Arcadia, Area 51, has a listing for some of the mysterious numbers seemingly missing in the sequence between the F-110 Phantom II/Spectre and the F-117. Does anyone have any thoughts on these?

YF-110B = MiG-21F-13
YF-110C
YF-110L
YF-112C
YF-113A = MiG-17F "Have Drill"
YF-113B
YF-113E
YF-114C = MiG-17F "Have Ferry"
YF-114D
YF-116A

The three MiGs are illustrated in the book; the other designations are just listed. Does anyone have any hard information on these.

And from this list it is easy to see how the next available designation, which became official and public, would be the F-117.
 
Oh yes, I forgot that Merlin also shows the Boeing Bird of Prey as the YF-118G!
 
gatoraptor said:
Peter Merlin's fascinating new book for Arcadia, Area 51, has a listing for some of the mysterious numbers seemingly missing in the sequence between the F-110 Phantom II/Spectre and the F-117. Does anyone have any thoughts on these?

Not that mysterious. The practice started with the RED HATS and RED EAGLES programs. When the SENIOR TREND program was gearing up, they moved into Tonopah, which the RED EAGLES program had been using, and were managed out of some of the same classified program offices (SENIOR TREND ended up paying for a lot of much needed improvements at Tonopah).
Steve Davies' Red Eagles book talks a bit about how the designations were assigned to aircraft in that program:
http://books.google.com/books?id=A9WbukQb_xUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=red+eagles&hl=en&ei=h2bYTtvdGqOriAKD3tnNCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=YF-110B&f=false
 
Nice topic! Here are some additions:

The information below was collected over the years from various sources and is to be taken with caution, as we have presently no means to verify any of it.

YF-110
: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21F-13 "Fishbed-F" used in HAVE DOUGHNUT evaluation program
YF-110B: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21F-13 "Fishbed-C/E" (serials 75-001, 75-004 and 75-010); no data
YF-110C: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21F-13 "Fishbed" (actually a Chengdu J-7B variant built in China)
YF-110D: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21MF "Fishbed-J"
YF-112/C
: suggested candidates for a YF-112 designation include a Sukhoi Su-22 and (less likely) a MiG-19.
YF-113B: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23BN "Flogger-F".
YF-113C: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-17F "Fresco-C" (actually a Chinese-built J-5), used in HAVE PRIVILEGE program.
YF-113E: Mikoyan MiG-23MS "Flogger-E".
YF-113G: US-built stealth prototype of the early 1990s; no data.
YF-114D: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-17PF "Fresco-D" (serial 75-008).
YF-115: perhaps used for the Sukhoi Su-7 "Fitter".
YF-116A: perhaps used for the Mikoyan MiG-25 "Foxbat".
YF-117D: Northrop BSAX prototype for TACIT BLUE program.
YF-117E: quoted but no information.
YF-118: perhaps used for the Mikoyan MiG-29 "Fulcrum".
F-121: dubious designation for rumored General Dynamics "Sentinel" fighter-bomber.

It is also said that the McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing) Bird of Prey received an F-1** designation.
 
It is generally held that none of these are formal designations but more 'codes' that were being used for administrative purposes - in particular for the USAF flight logs.
 
Jos Heyman said:
It is generally held that none of these are formal designations but more 'codes' that were being used for administrative purposes - in particular for the USAF flight logs.

That's how they started out, but later they became sanctioned. The organization that allocated designations was read in on the SAPs by the program office that controlled them, and appropriate security measures were set up at that organization to handle supporting the SAPs. IIRC this was done around the time of Gen. Bond's death.
 
"It is generally held that none of these are formal designations ". Whether they are "FORMAL" or not seems unimportant to me. What is important is that the numbering sequence was in fact continued and pilots flew aircraft types using those numbers in their logbook. I really want to know what those aircraft really were-Foreign types for evaluation and/or dissimilar type training or possibly some black programs or whatever.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob
 
The practice of using non-standard designations began with Project HAVE DOUGHNUT in 1968. Project pilots Fred Cuthill and Joe Jordan were trying to figure out how to log the flight time in the AF Form 5. For security reasons, they obviously couldn't list the airplane as a MiG-21. The solution was to use a designation that had not been previously used, and would never be assigned to a production aircraft. The "Century Series" designations had been phased out in 1962, and only one designation was needed for the project. They picked YF-110B since YF-110A had been briefly used to designate the Air Force version of the F4H-1 before it was formally designated F-4C.

Now, a lot of people would like to draw a straight line between the YF-110B and the YF-117A with all the known and missing designations in a neat row, but it didn't work that way. The numbers were not assigned in any linear or logical order. In 1969, two MiG-17F (Lim-5M) aircraft were acquired for evaluation purposes. Although the two airplanes were physically identical and were sometimes even flown together on dual sorties, they each received separate designations and project names. The HAVE DRILL project aircraft was designated YF-113A. Because the AF Form 5, at that time, did not accommodate tail numbers, the HAVE FERRY project aircraft was designated YF-114C.

In 1970, Wendell Shawler flew a Chinese-built MiG-17F (J-5) at Phu Cat Air Base, Vietnam under Project HAVE PRIVILEGE. He used the designation YF-113C. This designation was recycled in the early 1990s for a completely different aircraft. I suspect the later generation of Red Hats was unaware that the YF-113C designation had been used previously.

Project HAVE GLIB, established in 1970, became the umbrella program for early foreign materiel evaluation (FME) projects. The YF-114C was joined by a MiG-17PF (designated YF-114D), and several MiG-21s. Since, by this time the AF Form 5 had been modified to accommodate tail numbers, the MiG-21s were all designated YF-110B.

In 1973, foreign aircraft evaluations were placed under the HAVE IDEA umbrella program. HAVE GLIB apparently continued, in some form, at least into the 1980s. Circumstantial evidence suggests a connection to foreign radar studies. HAVE IDEA was replaced by HAVE PHOENIX in 1986. Individual aircraft are often associated with additional project names (HAVE PAD, HAVE BOAT, etc.).

The Red Hats refer to the FME aircraft as "classified prototypes." Although they are not true prototypes, the airplanes are used for experimental and developmental testing (the latter being more along the lines of operational test and evaluation). Non-standard designations were also applied advanced technology demonstrators and full-scale development prototypes of domestic manufacture (YF-117A, YF-118G, etc.). Recently, a few two-digit designations have surfaced, as well.

Confusion about a "classified prototype" called the YF-113G results from the fact that the only known pilots to have flown it were Red Hats, but the "Classified Flight Test Squadron" that operated it reportedly took the airplane "from design to first flight" (suggesting a new type rather than a foreign production model).

So, we have identical aircraft with different designations and different aircraft with identical designations. We have designations assigned out of numerical sequence and some apparently skipped altogether (YF-115 ?). For what it's worth, below is a list of known designations.


YF-110B MiG-21-F13 HAVE DOUGHNUT (tail number 80695, later 007) ex-Iraqi AF, 1968; HAVE GLIB, HAVE IDEA

YF-110B MiG-21-F13 HAVE GLIB, HAVE IDEA (tail number 004), ex-Indonesian AF, built from parts, 1972-????

YF-110B MiG-21-F13 HAVE GLIB, HAVE IDEA (tail number 010), ex-Indonesian AF, built from parts, 1972-????

YF-110C MiG-21-F13/J-7B CONSTANT PEG (various tail numbers), ex-Indonesian AF, built from parts

YF-110D MiG-21MF HAVE COAT and CONSTANT PEG (?), 1980-1988

YF-110E Classified aircraft, HAVE PHOENIX, stores carriage and separation, circa 1991

YF-110L Classified aircraft, HAVE PHOENIX, stores carriage and separation, circa 1986-1992

YF-110M Classified aircraft, HAVE PHOENIX, stores carriage, separation, envelope expansion, circa 1986-1993

YF-112C Possibly Su-17 HAVE UP, 1979 [unconfirmed]

YF-113A MiG-17F/Lim-5M HAVE DRILL (tail number 055), ex-Syrian AF

YF-113B MiG-23BN HAVE PAD, ex-Egyptian AF, 1978

YF-113C MiG-17F/J-5 HAVE PRIVILEGE (tail number 1024), Chinese-built, Cambodian Khmer AF, 1970

YF-113C Classified aircraft tested circa 1992 as part of HAVE PHOENIX

YF-113E MiG-23MS HAVE PAD, ex-Egyptian AF, 1978-1987

YF-113G Classified prototype aircraft, flying qualities, avionics, circa 1993-1995, possibly a FME program

YF-113H Classified aircraft tested circa 1987-1988 as part of HAVE PHOENIX

YF-114C MiG-17F/Lim-5M HAVE FERRY (tail number 002), ex-Syrian AF, HAVE GLIB, and CONSTANT PEG

YF-114D MiG-17PF (tail number 008), HAVE GLIB, HAVE IDEA, circa 1972

YF-116A Classified aircraft (HAVE LOAN ?), HAVE PHOENIX, performance, envelope expansion, avionics, propulsion, circa 1991-1992

YF-117A Lockheed SENIOR TREND FSD aircraft (tail numbers 780 through 784), 1981-2008

F-117A SENIOR TREND production aircraft (tail numbers 785 through 843), 1982-2008

YF-117D Northrop TACIT BLUE stealth technology demonstrator, 1982-1985

YF-118G Boeing Bird of Prey stealth technology demonstrator. 1996-1999

YF-24A Classified prototype aircraft, circa 1997

YF-43B Classified prototype aircraft, circa ????
 
:eek: Whisperstream, you've really made my day!! Welcome to this forum and I'm looking forward to more great contributions of yours... ;)
 
Now I'm anxious to see what these HAVE PHOENIX, YF-24, and YF-43 projects are all about now that Whisperstream made that post. I will now patiently wait until said projects are declassified. I'm pretty sure I can live long enough to see the day. ;D B)
 
HAVE PHOENIX is simply the continuation of the FME program. For some reason it changed from HAVE IDEA to HAVE PHOENIX in 1986. When CONSTANT PEG shut down in 1988, I thought that the FME programs were winding down, but they have become the highest priority program at Groom Lake.

In October 1992 the 6513th Test Squadron (Red Hats) inactivated, but immediately reactivated as 413th Test Squadron (later 413th Flight Test Squadron). The 413FLTS eventually came to be associated with electronic warfare testing. When the 413FLTS was inactivated in May 2004 as part of a consolidation and realignment of EW assets, remaining personnel and assets were transferred to Electronic Warfare Directorate North Base (412TW/EWAH). The Red Hats, however, continue to conduct FME projects, apparently as an unnumbered squadron at Groom Lake.

The 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron (Red Eagles) inactivated in July 1990. Some assets were reconstituted as Detachment 2 of the 57th Fighter Weapons Wing. The unit, known since October 1996 as Detachment 3 of the 53rd Test and Evaluation Group has also been involved with FME projects at Groom Lake. The mission of DET 3, 53TEG, is to be the representative for Air Combat Command interest in USAF foreign materiel exploitation and training opportunities with Air Force Materiel Command.
 
Interestingly, a new "Nevada Aerospace Hall of Fame" website is in preparation and due next Christmas. The subtitle for the site is "Recognizing the Aerospace Legacy of the State of Nevada."

http://www.nvahof.org/_original_site/

The site has a page entitled "NVAHOF VIRTUAL MUSEUM - PROJECT HAVE GLIB" which for now is empty, but we can imagine that by the end of the year, we ought to be able to learn a little more about this (and possibly other) classified evaluation programs that took place at "Area 51."

http://www.nvahof.org/_original_site/have_glib.html

header.png
 
Hi,


a strange reference about F-113 in Air Pictorial magazine of 1955,but with no details,
is that weird ?.
 

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I would not attach too much credibility to that brief mention as the time frame is totally out and that was the time that designations were considered 'holy' and were not stuffed around with. In 1955 they were talking about F-106 and F-107. F-110 was 1962 vintage, and F-111 in 1964 - or thereabouts.
Perhaps this issue of Air Pictorial was issued on Friday 13 of some month in 1955.... :)
 
CJGibson said:
F-113? looks like FIB to me.

Chris


I looked up FIB and came up with this: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fib

I'm not sure what Illinois has to do with it...
 
FIB = Fill In the Blank


No, the Irish have also nothing to do with this abbreviation. ;)
 
In mid-1980s DTESA obtained number of MiGs from Poland for use in clandestine research programmes and for realistic threat simulation during exercises, including Lim-2 (822 red, c/n 1B 008-22, spurious sand/green camo), SBLim-1 (038 red, white upper surfaces/deep blue undersurfaces, black horse's head logo on fin, no national insignia) (ex Poland AF 6038 Red, c/n 1A 06-038) and SBLim-2 (71 Red, Soviet markings) (possibly ex N271JM, c/n 242271). Any YF-11? designation? Any photos?
 
USAF (DTESA) secret YF-11x's

http://www.myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00879629&size=large
http://www.myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00879630&size=large
 
any info about HAVE UP (Su-17) and HAVE BOAT (Shenyang F-6C) program please?
 
A claim that the 'Amarillo Triangles' are the 'F-119'...
from the link posted here :-

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,21745.msg223433.html#msg223433

'"The hunt for the Flying Triangles is charging a head with the revelation that it is an off shoot of the cancelled Navy A-12 Avenger II and is called the F-119A. In reality it is a stealth cargo and SEAL team insertion craft. From what we, "The Interceptors" can surmise, it is a larger version of the Navy A-12, about 70% the size of the B-2A Stealth Bomber and is now operational.'

cheers,
Robin.
 
Jos Heyman said:
I would not attach too much credibility to that brief mention as the time frame is totally out and that was the time that designations were considered 'holy' and were not stuffed around with. In 1955 they were talking about F-106 and F-107. F-110 was 1962 vintage, and F-111 in 1964 - or thereabouts.
Perhaps this issue of Air Pictorial was issued on Friday 13 of some month in 1955.... :)
I'm going to guess that this might have been a typo and perhaps the magazine meant.....F-103?
 
robunos said:
'"The hunt for the Flying Triangles is charging a head with the revelation that it is an off shoot of the cancelled Navy A-12 Avenger II and is called the F-119A. In reality it is a stealth cargo and SEAL team insertion craft. From what we, "The Interceptors" can surmise, it is a larger version of the Navy A-12, about 70% the size of the B-2A Stealth Bomber and is now operational.'

So they're saying this is the result of the Senior Citizen program? Or a follow up?
 
F.113 - F.1B or F.11B ? Grumman Tiger perhaps ?
 
May be it was a typo, but as the XF-103 was ordered in July 1954 I doubt if that is the case.

Coming back to the F-113, an article by Walter Boyne in Air Force Magazine of August 2011 makes mention of the F-113 designation having been used for Mig-23s obtained for various sources, including Egypt, Syria and Cambodia (these countries were mentioned in various other sources).
 
Jos Heyman said:
May be it was a typo, but as the XF-103 was ordered in July 1954 I doubt if that is the case.

Coming back to the F-113, an article by Walter Boyne in Air Force Magazine of August 2011 makes mention of the F-113 designation having been used for Mig-23s obtained for various sources, including Egypt, Syria and Cambodia (these countries were mentioned in various other sources).


From TD Barnes' "MiGs Over Nevada" (http://goo.gl/i49EzO):


YF-110B MiG-21F-13
YF-110C J-7B
YF-110D MiG-21
YF-112 Su-22
YF-113A MiG-17F HAVE DRILL
YF-113B MiG-23BN
YF-113C J-5 HAVE PRIVILEGE
YF-113E MiG-23MS
YF-114C MiG-17F HAVE FERRY
YF-114D MiG-17PF
YF-116 MiG-25
YF-118 MiG-29


I highly recommend the book as it has details of these programs which are difficult to get elsewhere. The author personally worked on some of these.
Whisperstream and TD are two of the most authoritative public sources for these programs.
 
Used USAF any own designation, like YF-11X, for eastern transport aircrafts (An-2 ...) nad helicopters (Mi-24 ...)?
 
Here is US An-2 nad russian helicopters: http://www.angelfire.com/dc/jinxx1/TSMO/TSMO.htm
 
Nagumo said:
Used USAF any own designation, like YF-11X, for eastern transport aircrafts (An-2 ...) nad helicopters (Mi-24 ...)?

Jos Heyman said:
Never heard of that. Where did you get that from?

He was merely asking the question, not claiming there had been any.
 
Whisperstream said:
The practice of using non-standard designations began with Project HAVE DOUGHNUT in 1968. Project pilots Fred Cuthill and Joe Jordan were trying to figure out how to log the flight time in the AF Form 5. For security reasons, they obviously couldn't list the airplane as a MiG-21. The solution was to use a designation that had not been previously used, and would never be assigned to a production aircraft. The "Century Series" designations had been phased out in 1962, and only one designation was needed for the project. They picked YF-110B since YF-110A had been briefly used to designate the Air Force version of the F4H-1 before it was formally designated F-4C.

Now, a lot of people would like to draw a straight line between the YF-110B and the YF-117A with all the known and missing designations in a neat row, but it didn't work that way. The numbers were not assigned in any linear or logical order. In 1969, two MiG-17F (Lim-5M) aircraft were acquired for evaluation purposes. Although the two airplanes were physically identical and were sometimes even flown together on dual sorties, they each received separate designations and project names. The HAVE DRILL project aircraft was designated YF-113A. Because the AF Form 5, at that time, did not accommodate tail numbers, the HAVE FERRY project aircraft was designated YF-114C.

In 1970, Wendell Shawler flew a Chinese-built MiG-17F (J-5) at Phu Cat Air Base, Vietnam under Project HAVE PRIVILEGE. He used the designation YF-113C. This designation was recycled in the early 1990s for a completely different aircraft. I suspect the later generation of Red Hats was unaware that the YF-113C designation had been used previously.

Project HAVE GLIB, established in 1970, became the umbrella program for early foreign materiel evaluation (FME) projects. The YF-114C was joined by a MiG-17PF (designated YF-114D), and several MiG-21s. Since, by this time the AF Form 5 had been modified to accommodate tail numbers, the MiG-21s were all designated YF-110B.

In 1973, foreign aircraft evaluations were placed under the HAVE IDEA umbrella program. HAVE GLIB apparently continued, in some form, at least into the 1980s. Circumstantial evidence suggests a connection to foreign radar studies. HAVE IDEA was replaced by HAVE PHOENIX in 1986. Individual aircraft are often associated with additional project names (HAVE PAD, HAVE BOAT, etc.).

The Red Hats refer to the FME aircraft as "classified prototypes." Although they are not true prototypes, the airplanes are used for experimental and developmental testing (the latter being more along the lines of operational test and evaluation). Non-standard designations were also applied advanced technology demonstrators and full-scale development prototypes of domestic manufacture (YF-117A, YF-118G, etc.). Recently, a few two-digit designations have surfaced, as well.

Confusion about a "classified prototype" called the YF-113G results from the fact that the only known pilots to have flown it were Red Hats, but the "Classified Flight Test Squadron" that operated it reportedly took the airplane "from design to first flight" (suggesting a new type rather than a foreign production model).

So, we have identical aircraft with different designations and different aircraft with identical designations. We have designations assigned out of numerical sequence and some apparently skipped altogether (YF-115 ?). For what it's worth, below is a list of known designations.


YF-110B MiG-21-F13 HAVE DOUGHNUT (tail number 80695, later 007) ex-Iraqi AF, 1968; HAVE GLIB, HAVE IDEA

YF-110B MiG-21-F13 HAVE GLIB, HAVE IDEA (tail number 004), ex-Indonesian AF, built from parts, 1972-? ???

YF-110B MiG-21-F13 HAVE GLIB, HAVE IDEA (tail number 010), ex-Indonesian AF, built from parts, 1972-? ???

YF-110C MiG-21-F13/J-7B CONSTANT PEG (various tail numbers), ex-Indonesian AF, built from parts

YF-110D MiG-21MF HAVE COAT and CONSTANT PEG (?), 1980-1988

YF-110E Classified aircraft, HAVE PHOENIX, stores carriage and separation, circa 1991

YF-110L Classified aircraft, HAVE PHOENIX, stores carriage and separation, circa 1986-1992

YF-110M Classified aircraft, HAVE PHOENIX, stores carriage, separation, envelope expansion, circa 1986-1993

YF-112C Possibly Su-17 HAVE UP, 1979 [unconfirmed]

YF-113A MiG-17F/Lim-5M HAVE DRILL (tail number 055), ex-Syrian AF

YF-113B MiG-23BN HAVE PAD, ex-Egyptian AF, 1978

YF-113C MiG-17F/J-5 HAVE PRIVILEGE (tail number 1024), Chinese-built, Cambodian Khmer AF, 1970

YF-113C Classified aircraft tested circa 1992 as part of HAVE PHOENIX

YF-113E MiG-23MS HAVE PAD, ex-Egyptian AF, 1978-1987

YF-113G Classified prototype aircraft, flying qualities, avionics, circa 1993-1995, possibly a FME program

YF-113H Classified aircraft tested circa 1987-1988 as part of HAVE PHOENIX

YF-114C MiG-17F/Lim-5M HAVE FERRY (tail number 002), ex-Syrian AF, HAVE GLIB, and CONSTANT PEG

YF-114D MiG-17PF (tail number 008), HAVE GLIB, HAVE IDEA, circa 1972

YF-116A Classified aircraft (HAVE LOAN ?), HAVE PHOENIX, performance, envelope expansion, avionics, propulsion, circa 1991-1992

YF-117A Lockheed SENIOR TREND FSD aircraft (tail numbers 780 through 784), 1981-2008

F-117A SENIOR TREND production aircraft (tail numbers 785 through 843), 1982-2008

YF-117D Northrop TACIT BLUE stealth technology demonstrator, 1982-1985

YF-118G Boeing Bird of Prey stealth technology demonstrator. 1996-1999

YF-24A Classified prototype aircraft, circa 1997

YF-43B Classified prototype aircraft, circa ??? ?


what is "Have Loan"?
 
Former USAF Director of T&E and Special Programs luminary Manclark on CONSTANT PEG:

http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/Biographies/Display/tabid/225/Article/106352/john-t-manclark.aspx

http://secure.afa.org/Mitchell/Presentations/Mitchell_073112_Manclark.pdf

http://secure.afa.org/Mitchell/Presentations/Mitchell_073112_Manclark.mp3
 

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to be able to go the places I've gone, see the people I've seen and fly the Aircraft, such as the MIG-21 and MIG-25, I've flown, well, it is phenomenal," General Keys said


(http://www.maxwell.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123164467)


Mmmmmm really?....: unfortunately retired former ACC Commander Gen. Keys doesn't have any glaring entries (eg 6513th TS, 4477th TES etc) in his Bio (Unless some of his command positions gave him opportunities along the lines of Bobby Bond).


(http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/Biographies/Display/tabid/225/Article/104866/general-ronald-e-keys.aspx)
 
AFOTEC and FWS certainly could.
 
HAVE FERRY/HAVE DRILL:


http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/docs/area51_51.PDF



http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/docs/area51_52.PDF


HAVE DOUGHNUT:


http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/docs/area51_48.PDF


http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/docs/area51_49.PDF


http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/docs/area51_50.PDF
 

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