SNCASE / Sud-Est Aviation designation (SE)

[PhR]

What ?,in TU magazine and Retrohydro site,it's as I explained,please see the picture (11)

Ok, I see. Thank you for sharing. I do not really consider Hydroretro as reliable source, and I suspect the TU source is probably the same. I never found traces of such SE-300 autogiro project in SNCASE archives or wind-tunnel test inventories. It never appears in SNCASE monthly internal reports. None from the people I interviewed when I worked in Marignane design office and at CEV mentioned it. I was also invited several times by the association "Mohican" which grouped the last survivors from Lioré et Olivier, and they provided to me plenty of information and documents, including the team from Pierre Renoux who managed the autogiro department. They never mentioned this project.

Nevertheless, it is possible. Initial SE-300 (ex Romano 111) was cancelled 23rd August 1938, one year afer having been ordered. The SE-300T seaplane was tested in wind-tunnel only during WW2. So there is a time hole in between where this number could have been reused. I am sceptic and I will try to find where this information comes from. Do you know in which issue of TU you found it?

 

[hesham]

X-230 was a low-wing 12/19 executive monoplane Project,powered by two 800 hp Astazou engines
X-240 was a tandem two-seat low-wing trainer and tourist monoplane Project,powered by one 200 hp Cont.
or Lycoming engine
X-250 was a low-wing medium airliner transport monoplane Project,powered by three Rolls-Royce/Snecma M45 jet engines,mounted two under the wing and one above the rear of the fuselage
X-260 was unknown design
X-270 was a side-by-side two-seat low-wing light monoplane Project,led to develop Socata TB-9
X-280 was a 3/4 seat light helicopter Project,based on Allouette II,powered by one Astazou II turboshaft engine,need
confirm
X-290 was unknown design
X-300 was a five-seat light helicopter Project,led to develop SA-340 Gazelle
X-310 was unknown design
X-320 was unknown design
X-330 was a tandem two-seat attack version of SA-330 Puma,Project only
X-340 was unknown design
X-350/I Rotojet was a 4/5 seat compound helicopter military Project,powered by two turboshaft engines
X-350/II Rotojet was version,intended for civil role,also powered by two turboshaft engines
X-350/III Rotojet was a 30/36 passenger transport Project version,powered by two turboshaft engines
X-350/IV Rotojet was a 50 passenger transport Project version,powered by three turboshaft engines
X-350/V Rotojet was a medium airliner Project version,,with stowed rotor,powered by three turboshaft engines
X-350/VI Rotojet was a medium transport Project version,with retractable rotor and V-tail,powered by two
turboshaft engines
X-350/VII Rotojet was a medium transport Project version,with disc rotor,powered by three turboshaft
engines
X-360 maybe early concept,with led to develop SA-360 Dauphin,need confirm
X-370 was a 3/4 light helicopter Project,powered by one Wankel-type rotary engine,led to developed SA-350
X-375 was a 3/4 light helicopter Project,powered by two Wankel-type rotary engines
X-380 was a SA-365N with combined composite rotorhub/mast, 5 blade rotor and swept tips

I think you are mixing the designations, not me. The false idea to have an X-300 in sequence after X-230, 240, 250 etc. is a pure mistake from your side. You misundertand how the numbering was assigned by SNCASE.

My dear Philippe,

you don't understand my point,of course this sequence was begun with SNCASE,and in 1957,after amalgamation
with SNCASO to be Sud Aviation,and after it started from X-200,and reached X-223.X-224 & X-225,they continued
with next entry,which was X-230,then X-240,X-250 ....,X-270,X-280 and X-300,up to X-380,later with Aerospatiale.

And that's not related to early X-300 for helicopter,which did show up after the WWII,so we have two X-300,
the first after the war immediately and passing with X-301,X-302 up to X-316,and the second X-300 which
was by Sud Aviation.

 

[hesham]

Ok, I see. Thank you for sharing. I do not really consider Hydroretro as reliable source, and I suspect the TU source is probably the same. I never found traces of such SE-300 autogiro project in SNCASE archives or wind-tunnel test inventories. It never appears in SNCASE monthly internal reports. None from the people I interviewed when I worked in Marignane design office and at CEV mentioned it. I was also invited several times by the association "Mohican" which grouped the last survivors from Lioré et Olivier, and they provided to me plenty of information and documents, including the team from Pierre Renoux who managed the autogiro department. They never mentioned this project.

Nevertheless, it is possible. Initial SE-300 (ex Romano 111) was cancelled 23rd August 1938, one year afer having been ordered. The SE-300T seaplane was tested in wind-tunnel only during WW2. So there is a time hole in between where this number could have been reused. I am sceptic and I will try to find where this information comes from. Do you know in which issue of TU you found it?

Of course I disagree with that,the TU magazine is a reliable source,and there is another source,may Encyclopedia,forget
its name,that's because I am in another house,and I don't have all my stuff,and could be re-allocated,because the SE.300
autogyro was in 1936/37,the TU numbered 295.

 

[PhR]

Of course I disagree with that,the TU magazine is a reliable source,and there is another source,may Encyclopedia,forget
its name,that's because I am in another house,and I don't have all my stuff,and could be re-allocated,because the SE.300
autogyro was in 1936/37,the TU numbered 295.

Hello Hesham,
I said that I don't trust all information from Hartmann in Hydroretro site because I found a lot of errors. Nevertheless, it's a very interresting source of information. He shared a lot of original documents and provides huge quantity of information. I need to just take distance, as it is not an original source, so it requires confirmation from other origin to overlap.

I am myself one of the contributors of the TU. As you have undoubtedly noticed, I always favor original document, instead of publications from books or magazines. The Trait d'Union magazine is an excellent source, where various specialists share their knowledge, information... and doubts! This is why it is very important to me to know where an information comes from. Is it from archives? Testimony? collection? Hypothesis? Logical deduction? Or is it a copy from another writer?

In TU 295, Charles Claveau refers to a previous issue. I finally found it in one of the complements from his series about French manufacturers. As you can see attached, he explains from where the information comes: Hartman's site! It confirms exactly what I said before: "I suspect the TU source is probably the same". This is confirmed by the author himself.

 

[PhR]

My dear Philippe,

you don't understand my point,of course this sequence was begun with SNCASE,and in 1957,after amalgamation
with SNCASO to be Sud Aviation,and after it started from X-200,and reached X-223.X-224 & X-225,they continued
with next entry,which was X-230,then X-240,X-250 ....,X-270,X-280 and X-300,up to X-380,later with Aerospatiale.

And that's not related to early X-300 for helicopter,which did show up after the WWII,so we have two X-300,
the first after the war immediately and passing with X-301,X-302 up to X-316,and the second X-300 which
was by Sud Aviation.

Hello Hesham,
first of all, I don't want to hurt you. You made very huge work trying to compile manufacturers listings. This is a very difficult work that I appreciate. I think that about 95% of your lists are correct. I just try to help you fixing the remaining 5%.
I don't know from where you took this idea that SNCASE used numbers in sequence. Unfortunately, SNCASE is good exemple of non-continuous numbering and non-homogenous application of their internal rules.

From the beginning, just after WW2, the X series were introduced to replace the SE-0xx numbers, and they were allocated by slices to different design offices. So there was never continuity from X-200 series, and no overflow from one slice to another. There was never any X-300 in sequence after X-2xx. You can forget these hypothetic initial X-300/301/302.

Also note that initially, the slice 4000 was assigned to Marignane (Poitou office), before being re-assigned to Cannes. This is why the X-104 became the SE-4000. Then the Cannes series started with SE-4100, followed by SE-4200, 4300, 4400 and 4500 with their variants.
Some offices designed their projects in sequence, such as Cannes up to X-422. But for La Courneuve helicopters, they started very late using these designations, and not in sequence. The first I know are X-315, 316 and 317 presented to Official State Services in May 1955.

After fusions of companies, other X-xxx designations continued to be used, but not in sequence. I personnally worked at Marignane on X-350 (reused number), while one of my neighbours in the open office shown me a project for tilt-rotor, knowing that an X-910 was abandoned 10 years earlier.

 

[hesham]

From the beginning, just after WW2, the X series were introduced to replace the SE-0xx numbers, and they were allocated by slices to different design offices. So there was never continuity from X-200 series, and no overflow from one slice to another. There was never any X-300 in sequence after X-2xx. You can forget these hypothetic initial X-300/301/302.

My dear Philippe,

that's right for SNCASE only,but how can you explain,after last experimental number of SNCASE "X-225",they began
in Sud Aviation with X-230,and I am asking,from where the number 230 was came ?.

So weird my dear,you told me as I knew,X-300 was assigned to helicopter after WWII,this means they started from
it,and how do you explain in the same series for early SNCASE these numbers,X-310,X-315 & X-316 for helicopters ?,
the only logic thing,that the X-300 followed by 301.302,303,304 up to 310,and raised to 315 and 316,right ?.

 

[PhR]

So weird my dear,you told me as I knew,X-300 was assigned to helicopter after WWII,this means they started from
it,and how do you explain in the same series for early SNCASE these numbers,X-310,X-315 & X-316 for helicopters ?,
the only logic thing,that the X-300 followed by 301.302,303,304 up to 310,and raised to 315 and 316,right ?.

I try desperately to explain to you: please stop thinking "logic". There is no logic behind, just choices! Trying to introduce logic in French company designations is is one of the most sure path to make errors.
As soon as you try to follow "logic", you introduces bias. So, please just stay to what is recorded and don't try to fill the holes. By doing this, you create fakes and legends.

In the case of SNCASE studies for example, as you can see below, there is no "logic", there is no chronology, just choices:
- X-300: 1966, light helicopter HLO/HLU.
- X-305: 1950, helicopter for medical evacuation, rescue and liaison.
- X-310: 1953, light helicopter concept for tubine engine. 7th project X-310G was the starting base for SE-3130 Alouette II prototype.
- SE-311 (not X-311, I don't know why): 1953, twin-rotor helicopter
- X-315: 1955, twin-turbine executive helicopter
- X-316: 1955, heavy helicopter
- X-317: 1955, turbine-driven helicopter

 

[PhR]

I am asking,from where the number 230 was came ?.

It came only from the head of the engineer who selected that number. Don't try to look further. There is nothing behind.

 

[hesham]

With no offence,only you explanation is not logical,but the company itself has,after WWII,as you mentioned
they started with X-300,that means X-300,X-301,X-302,X-303,X-304 up to X-305,but we don't know the
earlier (300 to 304),it's not necessary they were not existing ?!.

For X-300 it another series completely,and even for Sud Aviation,and not SNCASE.

 

[PhR]

OK, if you are not interrested by the reality, I let you invent whatever unverifiable alternative truth you want.

 

[hesham]

OK, if you are not interrested by the reality, I let you invent whatever unverifiable alternative truth you want.

You didn't answer my logical questions,and still told us that,the X-300 example had no sense,also you mentioned
a small part of reality not all,if you are right ?,tell us what was early X-300 series for helicopters after WWII,from
X-300 to X-304 ?!.

 

[PhR]

You didn't answer my logical questions,and still told us that,the X-300 example had no sense,also you mentioned
a small part of reality not all,if you are right ?,tell us what was early X-300 series for helicopters after WWII,from
X-300 to X-304 ?!.

We know what is the X-300: this is the project HLU/HLO, which became the Gazelle. If you find a document about another project X-300 before 1966, Great! Please share it. If not, it's maybe possibly because this number was not used. However, any supposition about potential existence without evidence has no value. Even logical "deduction" has also no value. People do not always choose to follow numerical numbers. They may choose a number just because they like it, or decide to reserve numbers for another future usage if any. Sometimes it is finally used, sometimes not.

SNCASE engineers apparently decided to start their studies with X-305, 310, 315. They came back to X-300 in 1966. This is their choice, not yours. Nobody has disclosed other projets using numbers in between, so, it is possible that they never existed. You don't know, me neither. So mentioning it is just creating a fake.

 

[hesham]

We know what is the X-300: this is the project HLU/HLO, which became the Gazelle. If you find a document about another project X-300 before 1966, Great! Please share it. If not, it's maybe possibly because this number was not used. However, any supposition about potential existence without evidence has no value. Even logical "deduction" has also no value. People do not always choose to follow numerical numbers. They may choose a number just because they like it, or decide to reserve numbers for another future usage if any. Sometimes it is finally used, sometimes not.

SNCASE engineers apparently decided to start their studies with X-305, 310, 315. They came back to X-300 in 1966. This is their choice, not yours. Nobody has disclosed other projets using numbers in between, so, it is possible that they never existed. You don't know, me neither. So mentioning it is just creating a fake.

My dear,you claimed that the series maybe X-305,X-310 & X-315,if that was right,the next two entries must be X-320
and X-325,but the opposite is what we found,they were X-316 and X-317,so the only solution for that is the archive
has many many missing projects,we don't know it as appeared in other sequences,and this explain the gaps between
the series of X-300.

 

[Arjen]

the archive has many many missing projects,

No.

'the archive' has a discontinuous collection of project numbers. This should not be construed as evidence of the existence of numbered projects to fill the perceived numerical gaps.

To repeat:

Nobody has disclosed other projets using numbers in between, so, it is possible that they never existed. You don't know, me neither. So mentioning it is just creating a fake.

 

[hesham]

'the archive' has a discontinuous collection of project numbers. This should not be construed as evidence of the existence of numbered projects to fill the perceived numerical gaps.

No sense at all to use this series from company; X-305,X-310,X-315 then X-316 & X-317 ?!.

The only logical thing as in many French companies,the archives are missing some designations,we see for
example,Morane Saulnier,there were a lot of gaps in it,why ?,they lost them.

 

[Arjen]

As Mark Twain wrote:
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."

Assigning project numbers in a continuous sequence is esthetically pleasing, superficially logical, but (company) politics hand us numbers that, at first sight, appear illogical. Business, legal or political logic steps in, and we get Windows 10 instead of Windows 9. Or F-35 instead of F-24, B-21 instead of B-3, Porsche 911 instead of Porsche 901, SAAB 900 instead of SAAB 100.
The list is nearly endless.

 

[PhR]

The only logical thing as in many French companies,the archives are missing some designations,we see for
example,Morane Saulnier,there were a lot of gaps in it,why ?,they lost them.

Contrary to your imaginary "logic" without any basis, the real known sequence in time is the following one: X-305, X=310, SE-311, X-315, X-316, X-317, X-300, X-350, X-910, X-370, X-350, X-380. These are just facts.

 

[hesham]

Contrary to your imaginary "logic" without any basis, the real known sequence in time is the following one: X-305, X=310, SE-311, X-315, X-316, X-317, X-300, X-350, X-910, X-370, X-350, X-380. These are just facts.

I disagree,that's no sense in it,the archive is not completed,many were missing.

 

[PhR]

that's no sense in it

Yes. But it's true and factual.

the archive is not completed,many were missing.

Certainly, but we have no evidence at the moment, until somebody provides new reliable material. Any other approach is worthless.

 

[dan_inbox]

I disagree,that's no sense in it,the archive is not completed,many were missing.

Then the practical and productive action path from there is to

1. list the known and documented projects (as PhR did in #137);
2. keep an eye open for any new evidence of a project carrying one of the unusued numbers;
3. NOT assert the existence of such projects until such evidence appears, lest one would create one of those never-dying internet rumors, which would not help knowledge advance.

Note that you or anyone else can keep an eye open and even have a private list of "missing-numbers-possible-projects" to look for, but should just not publish them as "existing but not yet discovered", which would start the wrong road.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

as we see in my reply # 86,the X-100 is regular;X-100,X-101,X-102 ........etc,the X-200 is regular;200,X-201,X-202.........etc,
the X-400 is regular; X-400,X-401,X-402 .....etc,aslo X-500,give me one reason to be the X-300 un-regular,of course not,
but there are a lot missing designations in the archive,also for "SE" series,many gaps.

 

[PhR]

X-116 Voltigeur was a 2/3 seat army support aircraft capable of observation and ground attack operation,
powered by two Wright Cyclones radial,later with 650 hp Turbomeca Bastan turboprop engines,later became
a SE-116
X-116B Voltigeur was a version powered by two 800 hp Wright C7 turboprop engines,Project
X-117 Voltigeur was a third prototype,also powered by two 760 hp Turbomeca Bastan turboprop engines,later
became SE-117
X-118 Diplomate was a light transport version of X-117,with low-wing and powered by two 760 hp Turbomeca Bastan turboprop engines,later became SE-118
X-118/I Diplomate was a refined version of X-118,powered by two 760 hp Turbomeca Bastan turboprop
engines,also called SE-118,Project
X-118/II Diplomate was a navigator trainer version,also powered by two 760 hp Turbomeca Bastan turboprop
engines,also called SE-118

I do not agree:
The SNCASE studies X-116A and X-116B designed by Poitou's office located in Marignane were purchased by French State order number 3022/57 and then became the "Voltigeur", respectively renamed as SE-116-01 with Wright radial engines and SE-116-02 with Bastan turboprops.
A third one was ordered as SE-117-03, with enlarged fuselage and Bastan turboprops. An SE-117A project was studied with Wright engines. If an X-117 has ever existed, it does not have any relationship with the SE-117.
Then, the next studies were SE-118 "Diplomate" and SE-119, which, as far as I know, were never called "X-" someting.
I placed additional information here:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/sncase-sud-est-aviation-projects.3178/page-3#post-686020

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/sncase-sud-est-aviation-projects.3178/page-3#post-686131

 

[hesham]

I will make a SNCASE & Sud-Aviation list;

SE-161 Languedoc was a forty-seat transport monoplane,started as the Bloch MB-161
SE-20 Aquilon was a license-built De Havilland Sea Venom
SE-201 Aquilon was a two-seat night pursuit version of 1952
SE-202 Aquilon was a DH Sea Venom derivative
SE-203 Aquilon was a single seat fighter version
SE-204 Aquilon was a two-seat jet trainer version
SE-247 was developed from LeO H-47,as a military derivative version of 1945
SE-520 was a Projected version of Dewoitine D.520
SE-530 Mistral was a license-built De Havilland Vampire
SE-531 Mistral was a license-built De Havilland Vampire with Nene 102B engine
SE-532 Mistral was a license-built De Havilland Vampire with Nene 104 engine and ejector seat
SE-533 & SE-534 Mistral were unknown variants,maybe a Projects
SE-535 Mistral was a navel fighter version
SE-580 was a post-war Project fighter derived from D.520 with dorsal air intake,powered by one Hispano-Suiza 12Z
engine
SE-581 was a Project version,powered by one 2500 hp Hispano-Suiza 24Z engine
SE-582 was a Project version,powered by one 4000 hp Arsenal 24H engine

SE-100 was an initially designed the LeO 50,powered by two 1081 hp Gnome-Rhône 14N-20 or Gnome-Rhône 14N
-21 engines
SE-100-02 was a version of SE-100,powered by two Gnome-Rhône 14N
SE-101 was a three-seat fighter in C.3 category,powered by two 750 hp Hispano-Suiza 14 AB-02/03 engines,later
re-engine with 1100 hp Pratt and Whitney Twin Wasp R-2000 engines
SE-102 was a three seat observation light bomber version,in AB3 category,powered by two Gnôme-Rhône 14 N2/3
or 14N40/41 engines
SE-103 was anther AB3 version,powered by two 1150 hp Hispano-Suiza 14AA-12/13 engines
SE-104 was unknown version
SE-105 was a version of SE-100,with two auxiliary tanks and powered by two 1320 hp Gnôme-Rhône 14 R4/5 engines
SE-110 was an initial name for SE-101
SE-120 & SE-121 maybe were a single seat mono-motor fighter Projects,need confirm
SE-122 was a single seat recce Project version of SE-100,a scale down configuration,powered by single engine,driven
two counter-rotating propellers
SE-200 Amphitrite was a formerly LeO H-49 large transport flying boat,powered by six 1600 hp Gnome-Rhône 14
R-26 & R-27 engines
SE-200 Lourd was a very heavy Project version,with 200 ton empty weight
SE-200 Affine was a version,with single-tail empennage and elongated hull,powered by six Gnôme-Rhône 18R and
78 ton empty weight
SE-200/4 was a four engined Project version,and simplified configuration
SE-201 & SE-202 were unknown variants,maybe a Projects only
SE-203 was a version,powered by six Gnome-Rhône 14R engines,and 68 ton empty weight
SE-204 was a version,powered by six Gnôme-Rhône 18R engines,and 80 ton empty weight
SE-204M was a military version of SE-204,powered by six Gnôme-Rhône 18R engines,with defensive and offensive weapons
SE-205 & SE-206 were unknown Project versions
SE-207 maybe was aversion ,powered by six Gnôme-Rhône 18R engines,and 90 ton empty weight
SE-208,SE-209,SE-210 & SE-211 were unknown Project versions
SE-212 was a Project version of SE-200,powered by six Gnôme-Rhône 18R, wing area increase of 35 m° and 90 ton empty weight
SE-300 was a light transport autogyro Project,powered by one 350 hp Gnôme-Rhône engine
SE-400 was a three-seat mid-wing surveillance seaplane,on floats,powered by two 655 hp Gnôme-Rhône 14M
engines
SE-500 was a four seat light bomber Project version of SE-100,powered by two 1050 hp Gnôme-Rhône N-48/49
or 1600 hp Gnôme-Rhône 14R engines
SE-500T was a twin-engine 12 passenger cargo/transport Project,powered by two 1050 hp Gnôme-Rhône 14R
engines
SE-600 was a two-seat armed recce experimental Project,based on SE-100,but powered by one 350 hp Bearn
6D engine
SE-600/I was a light transport Project version,also powered by one 350 hp Bearn 6D engine
SE-700 was a three-seat passenger autogyro,powered by one 330 hp Béarn 6D-07 engine
SE-700S was an improved version,maybe remained a Project,
SE-701 was a version,intended to carry 700 kg of load,powered by one 220 hp Renault 6Q-01 engine,also known
as SE-700A
SE-702 was a version,featured by a fuselage hull and a fixed front wheel,powered by one 330 hp Béarn 6D-07 engine,
also called SE-700B
SE-800 was a transport Project developed from SE-100,22 passenger and four crew,powered by either 1350 hp
Gnome-Rhône 14 or 1650 hp Wright Cyclone engines
SE-800A was a 24 passenger and four crew,powered by two 1300 hp Gnome-Rhône 14 R engines,Project
SE-800B was a 33 passenger and four crew,powered by four 1000 hp Hispano-Suiza 12 Y engines,Project
SE-800C was a 24 passenger in cabin waterproof,powered by two 1600 hp Gnome-Rhône 14 R engines,Project
SE-900 maybe a three engined large Project version of SE-100,intended as bomber or transport aircraft,need confirm
SE-1000 was a mid-wing stratospheric transatlantic postal transport monoplane Project,powered by four
1590 hp Gnome-Rhône 14 R engines
SE-1001 was a Project version of SE-1000,with re-designed the nose and cockpit configuration,as a long-
range mail carrier
SE-1010 was a high-altitude photo-survey aircraft,powered by four 1600 hp Gnome-Rhône 14 R-28/29 engines
SE-1011 was a production aircraft: three under construction when Project was abandoned
SE-1015 was a long-range 18 passenger courier airliner Project,powered by four 1600 hp Gnome-Rhône 14 R-28/29 engines
SE-1020 was a maritime patrol aircraft Project,with gun turret,powered by four Junkers Jumo 213 engines
SE-1030 was a proposed 40 passenger airliner variant Project,powered by four 1600 hp Gnome-Rhône 14 R-28/29 engines
SE-1035 was a high Speed Stratospheric airliners from 1947 with a more conventional larger diameter airliner
fuselage design,powered by four 1600 hp Gnome-Rhône 14 R-28/29 engines
SE-1040 was a proposed turboprop test-bed to evaluate the Rolls-Royce Dart engine
SE-1100 was a redesigning of SE-200C.,as a civil/military transport flying boat Project,120 ton empty weight
SE-1200 was a 125 passenger heavy version of SE-200,but powered by eight 3400 hp Arsenal 24H engines,
140 ton empty weight,Project
SE-1210 was a sub-scale version of SE-1200,powered by four 240 hp Renault 6Q engines
SE-1200/I was a medium transport compound helicopter Project,with shoulder wing and addition two
piston engines,mounted on it and the a low rear wing with twin tail fins
SE-1300 was a very large and heavy version of SE-200,with 180 ton empty weight,Project
SE-1400 was a projected sub-scale flying mock-up of SE 2400 or heavy jet fighter derived from SE 2400,powered
by one Rolls Royce Derwent V turbojet engine,Project
SE-1410 was a projected sub-scale flying mockup of SE 2400,but powered by Walter HWK 109/509 rocket
engine
SE-1400/I was a side-by-side two seat attack aircraft Project,powered by two Hispano-Suiza Nene turbojets,mounted
beside the fuselage with wing roots,later redesigned and developed into SE-2450
SE-1500 was a unguided, effect of explosions, 10 to 200 m from the vehicle (1946)
SE-1501 was a unguided target (1948)
SE-1502 was a unguided target (1950)
SE-1502M was a Navy recoverable target (1953)
SE-1503 was a turbojet powered target (1953)
SE-1504 was a developed project version of SE-1500
SE-1510 was a guided and recoverable target(1948)
SE-1511 was a test of optical guidance (1952)
SE-1520 was built but not flown; five were modified into SE 1502M and five more into SE 1523
SE-1521 was a experimental flying bomb (1949)
SE-1522 was a recoverable target (1952)
SE-1523 was a Navy operational recoverable target (1953)
SE-1524 was an Air Force operational recoverable target (1953)
SE-1530 was a built and not flown; seven were modified into SE 1522 and two into SE 1523.
SE-1531 was a rocket powered variant (1952)
SE-1600 was an experimental aircraft with additional vertical control surfaces Project,no more details
SE-1700 unknown Project,maybe a tourism glider,need confirm
SE-1800 was an two-seat experimental twin-jet transport flying wing Project,powered by two Rolls Royce Nene
turbojet engines
SE-1801 was a Project version of SE-1800,but powered by two Snecma ATAR turbojet engines
SE-1802 was a Project version of SE-1800,also powered by a less propulsion Rolls Royce Nene turbojet engines
SE-1900 was a rocket-powered wheeled car
SE-1910 was a record-breaking variant of above
SE-2000 was a mid-wing transatlantic heavy transport Project,powered by four 2100 hp Gnôme Rhôme R18
engines
SE-2001 was a unknown Project version,need Info
SE-2010 Armagnac was a enlarge version of SE-2000,with a cantilever mid-wing monoplane with retractable tricycle landing gear,powered by four 3500 hp Pratt & Whitney R-4360-B13 Wasp Major engines
SE-2020 was a version of SE-2010 with bigger wheels (1,72 m instead of 1,52 m),Project,maybe powered by
the same engines
SE-2030 was a version of SE-2010,but powered by four Cyclone turboprop engines
SE-2040 was a projected derivative of SE-2010,with four Allison T40 turboprop engines and longer fuselage
SE-2043 was a Project version from SE-2010,powered by four Bristol Proteus turboprop engines
SE-2050 was unknown Project version,need Info
SE-2060 was a test bed aircraft of SE-2010 transport aircraft with eight ATAR engines
SE-2100 was a two-seat light and touring tailless airplane,powered by one 190 hp Renault 4Pei pusher engine
SE-2200 was a single seat naval fighter Project,based on SE-580
SE-2300 was a two-three seat low-wing light and touring monoplane,powered by one 140 hp Renault 4Pei engine
SE-2301 was a developed version of SE-2300,need Info,maybe a Project
SE-2310 was a three-seat, tricycle undercarriage version,powered by one 190 hp Renault 4Pei engine
SE-2311 was a version of SE-2310,with retractable gear and fuel canisters in wings,maybe with the engine
SE-2400/I was a low-mid-wing single seat experimental attack monoplane Project,powered by two Socema CEM
turbojet engines,mounted under each wing
SE-2400/II was a single seat mid-wing experimental attack monoplane Project,powered by two Rolls Royce Nene
turbojet engines,mounted in dorsal intakes
SE-2410 Grognard I was a single seat low-level ground attack experimental monoplane prototype,powered by two Hispano-Suiza (built under license RR) Nene 101 turbojet engines
SE-2411 Grognard was a developed version from SE-2410,powered by Rolls Royce Nene 102 turbojet engines,need
confirm
SE-2412 Grognard maybe a misprint
SE-2415 Grognard II was a two-seat as a development version,that included a stretched fuselage incorporating a
raised cockpit with a bubble canopy and reduced 32˚ wing sweep back,powered by the same engines
SE-2416 Grognard was a single seat strike aircraft Project version,with four HS 603 30mm machine guns,also
the same engines
SE-2417 Grognard was a SE-2415,re-engine with Tay or Verdon turbojets,and fitted with eight 20mm guns,Project
SE-2418 Grognard was a single seat version,this design mated a highly swept wing SE-2410 and SE-2415 fuselage,
with two 30mm guns,and the same engines,Project
SE-2418/I Grognard was a version,powered by two Snecma ATAR 101F turbojet engine,mounted side-by-side,
and two 30mm guns,Project
SE-2419 Grognard was a direct adaption of SE-2418 with two Rolls Royce Nene turbojets,and two 30mm guns,
Project
SE-2420 Grognard III was based on third prototype (SE-2415) with thin wings,with two Tay turbojets,never
completed
SE-2421 Grognard was a two-seat long-range all-weather fighter Project,based on SE-2420 and same engines
SE-2422 Grognard was a single seat strike aircraft Project,with thin wings and featured a revised air-intakes
(lesser bulky but wider),maybe with RR Nene engines
SE-2422R Grognard was a single seat recce version of SE-2422,with cameras in place of gun bay
SE-2423 Grognard was a design version,mated the fuselage of SE-2418 with the wings of SE-2415,Project
SE-2424 Grognard was anther version of SE-2418,but with Snecma Vulcain P-150 engines with post combustion
SE-2450 Grognard was a simplified SE-2400/I,side-by-side two-seat with bubble canopy and pursuit radar,and
powered by two Hispano-Suiza Nene turbojets,mounted beside the fuselage with wing roots,Project
SE-2500 was a designation mentioned as similar to the X-201.02.01,jet airliner Project
SE-2600 was missile Project
SE-2700,SE-2800 & SE-2900 were unknown designs,maybe not used
SE-3000 was a heavy two rotor transport helicopter project (also allocated to former Focke-Achgelis Fa 223)
SE-3001 was a flying model of the SE-3100
SE-3010 was unknown Project,need confirm
SE-3100 was a twin-engine single-rotor large helicopter Project,with unusual twin, angled tail rotors
SE-3101 was an experimental sub-scale prototype version of SE 3100, first French helicopter
SE-3110 was a two-seat experimental light helicopter,powered by one 200 hp Salmson 9 Nh engine,with unusual twin, angled tail rotors
SE-3111 was a variant Project fitted with rotors larger diameter tail (2.80 m instead 2.40 m),based on SE-3110
SE-3120 Alouette was a single seat crew and two seat utility helicopter,powered by one 200 hp Salmson 9 Nh engine
SE-3130 Alouette II was enlarge version of SE-3120,with one crew and four seat,utility and multi-role helicopter,
powered by one 530 hp Turbomeca Artouste IIC6 turboshaft engine
SE-3140 was Alouette II modified with shorter main rotor blades anf 400 hp Turbomeca Turmo turboshaft
engine
SE-3150 Lama was Allouette II,fitted with larger main rotor,3-blade tail rotor and powered by one 500 hp Turbomeca
Artouste III turboshaft engine
SE-3160 Allouette III was a redesigned Allouette II with all-metal monocoque fuselage,and a fully enclosed seven-seat cabin and fixed tricycle undercarriage,powered by 870 hp Turbomeca Artouste IIIB turboshaft engine
SE-3164 was Allouette II with stepped windshield and nose-mounted 20mm gun,prototype
SE-3170 was unknown Project
SE-3180 Allouette was Allouette II fitted with 450 hp Turbomeca Artouste II turbine for high altitude operation,
prototype
SE-3190 was SE-3160 fitted with 600 hp Turbomeca Astazou XIV turboshaft engine,prototype
SE-3200 Frelon was a heavy transport helicopter with single four-blade main rotor,powered by three 750 hp
Turbomeca Turmo IIIB turboshaft engines,positioned in housing on top of fuselage
SA-3210 Super Frelon was developed from SE-3200,with boat hull and outrigger floats,rear loading doors,boom tail,
six-blade main rotor driven three 1320 hp Turbomeca Turmo IIIC turboshaft engines
SA-3220 Super Frelon was enlarge version of total mass 10 ton,with single five-blade main rotor,the waterproof
hull was extended at the front by a bow and bent tail (foldable) used to raise the anti-torque rotor,powered by
three 1250 hp Turbomeca Turmo IIIC turboshaft engines,Project
SA-3230 Super Frelon was a Project version of SE-3220,its empty mass was 4,800 kg and its total takeoff weight was only 9 ton,and powered by only two 1320 hp Turbomeca Turmo IIIC turboshaft engines
SA-330 Puma was a medium-lift 20 troop military helicopter with retractable tricycle undercarriage and single
four-blade main rotor ,powered by two 1320 hp Turbomeca Turmo IIIC4 turboshaft engines
SA-340 Gazelle was a light five-seat multi-role helicopter,with streamlined fuselage,tail rotor,three-blade main
rotor,powered by one Turbomeca Astazou IIN2 turboshaft engine
SE-4000 was a high-wing amphibian flying boat light transport Project,powered by one 450 hp Mathis 16G
pusher engine,mounted above the wing
SE-4010 & SE-4020 maybe unknown Project versions of SE-4000
SE-4030 was a high-wing amphibian flying boat light transport Project,enlarge version of SE-4000,powered by two Armstrong Siddeley Cheetah or P&W engines,in tractor position
SE-4100 was a first French missile, Project only
SE-4140 was a variant of SE-4100
SE-4200 was a first operational ramjet-powered ground-to-ground missile
SE-4201 was a variant of SE-4200
SE-4202 was a variant of SE-4200
SE-4204 was a variant of SE-4200
SE-4205 was a variant of SE-4200
SE-4207 was a variant of SE-4200
SE-4208 was a variant of SE-4200
SE-4209 was a variant of SE-4200
SE-4210 was a variant of SE-4200
SE-4211 was a variant of SE-4200
SE-4212 was a variant of SE-4200
SE-4220 was a variant of SE-4200
SE-4230 was a variant of SE-4200
SE-4263 was a variant of SE-4200
SE-4280 was a variant of SE-4200
SE-4299 was a target,need Info
SE-4300 was a variant of SE-4100 with French radar
SE-4400 was a ramjet-powered ground-to-air missile with same radar as above
SE-4402 was a record-breaking variant of above
SE-4500 was a enlarged ramjet-powered version of the SE-4200 intended to carry a 700-kg bomb at a distance of
130 kms
SE-4600.SE-4700,SE-4800 & SE-4900 probably not used
SE-5000 Baroudeur was a single seat high-wing lightweight strike fighter monoplane,powered by one Snecma
ATAR 101D turbojet engine
SE-5000-01 Baroudeur was a first prototype built,powered by one Snecma ATAR 101C turbojet engine
SE-5000-02 Baroudeur was a second prototype built,with some modifications
SE-5001 Baroudeur maybe it was a version with two addition Rolls Royce Soar booster engines
SE-5002 Baroudeur A was a smaller version,powered by one Bristol Siddeley Orpheus II turbojet engine
SE-5003 Baroudeur was a pre-series version,that incorporated test for many engines,ATAR E3,E4 & D3
SE-5004 Baroudeur was a version,powered by one Snecma ATAR E4 engine
SE-5005 Baroudeur maybe a misprint in L+K magazine,as a version with additions two rocket powered engines
SE-5008 Baroudeur was a proposed series version with Snecam ATAR 8 engine
SE-5008 VS Baroudeur was anther Project with blown wing,powered by one Snecma ATAR 8 engine
SE-5010 Baroudeur L was a light tactical support variant
SE-5012 Baroudeur was a proposed series version with one Bristol Siddeley Orpheus engine
SE-5013 Baroudeur was based on Baroudeur A,with Bristol Siddeley Orpheus engine,and a blown wing,Project
SE-5020 Baroudeur S was a lightened airframe Project with Snecma ATAR 101E engine
SE-5030 Baroudeur R was a Project version,powered y one Snecma M17 engine
SE-5040 Baroudeur O was a Project of lightweight version,powered by one Bristol Siddeley Orpheus
SE-5050 Baroudeur was developed from SE 5091,with blown wing and Snecma ATAR engine,Project
SE-5060 Baroudeur A/II maybe was a lighter version with thin wing,also fitted with two addition Rolls Royce Soar booster engines
SE-5070 Baroudeur M maybe was a naval version to use from aircraft carrier,project,need confirm
SE-5091 Baroudeur was a Project in collaboration with Fiat



- ANY ADDITIONS OR CORRECTIONS ARE WELCOME

I add SE-1504,

http://www.cannes-aero-patrimoine.net/pdf/pub/caspea_PMEX___001_SE1500.pdf

 

[PhR]

SE-3001 was a flying model of the SE-3100
SE-3010 was unknown Project,need confirm

Still wrong! Never existed. You should remove these entries.

Some very important SNCASE airplanes are missing in your list: SE 116 Voltigeur (2 built), SE 117 Voltigeur (1 built), SE 118 Diplomate (unfinished), SE 119 (project), SE 212 Durandal (2 built), SE 210 Caravelle (282 built), SE-3131 Gouverneur (1 built)

You can also add: SE 300 twin-engine T3 project (ex Romano 111), SE 520Z, ex Dewoitine (1 built), SE 580 heavy fighter (unfinished), SE-581 (project), SE 582 naval version of SE 580 (project), SE 2320: projected 4-seater version of SE 2310 with 3-weel retractable landing gear.

SE-900 maybe a three engined large Project version of SE-100,intended as bomber or transport aircraft,need confirm

Not confirmed: SE 900 was a twin-engined flying boat project.

SE-4100 was a first French missile, Project only

No: it's a rocket, not a missile. It was built and fired multiple times with a lot of different versions, as you can see attached (from AIAA conference by Philippe Jung).

 

[hesham]

My dear Philippe,

- For SE-3001 & SE-3010,let me check when I will back home
- About SE 116,117,118,119,210 & 212 they are in X series,to not be confuse with SE original series
- I add SE-3131
- To explain SE-300,I write it as SE-300T,and I add SE-520Z,but SE-581 & SE-582,they are already in the
list,and I put SE-2320
- I correct SE-900
- The SE-4100 with its versions,I edit them and mention the new of them

 

[PhR]

- About SE 116,117,118,119,210 & 212 they are in X series,to not be confuse with SE original series

No, this is absolutely wrong!
Once again, you are misunderstanding the SNCASE designation system.
X- series are never used for project or production. They are only for technological studies, research or demonstrators, in any order. When a design is decided, a new designation is assigned, usually in the continuity of the X, but not always. Then, the series continues and never comes back to "X" sequence.
X-210 became SE 210, X-207 and X-212 became SE 212, X-116 became SE-116 (X-117, 118 and 119 never existed for "Voltigeur", "Diplomate" and "Fonceur" derivative prototypes and projects, this is a pure invention), X-310G (7th design in the series) became SE-3130, X-300 became SA-340, X-350 became AS-350Z, etc. The only X that were built are the X-380 and the X-422 technological demonstrators.

 

[PhR]

- About SE 116,117,118,119,210 & 212 they are in X series,to not be confuse with SE original series

For example, see attached some evidences showing that official designation of Voltigeur, Caravelle and Durandal are SE, and not X.

 

[PhR]

SE-3150 Lama was Allouette II,fitted with larger main rotor,3-blade tail rotor and powered by one 500 hp Turbomeca
Artouste III turboshaft engine

Just a small correction: SE 3150 was the designation of the 2 prototypes , which were never called "Lama". Their name was "Alouette-Artouste III".
"Lama" was only assigned to production type SA 315.

 

[hesham]

No, this is absolutely wrong!
Once again, you are misunderstanding the SNCASE designation system.
X- series are never used for project or production. They are only for technological studies, research or demonstrators, in any order. When a design is decided, a new designation is assigned, usually in the continuity of the X, but not always. Then, the series continues and never comes back to "X" sequence.
X-210 became SE 210, X-207 and X-212 became SE 212, X-116 became SE-116 (X-117, 118 and 119 never existed for "Voltigeur", "Diplomate" and "Fonceur" derivative prototypes and projects, this is a pure invention), X-310G (7th design in the series) became SE-3130, X-300 became SA-340, X-350 became AS-350Z, etc. The only X that were built are the X-380 and the X-422 technological demonstrators.

I mentioned all of these in their proper series,if anyone new,and he doesn't know from where SE-116 was came from ?,
we must explain that to realize its origin.

 

[PhR]

I mentioned all of these in their proper series,if anyone new,and he doesn't know from where SE-116 was came from ?,
we must explain that to realize its origin.

SE-117 derived from SE-116 (not from X-someting), as well as SE-118 and 119.

 

[PhR]

I mentioned all of these in their proper series,if anyone new,and he doesn't know from where SE-116 was came from ?,
we must explain that to realize its origin.

In that case, why don't you apply the same rules for other designations?
As a reminder: SE10C3 became SE 100, SE11C3 became SE 101 and SE 110, SE12AB3 became SE 102 and SE 103, SE 010 became SE 400, SE 011 became SE 900, SE 014 became SE 1100, SE 015 became SE 1000, SE 016, 017, 018 were not reassigned, SE 050 became SE 2000, SET 053 became SE 2100.

It would be more readable to have the regular SE designation in the same list, with just mentioning that they derived from X-xxx pre-studies.
To be clear, the change from X- series to SE series usually indicates the change from a technological study team (think tank) to a design and manufacturing team. X-xxx were only studies. When they decided to go further, they assigned a new development team with a new designation in the regular system.
For example, Pierre Renoux has proposed at least 7 different configurations for using a turbine engine in his SE 3120 helicopter (X-310A to X-310G). He left the company after the loss of SE 3110, and only a small team was allowed to continue working on SE 3120 prototypes, mainly composed of Rene Mouille and Jean Boulet.
When they achieved successfully world records with this helicopter, a new Chief Engineer was assigned to the project: Charles Marchetti. His objective was to produce the SE 3120 in series.
Mouille explained that the SE 3120 was a pure prototype and could not be produced in series as it was. He proposed to restart a new design, based on SE 3120 main characteristics, and took the opportunity to change the engine using the principles previously studied by Renoux on X-310G. Based on this, by reducing H-34 mechanical parts for engine to rotor main transmission gearbox, he designed a brand new helicopter in only one week: the SE 3130 "Alouette II".
So, the SE 3130 derived from X-310G, but it's not the same.
In the case of the Durandal, X-207 and X-212 were internal studies proposed in multiple configurations. Finally, SNCASE received a purchase order from French State for SE 212 prototypes (not X-xxx). Then, Pierre Satre selected various elements from these pre-studies and launched the design of the prototypes. Again, SE 212 took benefits from X-207 and 212 studies, but it is a completely new aircraft, with its own characteristics that differ from all previous studies on which it is based.
It is the same for X-116A and X-116B that are the base for SE 116 proposals, before they were ordered. After, a third SE 116 was built and renamed SE 117 (it was never a X-something).

 

[hesham]

It is the same for X-116A and X-116B that are the base for SE 116 proposals, before they were ordered. After, a third SE 116 was built and renamed SE 117 (it was never a X-something).

I know all of these Infos,but it was derivative of this series 1xx,so the reader must know the numbers 117,.....etc,came
from where,that's my point,and I wrote them as following SE-117,SE-118 & SE-119,and you forget very import thing,
the series was raised up,X-120,X-121,X-122,X-123,X-124 & X-125,how I drop them out of the sequence ?!.

X-100 was unknown design
X-101 was a shoulder wing single seat jet seaplane fighter Project,powered by one Hispano-Suiza Nene turbojet engines
X-102 was unknown design
X-103 was unknown design
X-104 was a high wing amphibian flying boat light transport Project,later became SE-4000
X-105 was unknown design
X-106 was a single seat supersonic interceptor Project,intended for Switzerland,powered by two Snecma ATAR 101B
turbojet engines
X-107 was a single seat tailless flying wing supersonic interceptor Project,powered by two Snecma ATAR 101
turbojet engines
X-108 was a high-wing maritime ocean surveillance ASW aircraft Project,powered by either four 1600 hp Snecma 14R,
2200 hp Snecma 14 U or 2000 hp Arsenal 12 H engines,with one or two auxiliary jet engines
X-108A was a version with two 3600 hp Arsenal 24 H engines,and one RR Nene jet
X-108J was a version with four 2000 Junkers Jumo 213,and two Sbecma ATAR 101 jets
X-108J/I was a version with four 2000 hp Junkers Jumo 213,and two RR Nene jets
X-108BR1 was a version with four 2000 hp Bristol Hercules,and one RR Nene jet
X-108CB2 was a version with two 3000 hp Centaurus,and two RR Nene jets
X-109 was a single seat delta wing interceptor Project,powered by one Rolls-Royce Nene engine
X-110 was unknown design
X-111 was a four engined transport aircraft test model Project,intended to study the performance for SE.1040
X-112 was unknown design
X-113 was unknown design
X-114 was a single seat lightweight delta wing interceptor Project,powered by two turbojet engines
X-114/II was a single seat fighter-interceptor and light attack high-wing Project,powered by two Snecma R105
turbojet engines,mounted at each lower side of the fuselage and immediately aft the cockpit,intended to use
from carrier aircraft
X-115 was a single seat high-wing tilt-jet interceptor VTOL Project,powered by two Snecma 105R turbojet
engines
X-116 Voltigeur was a 2/3 seat army support aircraft capable of observation and ground attack operation,
powered by two Wright Cyclones radial,later with 650 hp Turbomeca Bastan turboprop engines,later became
a SE-116
X-116B Voltigeur was a version powered by two 800 hp Wright C7 turboprop engines,Project,SE-116B
SE-117 Voltigeur was a third prototype,also powered by two 760 hp Turbomeca Bastan turboprop engines,
SE-118 Diplomate was a light transport version of X-117,with low-wing and powered by two 760 hp Turbomeca Bastan turboprop engines
SE-118/I Diplomate was a refined version of X-118,powered by two 760 hp Turbomeca Bastan turboprop
engines
SE-118/II Diplomate was a navigator trainer version,also powered by two 760 hp Turbomeca Bastan turboprop
engines
SE-119 was a project
X-120 was unknown design
X-121 was unknown design mentioned in Georges Messier's site
X-122,X-123 & X-124 were unknown designs
X-125 was a single and two seat versions,as a strike and ground attack Project for ECAT competition,powered
by two Rolls Royce RB.172 turbojet engines
X-126 to X-136 were unknown designs
X-137 was a high-wing AEW monoplane Project,powered by two 3042 hp Rolls Royce Dart turboprop or
Rolls Royce RB.172 turbojet engines,in three variants

 

[hesham]

It is the same for X-116A and X-116B that are the base for SE 116 proposals, before they were ordered. After, a third SE 116 was built and renamed SE 117 (it was never a X-something).

I know all of these Infos,but it was derivative of this series 1xx,so the reader must know the numbers 117,.....etc,came
from where,that's my point,and I wrote them as following SE-117,SE-118 & SE-119,and you forget very import thing,
the series was raised up,X-120,X-121,X-122,X-123,X-124 & X-125,how I drop them out of the sequence ?!.

X-100 was unknown design
X-101 was a shoulder wing single seat jet seaplane fighter Project,powered by one Hispano-Suiza Nene turbojet engines
X-102 was unknown design
X-103 was unknown design
X-104 was a high wing amphibian flying boat light transport Project,later became SE-4000
X-105 was unknown design
X-106 was a single seat supersonic interceptor Project,intended for Switzerland,powered by two Snecma ATAR 101B
turbojet engines
X-107 was a single seat tailless flying wing supersonic interceptor Project,powered by two Snecma ATAR 101
turbojet engines
X-108 was a high-wing maritime ocean surveillance ASW aircraft Project,powered by either four 1600 hp Snecma 14R,
2200 hp Snecma 14 U or 2000 hp Arsenal 12 H engines,with one or two auxiliary jet engines
X-108A was a version with two 3600 hp Arsenal 24 H engines,and one RR Nene jet
X-108J was a version with four 2000 Junkers Jumo 213,and two Sbecma ATAR 101 jets
X-108J/I was a version with four 2000 hp Junkers Jumo 213,and two RR Nene jets
X-108BR1 was a version with four 2000 hp Bristol Hercules,and one RR Nene jet
X-108CB2 was a version with two 3000 hp Centaurus,and two RR Nene jets
X-109 was a single seat delta wing interceptor Project,powered by one Rolls-Royce Nene engine
X-110 was unknown design
X-111 was a four engined transport aircraft test model Project,intended to study the performance for SE.1040
X-112 was unknown design
X-113 was unknown design
X-114 was a single seat lightweight delta wing interceptor Project,powered by two turbojet engines
X-114/II was a single seat fighter-interceptor and light attack high-wing Project,powered by two Snecma R105
turbojet engines,mounted at each lower side of the fuselage and immediately aft the cockpit,intended to use
from carrier aircraft
X-115 was a single seat high-wing tilt-jet interceptor VTOL Project,powered by two Snecma 105R turbojet
engines
X-116 Voltigeur was a 2/3 seat army support aircraft capable of observation and ground attack operation,
powered by two Wright Cyclones radial,later with 650 hp Turbomeca Bastan turboprop engines,later became
a SE-116
X-116B Voltigeur was a version powered by two 800 hp Wright C7 turboprop engines,Project,SE-116B
SE-117 Voltigeur was a third prototype,also powered by two 760 hp Turbomeca Bastan turboprop engines,
SE-118 Diplomate was a light transport version of X-117,with low-wing and powered by two 760 hp Turbomeca Bastan turboprop engines
SE-118/I Diplomate was a refined version of X-118,powered by two 760 hp Turbomeca Bastan turboprop
engines
SE-118/II Diplomate was a navigator trainer version,also powered by two 760 hp Turbomeca Bastan turboprop
engines
SE-119 was a project
X-120 was unknown design
X-121 was unknown design mentioned in Georges Messier's site
X-122,X-123 & X-124 were unknown designs
X-125 was a single and two seat versions,as a strike and ground attack Project for ECAT competition,powered
by two Rolls Royce RB.172 turbojet engines
X-126 to X-136 were unknown designs
X-137 was a high-wing AEW monoplane Project,powered by two 3042 hp Rolls Royce Dart turboprop or
Rolls Royce RB.172 turbojet engines,in three variants

 

[PhR]

I know all of these Infos,but it was derivative of this series 1xx,so the reader must know the numbers 117,.....etc,came
from where,that's my point,and I wrote them as following SE-117,SE-118 & SE-119,and you forget very import thing,
the series was raised up,X-120,X-121,X-122,X-123,X-124 & X-125,how I drop them out of the sequence ?!.

I don't forget this. Both SE 116 prototypes were respectively derived from X-116A and X-116B. But that's all. After, if any studies have been done under X-117, X-118 and X-119 numbers, they did not have any relationship with SE 116, SE 117, SE 118 and SE 119 projects and prototypes. You have just inventing them. Just thinking "logic" is not reality, as your thinking is only based on numbering sequence, which is not the base used to allocate study designation inside the company.

As we have already discussed above, there is no proof that these numbers were ever used. As I explained, they were not always allocated in sequence. They were sometimes reserved for future purpose and finally never assigned to any new study. Sometimes, the same number was reallocated to another topic some years after (such as X-350 for example).

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

If someone has time to redo the list incorporating @PhR revisions, I think we should lock this topic and start a new one with a revised list as a starting point. I might get time to do it myself.

@hesham you cannot argue with researchers using primary sources and personal experience using numerology. Your lists should only contain sourced information, not your private speculations based on number sequences and coincidence.

 

[hesham]

@hesham you cannot argue with researchers using primary sources and personal experience using numerology. Your lists should only contain sourced information, not your private speculations based on number sequences and coincidence.

That's right my dear PaulMM,

I want only to explain my point.