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Author Topic: Studies before the Tornado: NKF, AFVG, UKVG  (Read 35402 times)

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Studies before the Tornado: NKF, AFVG, UKVG
« on: July 11, 2006, 12:08:50 pm »
AFVG

It was a joint Anglo-French project, with British Aerospace leading, for a post TSR.2 strike aircraft. France were never particularly interested in this project; it did however serve as a useful way of getting hold of UK VG technology, which was based on years of research. Note that the Mirage G adopted a number of AFVG design features.

Sources:
  • Tony Buttler Secret Projects: Jet Bombers since 1945
  • Derek Wood Project Cancelled
  • Annals of the Polymorph, Air International
« Last Edit: April 22, 2007, 04:05:15 am by overscan »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Studies before the Tornado: NKF, AFVG, UKVG
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2006, 11:22:54 am »
2 pictures of the partially completed AFVG mockup.

Sources:
  • Doug Richardson, Modern Fighting Aircraft: Tornado, Salamander 1986
  • Annals of the Polymorph, Air International, May 1975
« Last Edit: September 29, 2006, 02:33:47 am by overscan »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Studies before the Tornado: NKF, AFVG, UKVG
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2006, 06:30:07 am »
AFVG Specification, 13 July 1965

All up weights of 30,000lb, 40,000lb, 50,000lb considered
Two seater
800kts at sea level, Mach 2.5 at altitude
Ceiling 60,000ft+
Takeoff/landing to 50 ft 850 yards
Radius of action 500nm (strike/recce)
Unrefuelled ferry range 3,500nm
Powerplant 2 x Bristol/SNECMA M45G turbofans
36 in radar dish with minimum AI range of 60nm

"Annals of the Polymorph",Air International, May 1975
« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 12:42:52 pm by overscan »
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Offline Archibald

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Re: Studies before the Tornado: NKF, AFVG, UKVG
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2006, 12:28:54 am »
How the hell could have the AFVG achieved mach 2.5 and 3500nm ferry range  :o with M-45 engines? only 5500 kgp each seems a bit weak no? are this good results a virtues of the VG wing? :)

Just love the AFVG program... had Dassault been much less stupid (a pure whatif  ;D), France would have had some kind of Tornado to replaced its Mirage IV in the nuclear strike role (much better than a Mirage 2000N!!!). The Mirage G and G8 were good as test aircrafts, but perfectly unuseful (too expensive!!!).
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine - Bordeaux - Mérignac / Dassault aviation museum
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Offline Pioneer

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Re: Studies before the Tornado: NKF, AFVG, UKVG
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2007, 04:50:49 am »
I am looking for information, drawings and mockups of the joint British (BAC)/French (Dassault) AFVG program, that I believe started in 1965.
The only info I have on the design was that the specification called for a two-seater variable-geometry wing design, with max speed of 800 kts at sea level and Mach 2.5 at altitude; operational ceiling of 60,000 ft, and a combat radius of 500 n miles.
I believe that a carrier-based variant for both the Royal Navy and French Navy was planned.
British Aircraft Corporation (BAC) was supposed to have built a mock up of the AFVG. Does anyone have pictures of this mock up?

What engines was it to have used?

What armament was it supposed to have carried?

Does anyone have the specifications for the AFVG?

Why was the program cancelled?

Was the AFVG a more capable design than the Tornado?


Regards
Pioneer



Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Studies before the Tornado: NKF, AFVG, UKVG
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2008, 11:42:31 am »
NKF
« Last Edit: March 03, 2008, 12:10:04 pm by overscan »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Studies before the Tornado: NKF, AFVG, UKVG
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2008, 12:11:16 pm »
AFVG
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Studies before the Tornado: NKF, AFVG, UKVG
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2008, 12:12:18 pm »
UKVG
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
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Online Jemiba

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Re: Studies before the Tornado: NKF, AFVG, UKVG
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2008, 12:29:16 pm »
Very interesting material again, I haven't seen before !
Just a question : Was the fixed wing design (file AFVG-2) purely for comparison ?
Seems a bit strange in a project, that by its name aimed at a VG aircraft. 
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Studies before the Tornado: NKF, AFVG, UKVG
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2008, 12:36:50 pm »
I imagine it was for reference, to prove the superiority of the VG layout.

Note the kinked nose: looks to me like it was designed to fit a large radar antenna for the AA role.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2008, 12:48:19 pm by overscan »
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
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Offline MIRAGE 4000

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Re: Studies before the Tornado: NKF, AFVG, UKVG
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2008, 03:24:30 pm »
will search soon AFVG information on French Armée de l'Air Archives ....
I want to open the archives .. still under "secret defense", but if I am lucky, I could read them !

Offline pometablava

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Re: Studies before the Tornado: NKF, AFVG, UKVG
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2008, 03:43:40 pm »
Quote
but if I am lucky

The force be with you my friend ;)

Offline uk 75

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Re: Studies before the Tornado: NKF, AFVG, UKVG
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2008, 03:53:43 am »
Fascinating stuff on this period. I think you will find that on the Whatifmodelers site someone (Thorvic?) did a nice model of the UKVG in in-service livery.
Bill Gunston covers the story in his Attack Aircraft of the West and reckons that the French Air Force never intended to take AFVG so I too will be interested to hear the French side of things.
UKFVG is pretty much the aircraft that the UK wanted instead of Tornado, but the compromise was necessary to get German money for the programme.
It is fascinating how the designs from OR 346 evolve into Tornado (a story told well in the Polymorphs article from Air Enthusiast).
BAC tried to give the AFVG its best shot and came pretty close to the eventual Tornado (the Vigilante intakes were a compromise between the German NKF and UKFVG suggestions which took everyone back to the Vickers tailless planes for OR 346).
Does anyone out there have any manufacturers brochures or pamphlets? Maybe at Warton, Manching or Weybridge?
UK 75

Offline alertken

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Re: Studies before the Tornado: NKF, AFVG, UKVG
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2008, 03:00:59 am »
OS is right. HSAL had done more VG work (AW.59/DH.127/Fo.147/HS.1170B/1171) than (non-Wallis) BAC, who had only modest study funds while busy on TSR.2. That cancellation left BAC Military Aircraft with zilch. MoA put them into AFVG post-TSR.2, and nominated them, not HSAL, for the Hunter/Gnat replacement (to be Jaguar; neither won a normal tender process), all to support them for the Saudi Magic Carpet deal. That was not just about selling Lightnings &tc., but about Defence burden-sharing East of Suez. BAC had no attributes that HSAL did not have...except an Air Defence platform, which US DoD supported as F-111K offset (R.Howe, Weapons, Sphere,1981: D.Healey: "we could not have made the bid, let alone won, without US assistance)".

The R&D pace of VG was driven by seals, pivot strength...mundane fabrication, solved by electron beam welding (a Cincinatti Milacron machine) in titanium. It was the licence of Grumman's F-111B centre-box that put MBB in the lead on NKF-75, thus MRCA. An IPR fee was paid to Grumman for its Tornado use.