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Author Topic: F-4E(S) & F-4X  (Read 21218 times)

Offline roberto_yeager

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F-4E(S) & F-4X
« on: January 24, 2007, 11:47:37 pm »
Any info??? Photos?? Drawings???

They are very strange projects, only 3 F-4E(S) build for Israel, and only a project about the F-4X.

Thanks a lot.


1Saludo

Offline Archibald

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Re: F-4E(S) & F-4X
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2007, 12:43:30 am »
Joe Baugher
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f4_29.html

This mutated Phantom would have been quite impressive...
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine - Bordeaux - Mérignac / Dassault aviation museum
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Offline shivering

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Re: F-4E(S), F-4X, & RF-4X
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2007, 01:29:28 am »
Cannot seem to find any good 3-view drawings of these
projects................can anyone help?

I will scrounge about for some pics.

A big thank you in advance for any help.


Shivering

Offline pometablava

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Re: F-4E(S) & F-4X
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2007, 01:32:51 am »
International Air Power Review Volume 19 ;)

Offline shivering

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Re: F-4E(S) & F-4X
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2007, 02:00:49 am »
There are a couple side elevation drawings only, in color,
of the Israeli F-4E(S) here:


http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww3/f/59/89/1


Shivering

Offline pometablava

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Re: F-4E(S) & F-4X
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2007, 02:45:27 am »
Tonight I'll post some info from Air Power

Offline GTX

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Re: F-4E(S) & F-4X
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2007, 11:21:54 am »
I have a complete article on it (Air International July 1985) if you're interested - I could probably scan it and e-mail it to you (accidently posting some pics here in the process).

Regards,

Greg

Offline roberto_yeager

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Re: F-4E(S) & F-4X
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2007, 12:02:12 am »
please Send it or post it or do it!!!!!



Thanks a lot!!!.



1Saludo

Offline dan_inbox

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Re: F-4E(S), F-4X, & RF-4X
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2007, 12:52:03 pm »
Cannot seem to find any good 3-view drawings of these projects................ can anyone help?
RF-4E(S) is not a 'project', it was actually built. Three planes were converted, 1st flight 1975.
It was named Shablool (snail) in the heyl ha avir.
It served a long time, and was retired recently.

Interestingly, even though they are recce planes supposed to avoid combat, Shablool 498 (now preserved at the Khatzerim museum) is credited with an air victory. An Iraqi interceptor tried to pursue it, managed to run himself out of fuel, and crashed.

Offline Yildirim

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Re: F-4E(S) & F-4X
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2007, 04:42:38 pm »
As I recall, the F-4X was supposed to be a mach 3+ phantom, basically a Foxbat killer. Israel saw it as an answer to the Egyptian based MiG-25 recon aircraft, but the USAF canceled the project in order to keep the field open for the F-15.     
"Madness," he murmured. I bowed. "But a great madness,"

Offline dan_inbox

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Re: F-4E(S) & F-4X
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2007, 11:55:24 pm »
Correct. The F-4X was a recce platform, not a 'Foxbat killer'.
Actually, it did not even have a radar.

Offline pometablava

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Re: F-4E(S) & F-4X
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2007, 04:34:53 am »
Gentlemen,

there is a bit of confussion here ???. We are talking about three related but different designs


F-4X

By 1971, the F-4E was not capable to intercep the MiG-25. It was a challenge for Israel AF who faced reccon flights from Egypt.
Israel concluded that the only solution at their hands was the application of Pre-Compressor Cooling technology to increase the GE J79 thurst. The USAF financed General Dynamics to develop a PCC Phantom, resulting in the F-4X project. The most significative modifications from F-4E were the dramatically enlarged and complex intakes, and the water tanks on top of the fuselage (you can see it at attached profile on on dan_inbox's post). Expected performance was Mach 3.2 dash and Mach 2.4 cruise. It would have been a "Foxbat hunter" but that beast was also a threat for the F-15 program. USA Congress was taking several long looks at both the F-14 and F-15 programs during 1971 with the goal of eliminating one of them to save money. F-15A rolled out of McDD's St Louis plant on June 26, 1972. Thus, the F-4X was cancelled and Israel get its MiG-25 interceptor with the F-15A Baaz supplied in 1975.


RF-4X

F-4X speed performance so brilliant (even the F-15 could not perform Mach 3.2 dash or Mach 2.4 cruise) that General Dynamics forwarded to the USAF a proposal to develop a reconnaissance version with a new nose section from which radar and cannon would were removed. The nose accommodated the General Dynamics HIAP-1 LOROP camera system. That aircraft was designed to fly a four minute "photo run" cruising at Mach 2.4 while flying at 78.000 feet. The proposal did not progress beyond the mock-up stage because USAF felt it as a threat to the F-15.
The RF-4X, not the F-4X, is the subject of attached profile on on dan_inbox's post.

F-4E(S) Shablool

McDD F-4E Kurnass deliveries to Israel AF from September 1969 was a serious headache for Egypt's security and President Nasser received help from the USSR in form of an ADF divission which was deployed in early 1970. From that moment, F-4E impunity was lost but also Israeli LOROP operations were neutralized.
A reccon aircraft capable to flight to avoid the SAM was to be sought:

Mirage IV was no longer viable for political reasons
SR-71 and U-2 were not approved for export.
RB-57F with GD HIAC-1 camera was approved for export but, at the end, was denied too.

The GD HIAC-1 fitted on the GD G-139 pod could be carried on the RF-4C centreline station but aircraft performance was downgraded enough to be out of Israeli needs. Israeli AF then suggested the RF-4X which was then on development but the US was reluctant to export such a high performance aircraft. A compromise was adopted in the form of the F-4E(S) for Special.
Project Peace Jack covered the modification of 3 Israeli AF F-4E Kurnass into F-4E(S). The Shablool reccon birds changed its "fighter noses" with the RF-4X "photo nose" an entered service during 1976.


Source: International Air Power Review Volume 19. There is an excellent article from Shlomo Aloni about F-4E(S) Shablool that I strongly recommend. (Well I strongly recommend an International Air Power Review suscription because it's one of the highest quality aviation magazines of the World  :-*)

I also took some bits of info form Aerofax Datagraph 6 "F-15" by Dennis R Jenkins.

Regards,
Antonio





Offline Archibald

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Re: F-4E(S) & F-4X
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2007, 05:23:58 am »
I just agree with that... confusion now rectified.
F-4X (mach 3.2 fighter)
RF-4X (recon variant with HIAC-1 LOROP camera)
F-4E(S) (standard RF-4 with the LOROP camera)

 ;)
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine - Bordeaux - Mérignac / Dassault aviation museum
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Offline Tophe

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Re: F-4E(S) & F-4X
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2007, 05:39:32 am »
Google/pictures, asking F-4X Phantom gave me this: a twin-fin (almost twin-tail) F-4... Nice! What-if fantasy?

from http://i1.tinypic.com/skxiti.jpg

Offline pometablava

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Re: F-4E(S) & F-4X
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2007, 06:32:51 am »
Quote
I just agree with that... confusion now rectified.
F-4X (mach 3.2 fighter)
RF-4X (recon variant with HIAC-1 LOROP camera)
F-4E(S) (standard RF-4 with the LOROP camera)

Sorry Archie, just a little "re-rectification" ;)

F-4E(S) (standard F-4E LOROP camera but not RF-4E)

Nice whatif art Thope, the artist possibly used F-4X designation to reflect a very modified aircraft.

May be he was inspired by the real F-15XX to photoshop its Phantom pic

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2.0.html


About the real F-4X: I think a profile could be easy produced replacing the photo nose from dan_inbox's RF-4X posted profile with an F-4E fighter nose. According to Mr Aloni's article the F-4X evolved from the F-4E variant. Any of our artists would produce an F-4X in operational colours (USAF or even IDF/AF). ::)