Obj 781/782/787: Russian tank fire support vehicle projects from late 80s

Exprimental TSV (tank support vechicle) projects from late 80-s

The top vehicle seems to have no main cannon--what are the butes to the sides of the turret? Missile launchers, or recoiless cannon?

interesting idea. Any additional info?

PS: Whats the tank model in the backround?

Andrey, are these ones that sitting at the backyard of Kubinka museum?

All three prototypes in the storerooms of Kubinka

As a guess the top one looks like an AA tank but that's an awful lot of chassis for the firepower.

These vehicles have a very close resemblance to the BMPT which was meant to be entering production but which is now rumoured to have been cancelled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMPT

this spring

This is probably all common knowledge by now, but:

The vehicle in the OP is Object 781, which possessed two 30mm 2A72 cannons and was built on the chassis of T-72B. The other two are Objects 787 and 782 which the latter possessed the BMP-3's turret and the former possessed two turrets with 2A72 cannons, anti-tank missiles of some type, 12.7mm heavy machine guns, and 7.62mm machine guns. Armament for both turrets was the same, I think. All three were developed in the 1980s in response to the same requirements that BMPT was developed from.


787


782


781

I'm rather curious about the tubes flanking the 2a72 of 781... anyone know what was meant to go in them?

the tubes are too small for an anti tank missile .
it's not a rocket launcher because the dispersion is big so you need more than 12 rockets . (the snora oerlikon rocket weapon system has 30 tubes)
May be it's a gun boosted rocket launcher , recoilless or not ( like the javelot) .
anyway it' not an antitank weapon like the other versions .

According to Andrei's site they are Kornet launchers. Might just be the empty holder for the actual missile tubes though.

Avimimus said:

I'm rather curious about the tubes flanking the 2a72 of 781... anyone know what was meant to go in them?

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While tround's reservations are understandable, they could be tubes for 80mm S-8 rockets. The Russians have tried them on armored vehicles before (on a BMD and the BMA, which is the airfield defense version of the 9A34M2, 9A34M3-K Strela-10 combat vehicle).

Would dispersion be that much of a problem if they are just being used to demolish buildings using an FAE warhead (S-8DM)?


RP1

I have made a mistake, the first vehicle is built on the chassis of T-72AV (plainly evident from the small Kontakt-1 ERA bricks, no variant of -B mounted K-1), not -B. I am unsure how the engineers modified the hulls to incorporate hull gunners, though. 787 and the 782 equipped vehicle date from the 1980's (between 1986-1990). They are all made by Chelyabinsk. The source is a webpage called "History of the BMPT" < http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://arsenal-otechestva.ru/k-istorii-sozdaniya-bmpt.html&usg=ALkJrhhu3yfxaJmdLDindlmBq9yvq5u0bA >. 787 had some form of unguided rockets in addition to the 30mm cannons and heavy machine guns.

The vehicles were designed from Russian experience in Afghanistan (and later, Chechnya), where vehicles such as BMP-2 and ZSU-23-4 were found exceptional effective at suppressing anti-tank missile and RPG teams.

With regards to Object 781, the last the vehicle, the ATGW chosen was indeed Kornet. Wikipedia states "six", but I believe that is only two in the image, so perhaps some launchers are missing. More likely, it is stating the missile load carried internally and not the launchers, though. It also states that 781 was chosen for further development, and it has a very clear resemblance to the modern-day BMPT in terms of armament, layout, and protection.

I'm certain the Russian members of the forum will be able to elucidate upon these AFVs far better than I, though.

tround said:

the tubes are too small for an anti tank missile .
it's not a rocket launcher because the dispersion is big so you need more than 12 rockets . (the snora oerlikon rocket weapon system has 30 tubes)
May be it's a gun boosted rocket launcher , recoilless or not ( like the javelot) .
anyway it' not an antitank weapon like the other versions .

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I believe the specific rockets used were similar to or derived from RPO-A, but I do not have a source to support this.

Void said:

According to Andrei's site they are Kornet launchers. Might just be the empty holder for the actual missile tubes though.

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They are too small to be Kornet. If you look at the third vehicle I posted, you can see a pair of Kornet launchers on the right turret.

RP1 said:

Would dispersion be that much of a problem if they are just being used to demolish buildings using an FAE warhead (S-8DM)?


RP1

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The likely employment would be at extremely close ranges at identified RPG teams, where dispersion is arbitrary. The vehicle was probably not chosen for further development as it lacked sufficient long-range firepower to support main battle tanks in the open field against ATGW teams, and self-protection against main battle tanks.

Why would you fire unguided rockets at a close range RPG team when you already have such a powerful gun armament which has higher velocity and easier aiming?


A far more likely use for unguided rockets is to fire a quick WP smoke screen to suppress enemy missile crews and guidance systems at long range. The US Army was interested in 70mm ground fired rockets for the same purpose in this era.

Sea Skimmer said:

Why would you fire unguided rockets at a close range RPG team when you already have such a powerful gun armament which has higher velocity and easier aiming?


A far more likely use for unguided rockets is to fire a quick WP smoke screen to suppress enemy missile crews and guidance systems at long range. The US Army was interested in 70mm ground fired rockets for the same purpose in this era.

Click to expand...

If the rocket had a fragmentation warhead it could saturate a much larger area at close range than the cannon could. To be sure of hitting a target it actually helps to be at greater ranges as it allows dispersion to spread the detonating rounds over a broader areas. It could also be used against teams which are inside buildings as a rocket can instantly demolish structures in a way that an autocannon won't.

Basically, a 30mm autocannon round has a lethal radius of around 3m (maybe twice that for a low velocity grenade round), while a typical 80mm rocket has a lethal radius of 10-12 metres. For comparison, an S-8 cocket has 3300g HE inside a 5kg warhead compared to the 49g bursting charge in a 30mm round.

Why does that ERA 787 look like a pile of ammo crates travelling in loose formation?
Hah!
Hah!