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Author Topic: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.  (Read 414909 times)

Offline Herman

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1650 on: March 07, 2017, 11:48:07 am »
      Sibmas, about halfway through the video.

   More photos of the Sibmas FSV, of the Malaysian army, about halfway through the video.

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1651 on: March 07, 2017, 12:39:08 pm »
Thanks for the interesting background summary, Herman!
To the Stars

Offline sa_bushwar

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« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 12:37:05 am by sa_bushwar »

Offline Herman

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1653 on: March 08, 2017, 11:08:36 pm »
Reply to post #1653
Thanks. The Sibmas is mechanically slightly different to the Ratel in that the engine is a 12 liter MAN rather than the Büssing engine used in the Ratel and the Sibmas uses a ZF 6HP transmission which, as far as I can tell, is coupled directly to the engine, with a seperate transfer case between the first and second axle whereas, in the Ratel, the engine is connected by a shaft to the Renk HS106 integrated gearbox and transfer case situated between the first and second axle. Axles are the same MAN units on coils. Although Büssing apparently still operated independently, to some extent, in the seventies, the company had been taken over by MAN in the sixties. The design of the Ratel and the Sibmas was therefore all under the umbrella of the MAN concern.

I have very little doubt that the Prototype Buffel had been built in Germany, the more I think about it. The only company building armoured vehicles in SA, in the mid-seventies, was Sandock-Austral, who was building the Eland. The Ratel was a totally different kettle of fish, requiring a lot of expertise in the field of integrating power-packs, suspension geometry, etc. We know that the Buffel prototype was extensively tested in SA before being declared the best vehicle of all those tested. Sandock Austral did not have the expertise to built a one-off prototype which immediately worked great. I am convinced that the Buffel prototype was the result of development work done in Germany, in the sixties, by the Joint Project Office, during the development of the Luchs and the Transportpanzer 6. It should also be remembered that all the candidate vehicles tested during the selection process for the Ratel, were manufactured in other countries (France, Germany and Brazil), except the mysterious 8-wheeled Sprinkaan, currently in a dilapidated state at the School of Armour Museum, in Bloemfontein. This was supposedly constructed by the Technical Services Department of the SA Army. Nothing is known of this vehicle and there are no records of it being tested during the trials.

Offline skylancer-3441

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1654 on: March 12, 2017, 05:31:51 pm »
A very similar vehicle was offered to the Belgians and went into production there as the Sibmas APC. It was even closer to the initial Buffel prototype than the Ratel finally turned out.
http://imgur.com/a/i72Cw some pics of what appears to be some early version of Sibmas.

Offline Herman

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1655 on: March 21, 2017, 03:45:57 am »
The following are the technical details of the Ratel Log, as far as I could figure it out. Figures for the standard Ratel in brackets.
Overall length:           8.74 meters (7.212 meters
Overall width:            2.516 meters (same)
Empty weight:          19 tonnes (16.500 tonnes (Ratel 20))
Combat weight:        29 tonnes (18.500 tonnes)
Wheelbase:               1.7 x 2.81 x 1.4 (total=5.91 meters) (2.81 x 1.4 meters)
Track:                       2.08 meters (same)
Tyres:                       14 x 20 (same)
Ground clearance:    0.415 meters (0.34 meters)
Turning radius:         10.5 meters (7.95 meters)
Vertical obstacle:      0.6 meters (0.35 meters)
Trench crossing:      2.1 meters (1.15 meters)
Engine:                     Mercedes (ADE) V10 diesel, 15.960 liters, 430hp @ 2300 rpm. (Büssing BTXF, 282hp @ 2200 rpm)
Transmission:           6 speed automatic. I have not yet been able to find the make and type, but it is bound to be either a ZF or Renk. (RenkHSU 106, 6-speed automatic).
Fuel capacity:           560 liters (430 liters)

Noteable differences compared to the standard Ratel, aside from the 8x8 configuration and the bigger engine, is that the ground clearance is significantly greater that that of the Ratel. The ground clearance of the Log is determined by the height of the axle differentials. On the standard Ratel, it is determined by the transmission hanging down below between the first and second axle. The transmission of the Log was mounted parallel, next to the engine, I think. Both the trench crossing ability and the obstacle climbing ability of the Log is greater than those of the standard vehicle; this is due to the double axles at the front.

Offline panzerskool

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1656 on: April 14, 2017, 12:07:14 am »
I'm reading Mobility Conquers and in the section on operation Reindeer (first use of ratels) they talk about dedicated Ratel Ambulances that had been modified from a standard Ratel 20. Never seen or heard about these before . Anyone know anything?

Offline Herman

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1657 on: April 17, 2017, 07:33:38 am »
Never heard of that. Might have been a kind of ersatz temporary conversion because the dedicated MRAP ambulances (Rinkhals) were not available yet.

Offline sa_bushwar

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1658 on: April 17, 2017, 10:07:51 am »
And here is a Ratel 20 now in Libya in March 2017 without main armament being used for what seems to be a command vehicle. Clearly it is not fitted with run-flat tyres as makeshift steel plates have been fitted over the wheels.

Offline Herman

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1659 on: April 18, 2017, 10:57:42 pm »
Although run-flat tyres are often mentioned in connection with South African armoured vehicles, I doubt if they were often, or possibly ever, used. One always sees pictures of Ratels with one ot more spare tyres piled on the back.

Offline Kadija_Man

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1660 on: April 18, 2017, 11:01:31 pm »
Although run-flat tyres are often mentioned in connection with South African armoured vehicles, I doubt if they were often, or possibly ever, used. One always sees pictures of Ratels with one ot more spare tyres piled on the back.

Run-flat tyres only work for about 100-150km after being holed by gunfire.   In South Africa, you also have to contend with 150mm long thorns which pierce the sidewalls of the tyre when on long road marches.  The result is that wheeled vehicles often carry more tyres than you'd need in Europe or any other sort of benign environment.   If your tyre is holed you need to replace it at your next halt.   

Offline panzerskool

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1661 on: April 19, 2017, 03:28:23 am »
Although run-flat tyres are often mentioned in connection with South African armoured vehicles, I doubt if they were often, or possibly ever, used. One always sees pictures of Ratels with one ot more spare tyres piled on the back.

A number of references to ratel using run flats during Reindeer in Mobility conquers so it is combat proven . A great book if you guys can get your hands on it, i ordered mine form Amazon for Dubai delivery

Offline 61mech

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1662 on: April 27, 2017, 03:42:15 am »
We used run-flats quite a lot. They used red wheel nuts to distinguish them from regular tires. I remember they were heavy as all hell.


Although run-flat tyres are often mentioned in connection with South African armoured vehicles, I doubt if they were often, or possibly ever, used. One always sees pictures of Ratels with one ot more spare tyres piled on the back.

Offline Herman

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1663 on: April 28, 2017, 12:04:13 am »
OK. Thanks for the info. They are both heavy and expensive. That is one reason why I thought they might not have been used a lot.

Offline Dinges

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1664 on: April 28, 2017, 09:53:30 am »
The following are the technical details of the Ratel Log, as far as I could figure it out. Figures for the standard Ratel in brackets.
Overall length:           8.74 meters (7.212 meters
Overall width:            2.516 meters (same)
Empty weight:          19 tonnes (16.500 tonnes (Ratel 20))
Combat weight:        29 tonnes (18.500 tonnes)
Wheelbase:               1.7 x 2.81 x 1.4 (total=5.91 meters) (2.81 x 1.4 meters)
Track:                       2.08 meters (same)
Tyres:                       14 x 20 (same)
Ground clearance:    0.415 meters (0.34 meters)
Turning radius:         10.5 meters (7.95 meters)
Vertical obstacle:      0.6 meters (0.35 meters)
Trench crossing:      2.1 meters (1.15 meters)
Engine:                     Mercedes (ADE) V10 diesel, 15.960 liters, 430hp @ 2300 rpm. (Büssing BTXF, 282hp @ 2200 rpm)
Transmission:           6 speed automatic. I have not yet been able to find the make and type, but it is bound to be either a ZF or Renk. (RenkHSU 106, 6-speed automatic).
Fuel capacity:           560 liters (430 liters)

Noteable differences compared to the standard Ratel, aside from the 8x8 configuration and the bigger engine, is that the ground clearance is significantly greater that that of the Ratel. The ground clearance of the Log is determined by the height of the axle differentials. On the standard Ratel, it is determined by the transmission hanging down below between the first and second axle. The transmission of the Log was mounted parallel, next to the engine, I think. Both the trench crossing ability and the obstacle climbing ability of the Log is greater than those of the standard vehicle; this is due to the double axles at the front.

From what I have seen , the Log used conventional wheels of the same size , but not the split rim of the Ratel.