DARPA/Boeing X-51A WaveRider

Dark Eagle said:
In 1986, Field studies at the Bikini Atoll determine that cesium becomes part of the food chain in that plants and animals absorb it in place of potassium. On that small island It cost more than 60 million dollars to reduce the absorption rate near to the same levels as potassium. At which it was determined that the cesium plume will continue to spread as long as life exist.
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It is my understanding that the issue at Bikini was the uptake of radioactive cesium-137 isotope into plants and foods due to the lack of potassium in the coral-based soils of the atoll. This situation was ameliorated by the addition of potassium to the soils. Further, the effects have diminished due to the 30-year half-life of cesium-137 and there are indications that the biological half-life may be even shorter. (For further research, there have been many reports on the cesium-137/potassium preferential substitution mechanism in the wake of the Fukishima disaster.)

I would strongly assume that radioactive cesium isotopes were not used as JP-7 additives.

See: https://marshallislands.llnl.gov/bikini.php
 
I contemplated that guess as well.

One of the original CIA pilots told me ~ I'll leave out his name for obvious reasons.

"I remember that a Cesium additive was tested to reduce the reflective nature of the AB plumes. It was known as A-50 additive. I know nothing about it’s effectiveness."

~~~~~~~~~~~
Handling cesium is a very risky venture, a tiny amount the size of a pin head dropped in a pale of water would result in an explosion, contaminate a large area, and ruin any equipment it came in contact with.

Quality control would also be an issue, regarding proper mixtures, etc.

There was no knowledge of procedures for adding fuel additives during the program.

By Mr. Lovick's statement "My first proposal was to use cesium because, in vapor form it has the lowest first ionization potential of all the chemical elements and therefore, would be the best source of free electrons that would do the absorption and scattering required."

"My first proposal". was there a second proposal?

"In vapor form it has the lowest first ionization potential". The first ionization energy is the energy required to remove one electron. The outer electrons are easier to remove.

The MSDS for JP-7 at the time of operations stated the components of the fuel were listed as a "Trade Secret".

Later MSDS for JP-7 after the program were modified to require full impervious protective suits and full face air supplied respiratory protection. For Kerosene????

I still have to determine what type or form of cesium was used and at which part of the process it was added.

At my request the USAF has now conducted what they termed "Exhaustive Investigations" with the 9th RW IG, the HQACC/IG, the Chief of Science and Technology at the AF Petroleum Agency, and the USAFSAM/OEHT.

They concluded, "Based on the available information, we were unable to substantiate the Air Force’s use of cesium in SR-71 operations at Beale AFB. Accordingly, there are no plans to study alleged cesium exposures of personnel who worked the SR-71 program."

I was also informed by the 9th RW Historian that all SR-71 Program data was contained, sealed, and coded not to be release even after normal FOIA time constraints. Which basically means that no one will ever have access to those records at any level.

With all the documents that have been released confirming that cesium was used, I would think that the USAF would go out of it's way to provide documentation that it was not used. But, of course that's speculation.

As far a history perspective. It was the most important aspect of the most important aviation the program in the history of the United States. Whether it was used or not or used and then not used later in the program that is a significant part of aviation history.

One of the most curious aspects in the use of cesium is the fact the the original "History of the OXCART Program" plainly states that it was the reason to go ahead with the project. That statement was also confirmed by the man himself Ed Lovick in his biography.

Why then would such an important part of the Worlds most important aviation program be omitted in the documents "rewrite" by the CIA Historian. Another cover-up perhaps?

As far as the cesium at Bikini Atoll. They thought the radioactivity had diminished and let the native inhabitants return to their homeland. They could not find dangerous levels of radioactivity. It wasn't until they discovered that the cesium was replacing their potassium in their diet through the food chain when the removed them from the islands again. Cesium does not have to be radioactive to harm you, it will replace potassium in your body, cause heart arrhythmia's and cancer. If it is radioactive that's all the worst.

If it was in the SR-71 fuel, many workers were exposed on a daily basis, without proper hazardous communication standards, workers would then unknowingly cross contaminate family members including young children. (Launder soiled uniforms at home, etc.)

Many Blackbird workers have cancers, and many have died.
 
Dark Eagle said:
I still have to determine what type or form of cesium was used and at which part of the process it was added.
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Fuel and additive were mixed before being fed to the engine. JP-7 was not stored with the additive, the mixing was done immediately before injection to the engine. JP-7 and the additive were stored separately, and the additive was not used on all flights. For example, the NASA aircraft never used the additive. According to Lovick:

"At the P&W Florida Research and Development Center, a group designed and tested several fuel control valves to accommodate the required fuel and additive flow rates required." Lovick, "Radar Man", 155

Dark Eagle said:
As far as the cesium at Bikini Atoll.
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That was cesium-137, a radioactive cesium isotope. During the development of the A-12, a number of different alkali metal salts were tested. These included sodium choloride, potassium chloride, and cesium chloride. The final composition was a little different, but not much:
"In order to simplify the injection problem the Customer had some work done on a cesium compound, cesium stearate, that was soluble in the fuel. A fuel soluble compound that finally was used in flight tests was 30 percent cesium metal in dialkyl phosphite." Lovick, "Radar Man", 156
At no time was a radioactive isotope of cesium used. There was no reason to. The forms of cesium used have no special toxicity associated with them.

JP-7 does not contain cesium, much less cesium-137, so it's not really a concern for the X-51.
 
Thanks for the info, that's the best news I've heard in 4 years.

I always thought that an injection system would have been the way to go.

I have never seen such an injection system on the HABU. I never knew of anyone who serviced such a system. But, that doesn't mean it didn't exist.

I wonder if Cesium Stearate has an MSDS? I had never seen one of those either.

The fact that JP-7 does not contain cesium is good news for all the veterans. It's also good to know that no radioactive isotope was used as well, although I didn't think it would have been.

I'm not confident that toxicity classifications are correct and up to date since this information of it's use is only now coming to fruition.

The only thing left to consider is whether or not cesium stearate is toxic by that use and those routes of exposure through the inhalation of burning exhaust.

Then again it may be that this system was only used in the A-12 and not the SR-71. That would put into perspective countermeasure or stealth differences between the aircraft, a fascinating development in their history.

Thanks for the info quellish, my sight has a narrower focus. Your research has answered many questions.
 
DSE said:
shockonlip said:
On X-51 they use Ethylene as the chemical igniter.

The process whereby JP-7 fuel absorbs heat on a hypersonic aircraft is an endothermic
process.
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A better description might be that the ethylene is the initial cold start fuel which is ignited with spark igniters. This helps set up the dual-mode operation of the flowpath and provides heat to hex panels of the engine so that when the transition is made to JP-7 the structure is hot enough to heat the fuel to the required conditions/state. JP-7 with its high flash point is was/is also used as the hydraulic fluid in this case for the fueldraulic hot gas distribution valves.
...
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Interesting. In the X-51 slides from the recent SF Spaceplanes Conference it said: "Engine ignition on ethylene & transition to JP-7"
and "Scramjet started on ethylene & transitioned to JP-7". So I then assumed ethylene was used like the ethyl (C2H5) molecules in
TEB (although ethylene is C2H4). Anyway, thanks for the additional detail. From slide 45 on X-51 flight one, it looks like ethylene
ignition is at around 35sec and JP-7 is at around 43-45 sec. So maybe 8-10 secs of ethylene combustion to heat the heat exchangers
per your description, if they will follow the same program.
 
Dark Eagle said:
...
Low RCS or Stealth was the primary reason for the HABU's to be built. Without it, the heat of their propulsion system would have lit up enemy heat detectors like the midday sun. With good lead time an SA-5 missile would make the Blackbird look like it was standing still.
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The blackbird (at least the SR-71) had other defensive capabilities besides speed.

There were occasions in Vietnam when SAM's were at altitude awaiting SR-71's. As you may recall, there were fishing trawlers
watching for SR takeoffs near Okinawa, as well as sometimes, SRs made return passes. The best defense used ECM, and also exploited
the missiles guidance weaknesses. No SR aircraft were downed, although there was at least one case of an overcooked response
outside the aerodynamic envelope that ended up OK. My source is a Vietnam veteran SR driver I met and spoke with at the SMOF
D-21 party.
 
quellish said:
...
During the development of the A-12, a number of different alkali metal salts were tested. ...
The forms of cesium used have no special toxicity associated with them.
JP-7 does not contain cesium, much less cesium-137, so it's not really a concern for the X-51.
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This is not the only use of seeding engine exhausts with alkali metals.

Back in the 1950's there was work on forming weak plasmas via alkali metal seeding and then
accelerating such flows with magnets for additional thrust. Or using such a flow to pull electrical
power from it.

They also looked at it for accelerating wind tunnels.
 
shockonlip said:
This is not the only use of seeding engine exhausts with alkali metals.

Back in the 1950's there was work on forming weak plasmas via alkali metal seeding and then
accelerating such flows with magnets for additional thrust. Or using such a flow to pull electrical
power from it.
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There was work on that as recently as the late '90's, IIRC.
 
Grey Havoc said:
shockonlip said:
This is not the only use of seeding engine exhausts with alkali metals.

Back in the 1950's there was work on forming weak plasmas via alkali metal seeding and then
accelerating such flows with magnets for additional thrust. Or using such a flow to pull electrical
power from it.
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There was work on that as recently as the late '90's, IIRC.
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That correct.

Actually, there was very interesting plasma work going on even just a few years ago, but they all
didn't use active chemical radicals or the seediing echnique to achieve weak ionization. Capillary
discharge, electrical discharge between electrodes, microwave discharge, electron beams, and laser
energy deposition (used with JP-7/O2 I might add) were some of the other mechanisms used.
 
shockonlip said:
Back in the 1950's there was work on forming weak plasmas via alkali metal seeding and then
accelerating such flows with magnets for additional thrust. Or using such a flow to pull electrical
power from it.

They also looked at it for accelerating wind tunnels.
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Ed lovick's description of project emerald wind tunnels tests (in his RADAR Man book) has a "kind of" parallel with these ideas, something in the description fascinates me about these apparently unsucessful tests. Does anyone know of any further sources of information on project emerald?

Thanks
 
I believe Mr. Lovick had a high concern for the safety of the people working under him and the safety factors of the results of such projects that he developed. Mr. Lovick had a desire to become a medical doctor, he therefore had an ethical conscience to the results of any systems that he played a part in development.
I also think he was a patriot and weight carefully the benefits to those hazards.

The projects such as Emerald and Kempster / La Croix were dangerous or added too much weight to the aircraft.
 
Catalytic said:
Does anyone know of any further sources of information on project emerald?
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Dark Eagle said:
I believe Mr. Lovick had a high concern for the safety of the people working under him and the safety factors of the results of such projects that he developed. Mr. Lovick had a desire to become a medical doctor, he therefore had an ethical conscience to the results of any systems that he played a part in development.
I also think he was a patriot and weight carefully the benefits to those hazards.

The projects such as Emerald and Kempster / La Croix were dangerous or added too much weight to the aircraft.
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I'll take that as a no from your good self :p (sorry if that sounds rude, it was not my intention), can anyone else illuminate us regarding emerald?

I have no axe to grind regarding the operational use of a La Croix device (apparently a Kempster device was test flown twice), aside from it's unknown and unflown 'cloaking' performance your point that La Croix was weight prohibitive was no doubt the driving force for it's absence in the aircraft. X-ray exposure to pilots would seem small change compared to your intriguing hypothesis on blackbirds crop dusting the world with Caesium (again I don't mean to sound rude, it is a seductive idea, although there is the possibility that whilst the fuel additive idea sealed the deal with the CIA, it might have later proved impractical and was quietly dropped).

I have to say that the comments in the public domain relating to the use of a Caesium additive (AKA panther piss) coupled with the apparent absence of an onboard premix tank to hold this additive would imply supplier or ground crew addition / mixing with 'straight JP-7'. (I think I'm right in saying that one museum Blackbird still shows the trade mark tiny holes in the Q-bay required for the fitting of a kempster device, interesting that an additive tank has never turned up?)

regards to emerald, this would seem to have progressed no further than very noisy blow-down supersonic wind tunnel tests, at least one of which was hampered by the large valve doors fluttering?
 
good feedback, no problem, I just say what I know or at least what I think I know until I learn different. :p

I have developed a sense of reasoning though logical deduction "quickly". I was the Chief Metals Technologist on the worlds biggest hunk of MACH 3 T Beta Titanium. I fixed and made these Sleds fly missions of the highest national priority for over 5 years, real world black ops, under emergency condition. My other assignments were prp qualified to work cocked, nuclear weapons and their systems. Have you ever stared down the barrel of an M-16 while getting ready to pound on a live SRAM Nuke with a ball peen hammer?

Yep! Interesting about them particle ray guns. It seems like it wasn't worth the effort. I try to stay away from particles. I'm sure they tested it on-board. It's funny how they plan limits on the pilots flying it. They did sound paranoid working around it in the test chamber.


About the cesium, with the information provided, it only makes sense to have the additive mixed in the fuel. Any system would require maintenance, calibration, handling. It would be much easier to have it as a component to the fuel supplier. That may be the reasoning why it was said that JP-7 "kerosene" was so costly. It would be too risky to reveal such a cloaking device.

Even though the Air Force says all the SR-71 operations data was sealed and coded not to be released even after normal FOIA time constraints, You would think that if it wasn't used in the fuel, the criticality of the issue would warrant a statement other than they couldn't find any information about it.

I believe it could be possible that under such security conditions and compartmentalization, not even the commanders would have known about it's eventual use, not even Mr. Lovick.

I would love to see some information or data, even a cover story proving that cesium was not a component of the fuel, and if it was used I would like to see veterans get this information annotated into their VA medical records for treatment of related issues. If that stuff worked, I couldn't believe they wouldn't use it, our Blackbirds and crews were much too valuable to risk. They were "The Untouchables", We were "The Expendable".
 
Your Area 51 guinea pig theory makes your SR-71 story or any other post of yours noncredible
 
Dark Eagle said:
I was the Chief Metals Technologist on the worlds biggest hunk of MACH 3 T Beta Titanium. I fixed and made these Sleds fly missions of the highest national priority for over 5 years, real world black ops, under emergency condition. My other assignments were prp qualified to work cocked, nuclear weapons and their systems. Have you ever stared down the barrel of an M-16 while getting ready to pound on a live SRAM Nuke with a ball peen hammer?
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I haven't seen an M16 barrel from any angle, never mind hit a SRAM with a hammer! Kudos to you and the service that you gave!
 
Everybody cross your fingers. (I plan on sacrificing a chicken or three for the effort.)
 
Demon Lord Razgriz said:
Should have made it 7 Chickens for more power to the sacrifice. :'(
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A search for pure young maidens may be in order.
getsmiley.php
 
Grey Havoc said:
Demon Lord Razgriz said:
Should have made it 7 Chickens for more power to the sacrifice. :'(
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A search for pure young maidens may be in order.
getsmiley.php
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At this point they'll probably need to sacrifice a dragon. High speed research in the US is a complete joke.
 
A few months ago I was at Edwards and got to have dinner with the commanding general there. He was pretty disappointed that the USAF was essentially ending hypersonics research. He was hopeful that a successful X-51 test would help convince the administration to reverse course. I know that other hypersonics experts shared a similar hope. But the money is being gutted for this research. It's just going away. Again.
 
sferrin said:
At this point they'll probably need to sacrifice a dragon.
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The only two places I know of, offhand, where you could get a dragon are Baen's Bar and HP&CA. Attempting to kidnap a dragon from either place would more than likely turn out to be a suicide mission. Any volunteers?
 
DSE said:
blackstar said:
A few months ago I was at Edwards and got to have dinner with the commanding general there. He was pretty disappointed that the USAF was essentially ending hypersonics research. He was hopeful that a successful X-51 test would help convince the administration to reverse course. I know that other hypersonics experts shared a similar hope. But the money is being gutted for this research. It's just going away. Again.
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Not sure what this is in reference to. The AFRL Robust Scramjet Program continues as planned as does the HiFIRE program as well.
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Are either one of them planning to actually fly hardware?
 
DSE said:
Not sure what this is in reference to. The AFRL Robust Scramjet Program continues as planned as does the HiFIRE program as well.
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Look at the budgets.
 
http://www.youtube.com/user/airboyd#p/search/0/7RqMZ5GWSmA
 
sferrin said:
At this point they'll probably need to sacrifice a dragon. High speed research in the US is a complete joke.
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From the country that brought us the X-1, D-558, X-2, U-2, X-15, X-24, Blackbird the Lunar missions, Voyager, Viking and the Space Shuttle (plus all the undisclosed programs) this is quite a let down. Why does it seem like they don't know how to use the taxpayer's money properly anymore?
 
Stargazer2006 said:
From the country that brought us the X-1, D-558, X-2, U-2, X-15, X-24, Blackbird the Lunar missions, Voyager, Viking and the Space Shuttle (plus all the undisclosed programs) this is quite a let down. Why does it seem like they don't know how to use the taxpayer's money properly anymore?
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I guess I see it differently. As the country that did all of that, and seeing the problems we're having developing reliable air breathing hypersonic technology, I think it just demonstrates the level of difficulty involved in what they're doing. If it was easy, it would already have been done.

Mod edit: Ultrasuperhyperquotes again? Please edit your messages to contain only the last post from the conversation you are responding to. Thanks.

Duly noted.
 
Sundog said:
Mod edit: Ultrasuperhyperquotes again? Please edit your messages to contain only the last post from the conversation you are responding to. Thanks.
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Well, in this particular case I'd left it because my post was an answer to the whole string of quotes, not just to the last one. But anyway, I've edited the post.
 
Stargazer2006 said:
Well, in this particular case I'd left it because my post was an answer to the whole string of quotes, not just to the last one.
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If you have but one reply, whether it's a single word, a single sentence or a single page, you don't need much more than:

Stargazer2006 said:
*SOME **STUFF*
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And then your reply.

If you are making a *general* reply, once you make it plain what post you're replying to, you've done your due diligence.
 
So we can't lose our cool about these failures.
We'll get it figured out.
It's actually getting interesting.

After several failures now (even though they they aren't really calling flight 1 a failure),
I am puzzled why X-51 seems so much harder to get going than the X-43 was. The
X-43 had the first failure of a booster fin separating causing loss of control, but then
the next several flights seemed to come off without any of the problems the X-51 is
experiencing.

Sorry to sound like a Monday morning quarterback, but should we have brought more
of the X-43 over to the X-51 program? In other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

I'm just trying to learn from this as well.
 
I think the above helps to pinpoint some of the key differences between one program
that seemed to reliably work and the newer program which is trying to develop
more production level technology for a production hypersonic system, and is having
what I'd call teething troubles.

I also looked in the paper: "X-51 Development: A Chief Engineer's Perspective" from
this past mid-April 17th AIAA International Space Planes and Hypersonic Systems and
Technologies Conference in SF for relevant info re: what happened in flight 2.

On pg. 26, I reproduce here, it talks about engine ignition on ehtylene and transition
to JP-7 as one of the key risks in the engine development program and how they
tried to mitigate the risk.

So obviously they will go re-evaluate that.

Later in the paper they talked about how they fixed the problems found in flight 1
and checked/fixed each of the remaining 3 vehicles.

DSE's comments on the HEX structure are also interesting.

To me it would be nice to have an emergency JP-7 start capability like a few
shots of TEB ala SR-71 if th HEX isn't doing the trick to prep the JP-7. The SR
had a small tank on top of each J58 with up to 16 shots of TEB. Seemed to
work good with cold JP-7. Just have it "in case".

But I'm just up in the peanut gallery shouting cheers to the guys not to gve up !!

GO DUDES GO !!

 
DSE said:
FYI, X-51 testers perform perfectly during imperfect mission:
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Now if we can figure out how to get the X-51 itself to do so before the program is cancelled.
 
As far as high speed strike weaponry is concerned - while we should still keep a robust hypersonic/scramjet program - we should have an intermediate solution like a SRAM II type conventional missile until we transition into air breathing systems.
 
does any one know when the 3th flight is? ???
At the beginning of the program newspapers stated 1 flight a month for 10 months ;D
 
bobbymike said:
As far as high speed strike weaponry is concerned - while we should still keep a robust hypersonic/scramjet program - we should have an intermediate solution like a SRAM II type conventional missile until we transition into air breathing systems.
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Or even better, the 30 year old ASALM.
 

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