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Author Topic: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"  (Read 16585 times)

Offline giorgio

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I came across this unknown-to-me two-engined fighter, reading an old aviation magazine. Is there some people knowing more of it?
it seems to have been designed but the  end of the war led to its demise....

thanks to all the contributors

Giorgio from Torino
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 03:11:43 am by Stargazer2006 »

Offline Apophenia

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Skybolt probably has the complete story  ;D

Fiat R.23 - 1942 fighter monoplane project powered by two Fiat A.83 RC.24-52 'Vortice' radial engines (with possible DB603 or DB605 alternatives)

http://www.itisrieti.com/images/storia%20istituto/aerei.htm

Offline Skybolt

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Sure, it was one of the last known projects by Celestino Rosatelli. I have darwings. Just let me scan them.

Offline Apophenia

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Just let me scan them.

Looking forward to that!

Offline MC72

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2010, 02:52:24 pm »
The Rosatelli heavy fighter, foresaw different powerplants, such as the Fiat A83 RC24-52 of 1200 Hp Each
Here a three view with a unknow engine
Maybe you have more info

Saludos
MC72

« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 04:47:01 pm by MC72 »
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Offline Apophenia

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2010, 03:24:52 pm »
Thanks MC72! Going by the front view, those engines are presumably the Daimler-Benz (although the top view look very skinny!).

Offline Pepe Rezende

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2010, 12:57:58 am »
Thanks MC72! Going by the front view, those engines are presumably the Daimler-Benz (although the top view look very skinny!).

For me seems Isotta Fraschini Delta engines...

Offline MC72

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2010, 04:38:39 pm »
In a summary appeared in the Italian magazine Alata, a brief review of some prototypes to war-end, see the Fiat R-23 which foresees a pair of Fiat A-83 RC24 radials of 1250 hp each.
The design does appear to be a Delta Isotta Fraschini Asso or Delta but without the 1250 Hp of the Fiat A-83  of the list of Alata.

Saludos
MC72
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 04:46:09 pm by MC72 »
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Offline hesham

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2010, 05:10:31 am »
Hi MC72,

what was Umbra B 55 M ?

Offline MC72

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2010, 06:09:09 am »
Hi MC72,

what was Umbra B 55 M ?
hi, Hesham
You mean the Breda B 88M, which was a resurrection of the Breda 88; The B.88M was slightly larger and this time was intended as a bomber, but was quickly abandoned.
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Offline Silencer1

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2010, 06:35:25 am »
Hi!

Nice find!

What prefix "R" stands for?
"G" means Gabrielli, so is there another chief designer, responsible for R23 projects?

Cheers!

Offline MC72

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2010, 06:48:26 am »
Sure, it was one of the last known projects by Celestino Rosatelli. I have darwings. Just let me scan them.

Suffix "R" for Rosatelli
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 06:50:40 am by MC72 »
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Offline Apophenia

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2010, 04:17:48 pm »
Suffix "R" for Rosatelli

Hence the occassional use of "CR.23" for Caccia Rosatelli.

BTW, two images on Flickr (San Diego Air and Space Museum Archive) claiming to depict the "Fiat CR-23" are obviously just different angles of the CR-30 (sic, shown in the same collection).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4989967881/
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 06:16:33 pm by Apophenia »

Offline MC72

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2010, 05:51:28 pm »
The plane appears as Fiat CR.23 has a wrighting mistake, because the correct name is Fiat CR.25 a onest plane for liaison and VIP transport.
However, the Fiat R.23 is an attack aircraft with a narrow fuselage for two people.
Represented here with radial engines Fiat A-83 RC24 "Vortice"

Saludos
MC 72
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Offline Apophenia

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2010, 06:18:06 pm »
Nice. Cowlings as per G.57?

Thanks for the CR.25 correction. I forgot that the CR.30 was a biplane leading to the CR.32  :P

Offline Silencer1

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2010, 12:28:41 am »
Hi!

[/quote]
Suffix "R" for Rosatelli
[/quote]

Just forget this designer, as FIAT' chief.
Although - why there is no prefix in aircrat' name - CR is "Cacia Rosatelli", "BR" - "Bombardiere Rosatelli"...

And this - just "R". Is there any other "R" designations?

« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 01:27:04 pm by Silencer1 »

Offline MC72

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2010, 03:23:57 am »
Nice. Cowlings as per G.57?

Thanks for the CR.25 correction. I forgot that the CR.30 was a biplane leading to the CR.32  :P
Yes, Fiat proposed a A.83 "Vortice" for the Fiat G.57, and they studied a cowling for this radial engine.

Saludos
MC72
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 05:10:55 am by MC72 »
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Offline Skybolt

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2010, 06:01:53 am »
Only R because it was a multipurpose design.

Offline Pepe Rezende

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2010, 04:34:24 am »
There's a gap between the CR 42 and the CR 44...

Cheers

Pepe

Offline Silencer1

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2010, 04:53:04 am »
Hi, Skybolt!

Only R because it was a multipurpose design.

Thank you for clarification. By the way, FIAT comapany maintain curious designation system, which incorporate first letter of chief designer's surname into aircraft index. Rare example of designation - I ould only remember something similar for Macchi-Castoldi.


Offline MC72

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2010, 01:39:53 pm »
There's a gap between the CR 42 and the CR 44...

Cheers

Pepe

Must be because sometimes the numbering was assigned according to the engine
and in this case the engine used was the Fiat A.44 RC15/45 of 2400 hp. derived from the older Fiat A.40 RC
(Source: Aerofan Nº100)

Saludos
MC72
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Offline MC72

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2010, 12:59:26 pm »
Specifications Fiat R.23

General characteristics

Crew: 2 or 3
Length: 14,56 m
Wingspan: 18,00 m
Height: 3,90 m
Wing area: 49,00 m² (527.431 ft²)
Empty weight: 6.300 kg
Loaded weight: 2.372 kg
Max takeoff weight: 8.672kg
Powerplant: 2× Fiat radial engine, 1.250 Hp.

Performance
Maximum speed: 560 km/h
Manimum speed: 140 km/h
Range: n/a  km
Service ceiling:  n/a m
Rate of climb: n/a m/s
Wing loading: 117 kg/m²
Mass/power: 3,47 kg/Hp

Armament
Guns: 3 × 12,5 mm Breda Safat with 350 rpg
2 × 20 mm Mauser  cannons with 250 .
Bombs: n/a

Saludos
MC72

« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 04:31:38 pm by MC72 »
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Offline redstar72

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2010, 07:45:18 am »
FIAT comapany maintain curious designation system, which incorporate first letter of chief designer's surname into aircraft index. Rare example of designation - I ould only remember something similar for Macchi-Castoldi.

Actually typical system for Italian aircraft: CANT Z (Z for Zappata), Breda-Zappata (BZ), Savoia-Marchetti (SM) and then Savoia-Frati (SF)...
Best regards,
Alexander

Offline airman

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2010, 12:02:05 pm »
Specifications Fiat R.23

General characteristics

Crew: 2
Length: 14,56 m
Wingspan: 18,00 m
Height: 3,90 m
Wing area: 49,00 m² (527.431 ft²)
Empty weight: 6.300 kg
Loaded weight: 2.372 kg
Max takeoff weight: 8.672kg
Powerplant: 2× Fiat radial engine, 1.250 Hp.

Performance
Maximum speed: 560 km/h
Manimum speed: 140 km/h
Range: n/a  km
Service ceiling:  n/a m
Rate of climb: n/a m/s
Wing loading: 117 kg/m²
Mass/power: 3,47 kg/Hp

Armament
Guns: 3 × 12,5 mm Breda Safat with 350 rpg
2 × 20 mm Mauser  cannons with 250 .
Bombs: n/a

Saludos
MC72


Thanks MC72 !  :o
But Fiat of 1250 Hp are awesome of Fiat Br20bis or are a DB licenced ! ???
Because i could think that Fiat R.23 was a development of Fiat CR.25  ! :)
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 12:06:20 pm by airman »
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Offline Arjen

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2010, 01:24:12 pm »
Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War II, 1989 mentions a Fiat A.82 R.C.40 radial engine of 1250 hp. and a Fiat A.82 R.C.42 of 1400 hp.

Offline MC72

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2010, 04:06:09 pm »
Thanks MC72 !  :o
But Fiat of 1250 Hp are awesome of Fiat Br20bis or are a DB licenced ! ???
Because i could think that Fiat R.23 was a development of Fiat CR.25  ! :)
Quote
Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War II, 1989 mentions a Fiat A.82 R.C.40 radial engine of 1250 hp. and a Fiat A.82 R.C.42 of 1400 hp.

I'm not sure if the Cr.25 Fiat has been the basis for the development of the Fiat R.23, there are some dimensional and weight differences, which suggest a new development.

Fiat  BR.20 M later effectively was develop in a new variant called BR.20bis with engines two Fiat A.82 RC.32 of 1250 hp Each...... I found a photo of BR.20bis (Source: Profile 110) and watching the new power plant in this release, suggest A close relationship between the A.82 and A.83, externally are similar with they cowlings in addition to its power.

It's a curious coincidence in two Rosatelli projects; Could be the same engine (A.82 and A.83)? extrapolate this solution used in the BR.20bis drive to a new and more aerodynamic cells may well be a logical path followed by the office of Rosatelli for the R.23.

Saludos
MC72
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 05:36:41 pm by MC72 »
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Offline airman

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2010, 06:13:25 am »
Thanks MC72 !  :)
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Offline Skybolt

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2010, 07:12:16 am »
Quote
Must be because sometimes the numbering was assigned according to the engine
and in this case the engine used was the Fiat A.44 RC15/45 of 2400 hp. derived from the older Fiat A.40 RC
Ok, folks, I'd ought to do this since some time now: as the author of the Aerofan artilcle on CR-44, I have to correct the matters here. The following infos emerged from a visit in the Aeronautica archives in Rome just weeks after the Aerofan article was published, so forgive.  The Fiat A.44 and the FIAT A.40 aren't related, i.e. the former isn't an evolution of the latter... The A.44 was a derivative of the A.38 by Ing. Fessia (Chief of the Engine Development Office chez FIAT). After the failure of the A.38 as THE 1000 HP liquid-cooled engine, Fessia had the idea of using the 8-cylinders bank of the A.38 to produce an H engine (four banks for a total of 32 cylinders). Initially the desgn was called A.42, then renamed A.44. The A.40 was developed as an alternative to the A.42 (A.44), FIAT was committed to bag this one, and was an X-engine  with 24 cylinders. The designer was Ing. Dante Giacosa, that after the war succeeded Fessia and went on to become the principal designer for FIAT cars. It was rated on paper at 1900 HPs. The only two known and confirmed projects intended to be powered by the A.44 are the CR.44 and the BR.44, a light bomber, both from mid-1941. No design is known to be powered by the A.40. Both the A.40 and the A.42(44) were started in late 1940, after the debacle of the A.38, and both were intended as successors to the DB.601-605. More on this in ISP.... including drawings.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 08:48:48 am by Skybolt »

Offline Arjen

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2010, 07:50:36 am »
This is from Herschel Smith's "A History of Aircraft Piston Engines", Sunflower University Press, 1981.
Quote
After the war, Italy experienced a resurgence of national vigor that, at times, took some improbable directions. One of these was Fiat's development of its A-38 R/C 15-45, an inverted V-16 of 2117 cu in. (34.7 L). It probably never flew. It gave to Italy the strange distinction of being the last to build both a separate-cylinder and a castblock liquid-cooled engine.

According to the same book, Fiat's A 42 R/C 42 was a 1250 hp, two-row, 18-cylinder engine with cylinders as used in Fiat's two-row, 14-cylinder A 80, but with more cooling fin area.

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2010, 09:25:54 am »
Wrong.... the A.42 was the original designation of the A.44. And the A.38 is hardly post-war, the original project is from 1937. Both the A.40 and the A.44 were still fully funded at the end of 1942, last time we have the complete funding status for experimental engine types. BTW, the A.44 was a real monster, weighting one ton and a half. After the war, FIAT completely exited the piston engine market, except for maintenance and completing some RA 1050 (DB.605).

Offline Arjen

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2010, 10:54:52 am »
It is just the one source that claims anything like it on the A.38, so I am none too sure about it myself; it may have been a typo. I do not like to dismiss the idea of Fiat working on a V-16 in the early post-war years completely. Mr Smith's book seems fairly accurate on most data I *am* able to verify on other engines, and other companies like Bristol, Pratt & Whitney and Wright put considerable effort into piston engines post-war. Mr Smith's claim that Fiat was involved in piston engines in the post-war years did strike me as extraordinary. So I thought to mention it on this forum.

As happens quite often since I have discovered this forum, I am confronted with hardware that is completely new to me - which pleases me very much.

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2010, 11:56:09 am »
Quote
which pleases me very much
Well, you are very welcome...  ;)

Offline Arjen

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2010, 12:30:11 pm »
So how's the Italian Secret Projects book getting on? Can't wait...

Offline MC72

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2011, 04:19:20 pm »
......................................................and was an X-engine  with 24 cylinders. The designer was Ing. Dante Giacosa, that after the war succeeded Fessia and went on to become the principal designer for FIAT cars. It was rated on paper at 1900 HPs. The only two known and confirmed projects intended to be powered by the A.44 are the CR.44 and the BR.44, a light bomber, both from mid-1941. ................................

When I read "Br.44", I said ¡Wow!! a new unknown plane in town!!!, but research to date the only model that responds to the symbol BR.44, is the model built "under license" by Breda the DeHavilland Rapid dragon type, named by Breda precisely Br.44; unless...... maybe there is a subsequent project sharing the same denomination???

« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 04:22:29 pm by MC72 »
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Offline Skybolt

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2011, 03:02:32 am »
BR-44 stands for Bombardiere Rosatelli-44 (-44 since it was to be powered by A-44s). I discovered it in the few surviving files in the Archivio Storico FIAT a few years back. Breda aircrafts normally sported the Be-XX designation (changed to BZ when  Zappata went to work with them in 1942, and then to BP, Breda Pittoni, for the few known design by Ing. Pittoni, and the BP-471, naturally).
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 03:18:14 am by Skybolt »

Offline redstar72

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2011, 02:00:10 pm »
Breda aircrafts normally sported the Be-XX designation

Probably you have a misprint? "Be" was designation of Czech company Beneš-Mráz (and, of course, Russian Beriev); Breda designation was "Ba".
Best regards,
Alexander

Offline Nico

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2011, 12:35:55 am »
The Breda acronym is a debated question: apparently, Breda documents and the aircraft sported only logos as BREDA 64, BREDA 65 and so on and the monogram Ba, Ba., BA or BA. seems applied only by Regia Aeronautica and Ministero dell'Aeronautica.
An intreresting matter also for the Designation topic...
...and a very happy New Year
Nico S.

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2011, 04:01:00 am »
Yep, misprint... Happy New Year, Nico et all.

Offline lucamax

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2012, 07:01:52 am »
Hi friends!


I found this 3-view of the Fiat R-23. The original pic is very little so I tried to retouch it a few. However I'm sorry for the not best quality!

Offline blackkite

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