Horten Ho 229 Documentary - "Hitler's Stealth Fighter"

[Stuka]

National Geographic is filming a documentary about the Horten brothers.  Air date not yet released.

http://www.ipf.ca/IPF/releases/CAF-April-2008.pdf

Hitler’s Stealth Bomber (Myth Merchant Films, Calgary) It’s widely acknowledged that Germany won the
‘aviation technology’ battle in WW2, but could the German “bat-winged” stealth aircraft have eluded Allied
radar and changed the course of the war? Now, more than sixty years after the Horten flying wings first took
to the air, these revolutionary aircraft will be put to the test. Using the surviving HO 229 confiscated by the
Allies and stored by the Smithsonian Institute, the team will recreate both the fighter jet and the massive HO
18 bomber. (Broadcaster: History Canada, National Geographic US)

http://ho229-cockpit.blogspot.com/




http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269020&page=3

I recently finished work on a Ho 229 in 1/8 scale, this design is kitted. While working on the Ho 229, I was approached by a filmmaker working on a documentary on the Ho 229 for National Geographic. He wants to include some time on the Ho 18, including a dramatization of the meeting between the Horten brothers and Goering where they pitched the Ho 18 to him. He wants a model of the Ho 18 to use as a prop for that scene, and he's asked me to build it. I'm already doing finish work on a static Ho 229 also for use as a prop for the film.

Arthur Bentley has been commissioned to do a new set of drawings of the Ho XVIII based on all available original info (sketchy) and a little bit of projection.

I'm having crazy thoughts about building a flying version, someone please stop me :-)

Gary

http://www.wingsontheweb.com
gary.hethcoat@gmail.com

[Jemiba]

"It’s widely acknowledged that Germany won the ‘aviation technology’ battle in WW2"

If that's the motto of the whole film, I rather believe in Father Christmas,
ho, ho, ho !   

But I know, it will be a bestseller and there will be many fans, who can't
wait to buy it on DVD, as another evidence for this statement ....   

[KJ_Lesnick]

That Horten 18 is absolutely breathtaking.

[Stuka]

Air date second or third quarter 2009.

http://www.is.northropgrumman.com/media/integrator_assets/Integrator_2008/I_Dec15.pdf

More than a dozen employees showed up at El Segundo’s
Radar Cross Section model shop on a recent Saturday
morning to volunteer their services in the construction of
a full-scale wooden model of a 64-year-old German flying
wing.
Northrop Grumman is participating in a TV documentary
for the National Geographic Channel that will feature the
sector’s expertise in stealth technology and rapid proto-
typing. Northrop Grumman’s role is to build a 55-foot-
wingspan model of the Horten 229 fighter and measure its
radar signature.
The Ho 229, which resembled some of Jack Northrop’s
flying wings, was designed in the early 1940s by the
Horten brothers, two German aviation enthusiasts whose
ideas caught the attention of Germany’s Third Reich.
However, for a variety of reasons the Ho 229 was never
produced.
Had Germany been able to field this jet-powered fly-
ing wing before the end of World War II, how would it
have performed against Allied aircraft? Did the Germans
incorporate rudimentary low-observable elements into the
Ho 229? Could it have eluded British radar long enough
to make Germany’s London bombing campaign succeed?
These are some of the tantalizing questions the documen-
tary will try to answer.
However, the real stars of this show will be the people of
Northrop Grumman. Most of the time, details of their work
are closely held inside the company, but this is an oppor-
tunity to show the world how Northrop Grumman people
excel at what they do.
The employees who volunteered
at the model shop were put to
work measuring and marking lines on the
model that indicate flight-control surfaces
and the leading edge. Their efforts saved
hours of extra work by the regular
members of the RCS model shop
team.
The documentary is
expected to air in the
second or third
quarter of
2009.
Jim Hart

[Johnbr]

Yes To Cool.

[thehortenlead]

  Hello all,
 Im new to this site. My name is Tim. I have been very busy building a full scale Horten as lead on the Project. It is a RCS Model as well as a Display model. Simply beautiful, and the best project I have worked on since I started doing this 28 years ago. The Documentary will be out sometime this fall on National Geographic channel. The story will be about the build, the test, the test results and recreated scenes of ww2. I cant wait !
  If anyone has any interest I would be honered to answer questions... Have a blessed day!

                     Tim

ps photos will follow soon....

[Orionblamblam]

This one?


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5851.0/highlight,229.html

[thehortenlead]

Gary,

Cool to see that you put your cockpit out there. The model test was simply outstanding ! Im ready for the last filming site.... Maybe see you there. Im glad to see all the interest in my model. Hee  Hee......

Tim FYI "thehortenlead"

[avatar]

jemiba,


The germans may have indeed been ahead in certain design areas . but they were behind in  certain areas of manufacturing technology. Plus they had resource constraints , which is why they could not scale up their wunderbar weapon production.


 As we all know wars are not won by exotic designs that can be deployed only in a piecemeal fashion. simpler proven weapons deployed in large numbers ( make that very large)  rather than complex untested designs win wars.


So Nazi Germany took the science forward , whereas the allies happily built up the numbers and also focused heavily on electronics which has a smaller deployment cycle even if exotic for the time. net result the allies won the war only to get hold of the various breakthroughs painstakingly made by Germany during the second war with the R&D investment already having been sunk. to cap it all they got a  lot of the brains behind these projects too .


The allies could have developed the technologies that the Nazis deployed, however they chose  to do so later than the nazis did . Instead they focused their resources on winning the war with what was immediately doable.



Today's America runs the risk of doing a  WW2 Germany on itself.

[Stuka]

A little about the Hortens and RCS from "Horten Ho 229:  Spirit of Thuringia"

     In the late 1970s and early 1980s, information began to appear in the mass-media regarding the development in the United States of technologies for a 'low observable' combat aircraft, better known as 'Stealth' technology.  Research was being conducted to find materials and configurations with which to reduce the radar and infra-red visibility of the aircraft.  The flying wing layout was found to have the smallest possible vertical plane areas and hence the least radar-reflecting surface, while its simple shape precluded the deflection of the incoming electromagnetic waves in the direction of the signal source, i.e. the searching radar.
     Originating from this research the 'Stealth' warplanes such as the Northrop B-2A and the projected McDonnell Douglas A-12 appeared to have design features strikingly reminiscent of the Horten 229.  No wonder that the astounding idea of 'Nazi Stealth' arose and became almost universally accepted by the media.  Could it be true that the technology which we consider to be one of the latest developments in aerial warfare has, in fact, its roots in the Third Reich?  Let us look again at the time of the  H IX inception.
     Evidently the problem of avoiding radar detection came into being the moment the first operational radar was fielded.  Already during the Battle of Britain radar had greatly enhanced the effectiveness of the British air defence.  As early as April 1942 the RLM's Director of Air Armament, Erhard Milch, offered a prize for finding a way of deceiving enemy radar.  While airborne electronic warfare was in the event pioneered by the British 'Window' passive jamming, it was the German Navy which introduced the means of permanent radar-protection of moving vehicles.  By 1944 the Kriegsmarine had developed and tested radar-absorbing materials which were applied to the parts of submarines exposed above the water in order to prevent their detection by ASV radar, which was a naval version of the H2S airborne radar.  The simplest material was a carbon-impregnated rubber coating, named 'Schornsteinfeger' ('chimney sweeper'), an allusion to the substance used.
     Although the Ho 229 has been immediately identified as "stealthy" due to the characteristics of its overall configuration, neither of the Horten brothers ever claimed their aircraft had been designed with consideration to the way it deflects radar waves.  In fact, the unique shape of the Ho 229 has evolved from the ten-year long aerodynamic research by the Hortens.  What Reimar did claim as far back as 1950, was that the wooden construction of the Ho 229 would reflect very little of the incoming electromagnetic waves, thus making the aircraft "...barely visible on the radar."
     Here it should be noted that despite a widespread belief, the wooden construction of an aircraft does not necessarily reduce its radar visibility.  Known is the fact that the all-wooden de Havilland Mosquito was in no way 'invisible.'  It is true that wood is a predominantly radio-transparent material, reflecting and dissipating only a small fraction of radiation.  But, with the skin transparent to the radar rays, the inner structures such as the engines or the tubular frame of the Ho 229 would reflect the incoming radiation none the less.
     It appears that the radar-absorbing properties of carbon had not been known to Reimar before the late 1970s, when materials working on similar principles were created in the USA.  Perhaps this new information led Reimar to assert his "visionary" manner that the charcoal present inside the Formholz skin of the Ho 229 "...would diffuse radar beams, and make the aircraft 'invisible' to radar."  Although the charcoal, being a form of carbon, could in fact dissipate electromagnetic emissions in a limited range of wavelengths, this substance had actually been utilised as a porous filler to lighten the composite formed parts.  Another variation of the carbon theme by Reimar dealt with a mix of coal dust and glue that "...camouflaged 90% of the radar cross-section of the Ho 229" and had to be applied also to the H XVIII.
     While no wartime document is known to confirm any 'stealth' activities within the Luftwaffe, the Horten 229 can in any event be considered a precursor to the latest flying wing, the blended-wing-body and related devlopments, both military and civil - stealth or not.  Thus seventy years on, the Hortens' vision is still at the forefront aeronautical progress.

[thehortenlead]

  Latest news,
 The recreated Seens came out so well. Mike Jorgenson is a master Director. This film will be speculator. I have been involved since the beginning and wish I could share the details with all but you will all have to wait. My lips are still sealed.....

            TK

[red admiral]

If anyone is interested I have a report (or may just be a summary) from 1942 regarding British experiments to reduce radar returns. Its deals mainly with the theory but gives possible applications. I seem to remember that part of it says that the method would only work against the more directional centimetric radars and would provide little benefit against decimetric and metric radars.

[Orionblamblam]

Some interesting comments from rec.aviation.military by someoen who works at SDAM (where the mockup went after testing):

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.military/browse_thread/thread/4bb88325b530a98d?hl=en#

I think the show
was patently ludicrous for more reasons than I care to type.  But,
lets cover the first thirty seconds of the show, shall we?

First scene - American troops rumble through a forest toward the
mystical Stealth monster's lair.   FACT: the aircraft was found at the
Gotha Waffenfabrik, a large industrial complex.

The American troops find a BARN in the middle of the woods -  FACT:
the incomplete Ho 229 V-3 was found in a hangar.

As the doors open, the surprised American troops discover the
completed aircraft.  FACT:  it was only the center section, not
complete as shown in the TV show.  The wings at the Smithsonian right
now, displayed with the center section, has not even been proven to
FIT the center section - and were found many miles away at a different
facility.  Folks at the NASM decided instead of trying to fit the
three pieces together, they'd build a box for the wings and display
them alongside the center section.  If they fit, they'd have
reassembled them prior to displaying the aircraft.  That's what they
do, if they have all the right parts.  That is what they are going to
ultimately do with their 219, and what they do with everything else
they have.  The Horten is an anomaly, due to its questionable
connection to the wings.

Guys, these three errors occurred within -thirty seconds- of the start
of the show.  From there, the accuracy of the show went down
markedly.  That you were fooled is not surprising, as the producers
went out of their way to mislead the audience into thinking the Nazis
were actively and purposefully building a "Stealth fighter" in 1944.

Other canards:  A 1v1 between the test aircraft and an Me 262, which
it supposedly won handlily?  IT IS TO LAUGH.  Quick question, did the
US (or anyone else) ever have a radical and unproven prototype
aircraft that was flown successfully once, and on its second flight it
was sent up to spar with an operational jet fighter?  If you know of
any, please include a cite.  What we KNOW from the historical record
and original source documents is that the second prototype crashed and
killed the pilot on it's second flight due to controllability issues.
Sure you want to dogfight in it before you even know how to fly it?
The show's producers made this ridiculous claim without a single sheet
of German wartime paper to back it up.  No pilots named OF COURSE; no
logbook entries or other shred of proof.  On the interwebs, we respond
to things like this with "Cool story, bro!"

Another one that made me want to spit was the complete fabrication
that Goering had _any_ input in its design.  Other than his edict that
all new designs had to be capable of 3x1000, he played no role of any
kind.  Yet, the show has him pacing his office, apparently deep in
contemplation on how to get the plywood and soft metal 540 mph
aircraft into production as the show weaves him into their inflated
BS.  I kept waiting for the 'proof' that the Horten led to crop
circles and cow mutilations.

One of many things that I questioned was the repeated use of the radar-reflective paint. Much was made of the fact that it was silver-based, provided the same conductivity as metal structures... and cost $2500/gallon. Wouldn't aluminum foil have been cheaper?

[shockonlip]

OK, thanks for the info.

I still intend to watch.

OK - so the historical setting is suspect, BUT!
IF they had constructed such a thing - be it by accident or not -
what was its performance in the stealth arena. That is what I want
to know. That is still useful. This is where ideas, taken a little farther,
become very different things. I am interested in such modes of thought.

And I'm sure it will be fun to watch at least.

This thread is entitled "upcoming Horten Brothers Documentary" but I see
no info on when the program is scheduled. Evidently it already has aired
at least once, and nobody sounded the alarm.

Next shot is Sunday July 5 at 11am (I'd check my time zone and local listing) - ie: THIS WEEKEND !!
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/hitler-s-stealth-fighter-3942/Overview

Over !

[Orionblamblam]

IF they had constructed such a thing - be it by accident or not -
what was its performance in the stealth arena. That is what I want
to know. That is still useful.

Hard numbers, sadly, were not given. The closest they came was to say that the detection range of the Ho 229 was "20% less" than the detection range of other contemproary aircraft... which aircraft (He 111's? Me 109s? M2 262s? Do 217s? He 177s? Mitsubishi Zeros? P-51s? B-24s?) they did not say.

And I'm sure it will be fun to watch at least.

Actually, I found it to be a little... dull. Mostly it's guys in the Northrop model shop building a plywood mockup.

This thread is entitled "upcoming Horten Brothers Documentary" but I see
no info on when the program is scheduled.

Last Sunday.