Horten Ho 229 Documentary - "Hitler's Stealth Fighter"

[pometablava]

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/hitler-s-stealth-fighter-3942/Overview55#tab-Overview

I've been taking a look there and I found a very poor work. It seems someone found at National Geographic it was a good idea to mix the Horten Brothers work with the Stealth technology to get higher audiences.

In my opinion it has no interest for a serious aerospace enthusiast. I agree with Jemiba about all that stuff on Nazi marvel tech. It seems they invented everything...

[gery]

....NASM and northtrop grumman can't compromise there "image" just for a "fake scoop" wanted by Nat geo....
the "mock up" and work before the model is very long and expensive....it's the crisis or not..
if an "aerospace enthusiast" is serious, he know that the "stealth technology" is now a "song for children"....

[pometablava]

NASM and northtrop grumman can't compromise there "image" just for a "fake scoop"

That's true Gery. I think is NG people which has built a poor and speculative product from all that effort. There are continuous examples of popular tech and science products that take serious info as a basis for their products. But the info arriving to the public has been manipulated to better catch audience.

[gery]

do you think it's a brain washing...or hoax ....just for money???

[pometablava]

No, I think it's not an hoax. I'm not seeing in that sense.
Just a commercial TV product. It's a good show but not a serious but boring academic conference. That's NG target.
In that sense I think is comparable to that BBC shows on prehistoric animals. They pay scientists to research for the most giant predators and then they recostruct it in a TV show adding 2-3 meters more in lenght and to their TV model.

Please excuse me if I can't explain it better.

[gery]

it's ok....
Do you think that "germans project" are interesting for many people "today and around the world"..??

[pometablava]

Yes Gery,

German Nazi wunderwaffen or giant prehistoric predators are really atractive topics for TV shows or books. In fact I have a lot of info on both topics. But some authors (even those with pretige) fall in the temptation to take think a bit further to get better audience.

[war birds]

sorry to burst you bubble but you need to read a book called "nurflugel" written by Peter F. Selinger and Walter Horten,pages 134 to 149, in it it talks about the fact that V-3 was intact and nearly completed at the Gotha plant on April 14th 1945. and that V-4,5 and 6 were in various stages of completion, and that the Ninth U.S. Armored Division found the HIX V-1 in good condition near Leipzig,
as to how many flights the V-2 did take, per Walter Horten (page 134) he states that Lt. Erwin Ziller made the first flight about December 18th, 1944, but his log book indicates that the first flight occurred on February 2nd, 1945. and that Walter Horten states I am quit sure that first flight of the HIX was also his first in a jet. it appears that the H X V-2 had flown three or four times before tragedy struck on February 18th. the weather was overcast, the ground soft and muddy. The visibility marginal for a test flight, as Lt Ziller took off, retracted the gear and disappeared. we received a report to Oranienburg. due to the low ceiling, a shallow approach to the airport was initiated, Since the hydraulic pump was on the dead engine, gear and flaps were extended by the emergency compressed air system. once down they could not be retracted, to maintain his glide slope Lt Ziller added power to overcome the extra drag, found to his horror that he could no longer maintain directional control: the fully deployed drag rudder unable to overcome the asymmetrically  thrust . rather than lose control, he retarded the throttle to land short of the runway. the aircraft touched down in a field, slid into an embankment and flipped over crushing its pilot.

based on this your "assumption" that it had crashed on the 2nd flight is thus incorrect, it was the 3rd or 4th flight based on the book. but i do agree with you that it most likely never did fly against a ME-262, as 2 or 3 flights would not have been enough to gather the data to show the airplanes abilities.

As to has if V-3 ever had the body assembled to the wings. If you go to pages 140 to 141 you would be able to see that Hortens method of construction was to work all 3 sections as a one large assembly during construction, as the skins of the center section on V-2 were not in place till after the wings were installed, (page 141) and we all have seen that the V-3 has its skins installed at NASM. so based on that i beleve that the wings were attached to the body during construction at Gotha.
as to why the airplane was in the 3 peaces, I have not found any thing in writting for this condition but feel that it might have been taken appart for prep for transport to the Oranienburg location for finally assembly and flight testing.

as to its construction. things that needs to be brought out from Hortens book...

1) the wing itself was a wet wing. with no bladders,  (page 134) the interior of the wing would be coated with fuel proof glue,

2) the skin was to be 2 sheets of plywood, 1.5 mm thick each with a 12mm layer of sawdust, charcoal and glue mix sandwiched between, the charcoal in this was to diffuse radar beams, and make the aircraft "invisible" on radar,) note: this came from the idea of the periscopes on the U boats that had a charcoal coating on them to make it harder to locate with radar due to no return of the radar, and I think that this might make the Ho-229 the first airplane to be planed to be stealth to radar from its planning) I'm not sure that the TV program ever really tried to test this issue.


as to the role of Goering, well we need to understand that the Hortens were not understood in germany by the RLM, and funds for their projects were not easy to get, the hortens lacked a production facility.

here is a quote from a book "JET PLANES OF THE THIRD REICH" page 209...during November 1941 Galland left the famous fighter wing, JG 26, to take hover from Molders as general of the fighter's.shortly after consolidating his new command Galland asked that the technical officer of JG 26, BLT. Walter Horten, be transferred to his staff. with his elder brother, Reimar, had been working for about ten years on the development of all wing aircraft, building several successful gliders to test his theories. Now, having the opportunity to comverse with some of the Luftwaffe's leading generals an opportunity further helped by the fact that he was married to Udet's secretary) Horten managed to elicit verbal agreement from Goring for him and his brother to set up a special group (sonderkommando 9) at Gothingen to build more advanced all-wing aircraft. of these, the most important was the Ho IX fighter of which two prototypes were to be completed, one as a glider, the other with twin turbojets.
after discovering the existence of the construction group early in 1944, RLM officials ordered all further work to be stopped as they had not been consulted. The Horten brothers immediately sought a further interview with Goring who quickly gave them authorization to continue their work. this showed that Goring and Galland did have a direct involvement with some part of the program. but not at all like the show tried to protray it. (here they goofed badly)

as a side note: if any one looks for information they can find it as not only a Ho 229 but also a Go 229. this is because during the army's investigation of the airplane they assumed that the airplane were a Gotha project due to being on Gotha facilities. I have read the documents of the armys research into how they located the program. (my coppies of the documents I have given to the museum of flight in Seattle if you want to see them)


also in your information you presented you eluded to 2 locations for the airplanes. in the book "JET PLANES OF THE THIRD REICH" on page 209 it states that the airfield at Oranienburg being used for tests as that at Gottingen was too small, that's how the airplanes ended up at 2 locations. also on page 211 it shows that V-1 was all there when the army got there, as to how many airframes were built, there was up to line 7 in production, and  that 7 might have been a 2 seater.

by someoen who  
Some interesting comments from rec.aviation.military works at SDAM (where the mockup went after testing):

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.military/browse_thread/thread/4bb88325b530a98d?hl=en#

I think the show
was patently ludicrous for more reasons than I care to type.  But,
lets cover the first thirty seconds of the show, shall we?

First scene - American troops rumble through a forest toward the
mystical Stealth monster's lair.   FACT: the aircraft was found at the
Gotha Waffenfabrik, a large industrial complex.

The American troops find a BARN in the middle of the woods -  FACT:
the incomplete Ho 229 V-3 was found in a hangar.

As the doors open, the surprised American troops discover the
completed aircraft.  FACT:  it was only the center section, not
complete as shown in the TV show.  The wings at the Smithsonian right
now, displayed with the center section, has not even been proven to
FIT the center section - and were found many miles away at a different
facility.  Folks at the NASM decided instead of trying to fit the
three pieces together, they'd build a box for the wings and display
them alongside the center section.  If they fit, they'd have
reassembled them prior to displaying the aircraft.  That's what they
do, if they have all the right parts.  That is what they are going to
ultimately do with their 219, and what they do with everything else
they have.  The Horten is an anomaly, due to its questionable
connection to the wings.

Guys, these three errors occurred within -thirty seconds- of the start
of the show.  From there, the accuracy of the show went down
markedly.  That you were fooled is not surprising, as the producers
went out of their way to mislead the audience into thinking the Nazis
were actively and purposefully building a "Stealth fighter" in 1944.

Other canards:  A 1v1 between the test aircraft and an Me 262, which
it supposedly won handlily?  IT IS TO LAUGH.  Quick question, did the
US (or anyone else) ever have a radical and unproven prototype
aircraft that was flown successfully once, and on its second flight it
was sent up to spar with an operational jet fighter?  If you know of
any, please include a cite.  What we KNOW from the historical record
and original source documents is that the second prototype crashed and
killed the pilot on it's second flight due to controllability issues.
Sure you want to dogfight in it before you even know how to fly it?
The show's producers made this ridiculous claim without a single sheet
of German wartime paper to back it up.  No pilots named OF COURSE; no
logbook entries or other shred of proof.  On the interwebs, we respond
to things like this with "Cool story, bro!"

Another one that made me want to spit was the complete fabrication
that Goering had _any_ input in its design.  Other than his edict that
all new designs had to be capable of 3x1000, he played no role of any
kind.  Yet, the show has him pacing his office, apparently deep in
contemplation on how to get the plywood and soft metal 540 mph
aircraft into production as the show weaves him into their inflated
BS.  I kept waiting for the 'proof' that the Horten led to crop
circles and cow mutilations.

One of many things that I questioned was the repeated use of the radar-reflective paint. Much was made of the fact that it was silver-based, provided the same conductivity as metal structures... and cost $2500/gallon. Wouldn't aluminum foil have been cheaper?

Some interesting comments from rec.aviation.military by someoen who works at SDAM (where the mockup went after testing):

The wings at the Smithsonian right
now, displayed with the center section, has not even been proven to
FIT the center section - and were found many miles away at a different
facility.  Folks at the NASM decided instead of trying to fit the
three pieces together, they'd build a box for the wings and display
them alongside the center section.  If they fit, they'd have
reassembled them prior to displaying the aircraft.

Maybe someone should send him this photo.

What we KNOW from the historical record
and original source documents is that the second prototype crashed and
killed the pilot on it's second flight due to controllability issues.

The crash was the result of controllability issues encountered during an engine failure.  The pilot was able to trim the airplane with one engine out.  During the landing approach, the pilot ran out of yaw authority and crashed short of the runway.

Much was made of the fact that it was silver-based, provided the same conductivity as metal structures... and cost $2500/gallon.

 I didn't get to see the show yet but I doubt they actually used stuff that costs that much unless they had some sitting on the shelf about to go bad.  The stuff usually used on pole models, at least in my experience, is considerably cheaper.

Wouldn't aluminum foil have been cheaper?

 It would be cheaper but a lot bumpier...  I think I saw some aluminum foil behind the fake compressor blades.

[war birds]

Some interesting comments from rec.aviation.military by someoen who works at SDAM (where the mockup went after testing):

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.military/browse_thread/thread/4bb88325b530a98d?hl=en#

I think the show
was patently ludicrous for more reasons than I care to type.  But,
lets cover the first thirty seconds of the show, shall we?

First scene - American troops rumble through a forest toward the
mystical Stealth monster's lair.   FACT: the aircraft was found at the
Gotha Waffenfabrik, a large industrial complex.

The American troops find a BARN in the middle of the woods -  FACT:
the incomplete Ho 229 V-3 was found in a hangar.

As the doors open, the surprised American troops discover the
completed aircraft.  FACT:  it was only the center section, not
complete as shown in the TV show.  The wings at the Smithsonian right
now, displayed with the center section, has not even been proven to
FIT the center section - and were found many miles away at a different
facility.  Folks at the NASM decided instead of trying to fit the
three pieces together, they'd build a box for the wings and display
them alongside the center section.  If they fit, they'd have
reassembled them prior to displaying the aircraft.  That's what they
do, if they have all the right parts.  That is what they are going to
ultimately do with their 219, and what they do with everything else
they have.  The Horten is an anomaly, due to its questionable
connection to the wings.

Guys, these three errors occurred within -thirty seconds- of the start
of the show.  From there, the accuracy of the show went down
markedly.  That you were fooled is not surprising, as the producers
went out of their way to mislead the audience into thinking the Nazis
were actively and purposefully building a "Stealth fighter" in 1944.

Other canards:  A 1v1 between the test aircraft and an Me 262, which
it supposedly won handlily?  IT IS TO LAUGH.  Quick question, did the
US (or anyone else) ever have a radical and unproven prototype
aircraft that was flown successfully once, and on its second flight it
was sent up to spar with an operational jet fighter?  If you know of
any, please include a cite.  What we KNOW from the historical record
and original source documents is that the second prototype crashed and
killed the pilot on it's second flight due to controllability issues.
Sure you want to dogfight in it before you even know how to fly it?
The show's producers made this ridiculous claim without a single sheet
of German wartime paper to back it up.  No pilots named OF COURSE; no
logbook entries or other shred of proof.  On the interwebs, we respond
to things like this with "Cool story, bro!"

Another one that made me want to spit was the complete fabrication
that Goering had _any_ input in its design.  Other than his edict that
all new designs had to be capable of 3x1000, he played no role of any
kind.  Yet, the show has him pacing his office, apparently deep in
contemplation on how to get the plywood and soft metal 540 mph
aircraft into production as the show weaves him into their inflated
BS.  I kept waiting for the 'proof' that the Horten led to crop
circles and cow mutilations.

One of many things that I questioned was the repeated use of the radar-reflective paint. Much was made of the fact that it was silver-based, provided the same conductivity as metal structures... and cost $2500/gallon. Wouldn't aluminum foil have been cheaper?

[gery]

ok for nat geo,
But why "northrop grumman" make test in 2009 on Ho 229 with the "nasm" collaboration on Area 51

[Jemiba]

Antonio has given a good explanation, I think.

The Horten brothers began development of their flying
wings at the beginning of the thirties and they proceeded
with this principle because they had faith in the aerodynamical
avantages. If the Ho 229 had a lower radar signature, that
was an additional, but more or less accidental advantage.

There certainly are other objects for testing, not just stealth,
but windtunnel testing to determine the flying characteristics
of one of those fancy designs. I'm sure, in many cases the result
would be, that it wouldn't have been flyable at all ! But such a
result wouldn't make for an interesting evening in front of your
TV-set. "Hitler's secret aircraft, that would never have left
the ground !" probably is a non-starter ...

What's a combination of sex, drugs and celebrities for the press
with those big letters, that's a "secret german Wunderwaffe" for the
more dubious part of the aviation press.

Changing history ? No, that's really nothing, I've the slightest interest in !
But as I pointed out in several other similar threads, I think, there are others,
who regard such "evidence" as "proof", that in a certain way germany hadn't
lost the war, or or at least wasn't defeated the way it was in reality. I don't
want to blame those, who built this model, they got an order, which was fulfilled,
no more and no less. I not even want to blame National Geographic, they simply
need TV viewers, so they gave them, what they wanted. And, if you look through
catalogues of some publishers, you'll see : They want a lot !
It's a good business and the believers pay a lot of money for "sensational discoveries".
But we should be more careful, especially as fakes and exagerations, or simply bad
research could discredit the great work, that was done by several members of this
forum, like Justo Miranda or Flitzer,too ! Would really be a pity, if one day everybody,
who'sworking in this field is measured with the same yardstick !   

[gery]

i think test has been made by northrop long time ago....

http://www.youtube.com/user/EquationModels#play/all/uploads-all/0/JBnBSJ9bz3A

gery

[shockonlip]

Not wanting to tick anyone off here, but I HAVE to post this.

I AM a SERIOUS aircraft nut!

I watched it last night in HD and 720p for the first time.

I really enjoyed:
1. How Northrop Grumman  built the model - learning about the rotator - for example, and other stuff.
2. Being in the El Segundo model shop - never been there even if it was a TV presence. WOW - neat!
3. These guys are great fabricators - they're FAST, CREATIVE.
4. Being with the LO engineers as they went to NASM storage to measure the real Ho 229. Neat!
5. Seeing the cool graphics of the A/C back in the 1940's and of the model when it was done - neat photo angles !!
6. Hearing the fabricators/LO engineers talk about all the classified A/C work !! - Man what a cool place to work!!
   Bummed when I heard they destroy the models they test. I guess this is necessary though.
7. Seeing John Cashen and Irv Waaland come see the model.
8. Getting a chance to go out to Tejon (again TV presence, but heck, beggars can't be choosers)
9. Seeing how they do the setup in daylight vs night, when I think they normally work out there.
10. Seeing the hot spots light up on the model (The LO engineers knew what was going to happen).
11. Getting the results of the Computational Electromagnetics (CEM) tools after the Ho 229 model measurements at Tejon.
12. Amuzed at coming up with a result that sounded good.

I think John Cashen's comment summed up the real show - you guys (the Northrup Grumman model guys) are the best in the world!!

Notice, no Nazi stuff above!

Regards to all!

[gery]

yes, i agree with you...

And i think "nazi" , now does'nt exist.....

it's just an "hoax" of the "international mondialist lobbys" when an "information" don't go in their wanted direction....like the "WW2 german advanced tech"

NASA without doct. Von BRAUN does'nt exist and apollo project too....

soon

gery

[pometablava]

shockonlip,

I’ve found your review very informative and thanks to it I'm really interested now in watching the documentary.

But I'm a bit confused too.

In the first posts of this threat, Stuka clearly told us the documentary has two parts:

1st part) The construction of a Ho 229 replica and its RCS testing at Northrop Grumman.

the real stars of this show will be the people of
Northrop Grumman. Most of the time, details of their work
are closely held inside the company, but this is an oppor-
tunity to show the world how Northrop Grumman people
excel at what they do.

2nd part) A brief story of the design and contruction of the original Ho 229 prototypes at Germany  in 1945. The last days of the III Reich.

It’s widely acknowledged that Germany won the
‘aviation technology’ battle in WW2

could the German “bat-winged” stealth aircraft have eluded Allied
radar and changed the course of the war?

Had Germany been able to field this jet-powered fly-
ing wing before the end of World War II, how would it
have performed against Allied aircraft? Did the Germans
incorporate rudimentary low-observable elements into the
Ho 229? Could it have eluded British radar long enough
to make Germany’s London bombing campaign succeed?
These are some of the tantalizing questions the documen-
tary will try to answer.

The first part is great. It's what you describe. Very interesting facts. I'd love to see that documentary.
The second part caused controversy in our forum. Most members posting in this topic had argued with documented sources showing its speculative nature.

The question is:

In your post you say there is no Nazi stuff in the documentary. Then, that second part has been deleted from the final edition. Is that true?


Regards,

Antonio


PS: After reading all the posts in the Topic again I have been reading carefully NG's website (following the link Gery posted). I must admit that despite showing some biased facts about the Ho 229 (obviosly to support interest in the documentary), information about wuderwaffen is mostly honest and serious.