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Author Topic: updates for Armstrong Siddley Terrier engines ......  (Read 5991 times)

Offline tartle

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Re: updates for Armstrong Siddley Terrier engines ......
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2013, 10:34:59 am »
Good question... the Exe worked so well and the Deerhund so badly! I had a similar thought a few hours ago..thought transference?... and have started looking at what drawings/photos are available.. will start sharing asap... in the meantime if there are any materials others have found... flag it up... 'together we are better".
"... prototypes are a way of letting you think out loud. You want the right people to think aloud with you. - Paul MacCready, aeronautical engineer.

Offline LowObservable

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Re: updates for Armstrong Siddley Terrier engines ......
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2013, 12:49:50 am »
While we're at it, wouldn't the Merkava 1-3 tank engine count as "pressure air cooled"?


http://www2.l-3com.com/cps/cps/1500_hp.htm

Offline airman

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Re: updates for Armstrong Siddley Terrier engines ......
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2013, 11:34:31 am »
Thanks tartle for specifications of Armstrong Siddley Terrier .
450-470 Hp , well probably if Armstrong Siddley F.9/35 was produced like prototype surely performance could be been worst than in project .
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 04:01:54 am by airman »

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: updates for Armstrong Siddley Terrier engines ......
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2013, 10:53:51 am »
I have achieved some relatively happy hunting today and have managed to dig-up the following. In the first picture I posted in reply No.6 you can see the rear of an aircraft with the serial number K.4299, this was the Armstrong Whitworth prototype to P.27/32 (won by the Fairey Battle), the AW.29. The aircraft sustained considerable damage when it was forced to land with one of the main undercarriage wheels retracted. However, AW got a contract (subcontracted to AS motors) to repair the aircraft and modify it to fly with a Deerhound II using the forward flow cooling configuration. However, it was then found that the forward flow cooling configuration was unsuitable (one assumes overheating) so work was suspended. In the meantime Whitley K.7243 flew with the reverse flow cooling configuration utilising the under cowling air intake as seen in the pictures, this was apparently successful and it was decided to transfer this cowling to the AW.29 so that Whitley K.7243 could be fitted with a new installation using wing duct cooling.

This of course never happened, in part because AW were so overloaded with other work that K.4299 ended up being stored outside. But also the scope of required changes to the airframe and its limitations as a test-bed, compounded by a lack of Deerhound IIs, made the exercise not worthwhile. Then Whitley K.7243 crashed on take-off (nothing to do with the Deerhound) on the 6th March 1940 so it never got its wing duct cooling.

Apparently work on the Deerhound II was stopped after the crash of K.7243 but was restarted after in 1940 which is when the Deerhound III emerged only for that to be abandoned after the bombing of the ASM facilities on the 8th April 1941.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 04:00:58 am by JFC Fuller »

Offline tartle

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Re: updates for Armstrong Siddley Terrier engines ......
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2013, 05:35:24 pm »
JFC... useful stuff there...I have a collection of nearly two dozen photos of the Deerhound engines...so I will go through them using a fairly close scrute and see how many versions there are. Certainly, at first glance, the cooling seems less sophisticated than the Pennine.
"... prototypes are a way of letting you think out loud. You want the right people to think aloud with you. - Paul MacCready, aeronautical engineer.

Offline tartle

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Re: updates for Armstrong Siddley Terrier engines ......
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2013, 05:35:23 am »
Whilst I am occupied on other stuff.. I thought this page from my AS tea chest might intrigue you..
it is a twin Terrier installation in what I do not know!
"... prototypes are a way of letting you think out loud. You want the right people to think aloud with you. - Paul MacCready, aeronautical engineer.

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: updates for Armstrong Siddley Terrier engines ......
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2013, 02:06:17 pm »
Tartle,

As ever, thank you that. That drawing is driving me nuts as I am sure I have seen a configuration almost identical to that just with Sabre's and I just can not recall what it was in. The various large bomber designs seem the most likely candidate.

Offline tartle

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Re: updates for Armstrong Siddley Terrier engines ......
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2013, 04:54:48 pm »
JFC...you've reminded me of a thought I had earlier which faded away... wasn't there a great deal of scheming around 75 t0n and 100 ton bombloads to carry Barnes Wallis's big bombs? So Bristol, Vickers, Avro etc all came up with multi-engine aircraft around '42-43.
Now, if I had thought to search our own board... Bristol.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 04:59:21 pm by tartle »
"... prototypes are a way of letting you think out loud. You want the right people to think aloud with you. - Paul MacCready, aeronautical engineer.

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: updates for Armstrong Siddley Terrier engines ......
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2013, 04:59:01 am »
A whole range of companies studied 75-100 ton bombers, Handley page, Vickers, Bristol, and Avro. The whole exercise seems to have been a thought experiment rather than a serious programme.

I originally thought last night that this configuration could have been for that programme but the power output does not seem high enough. Could this just have been a generic configuration drawn up by AS engineers as part of study?

For instance, in Kew there is an RAE report about various possible configurations for cowlings and air intake layouts for the RR Exe, could this be something similar?

Offline tartle

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Re: updates for Armstrong Siddley Terrier engines ......
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2013, 04:38:59 pm »
JFC,
The drawing for twin Deerhound was probably earlier (by a couple of years) than those projects so could be a generic installation as you suggest.
As I wrote previously some drawings need to be retraced as Xerox technology of 40-odd years ago wasn't upto capturing the detail.. but as a taster another in the series gives more power, 8000bhp; this is a twin Mastiff layout!You may just see the layout. I'll re-post when redrawn.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 05:53:25 am by tartle »
"... prototypes are a way of letting you think out loud. You want the right people to think aloud with you. - Paul MacCready, aeronautical engineer.

Offline tartle

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Re: updates for Armstrong Siddley Terrier engines ......
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2013, 04:43:10 am »
Stewart S. Tresilian (the S. is for Stewart- such a good engineer they named him twice!) was assistant to Rowledge and worked on R ngine, doing a great deal of the calcs for the engine. Keen on putting up revs for 1931 version and then 'sprint'. But he was a car man at heart and was attached to Elliott to do that... but also did torsional vib studies on the early Merlin to identify a solution to its problems in that area. His CV is here.
When he came back to Derby in 1945 he set up a 'private' design office and schemed an X-16 configuration engine building on ...hound experience, incorporating Crecy to give a 2,500 hp engine to compete with the Tweed turboprop.
He went on to leave RR and did a BRM engine.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 09:19:44 am by tartle »
"... prototypes are a way of letting you think out loud. You want the right people to think aloud with you. - Paul MacCready, aeronautical engineer.

Offline WJPearce

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Re: updates for Armstrong Siddley Terrier engines ......
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2013, 11:13:48 am »
Hello tartle,

What book is that scan out of, and does it have more on the Tresilian X-16 engine?

Thank you,

Offline tartle

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Re: updates for Armstrong Siddley Terrier engines ......
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2013, 12:56:49 pm »
Hi WJP,
The scan is from the RRHT HS21-Crecy book. There are three pages about the engine..see below.
"... prototypes are a way of letting you think out loud. You want the right people to think aloud with you. - Paul MacCready, aeronautical engineer.

Offline WJPearce

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Re: updates for Armstrong Siddley Terrier engines ......
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2013, 02:55:15 pm »
Thank you for the quick reply. I have that book, but the layout looked different in the X-16 drawing. It was because it was one of the fold-out pages and I did not realize (or recognize) it. Oops.

Awesome book by the way, and thank you for the additional scans!

Regards,

Offline tartle

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Re: updates for Armstrong Siddley Terrier engines ......
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2013, 05:50:02 am »
Easily done! When I stumbled onto one of the foldouts I went to index where the illustrations are listed and identified as foldouts... found others I did not discover while reading the book!
By the way ..I like your second website.. makes me envious of the positive attitude to certification compared with us.
"... prototypes are a way of letting you think out loud. You want the right people to think aloud with you. - Paul MacCready, aeronautical engineer.