German WWII Atomic Bombs

[Kiwiguy]

The Belgian Congo was not Germany's wartime source of Uranium. During the 1944 Germany became a net exporter of uranium to Japan by U-boat following a series of requests by General Touransouke Kawashima seeking Czech Uranium in 1943, which are now made public from Magic decrypts.

Have we mentioned the German attempt at a reactor?

That would be the one where they suspended uranium blocks in heavy water.

Without a reflector so neutron density could'nt build and thus the thing would never start a proper fission cascade.

Zen, your line of logic is wrong because you are assuming incorrectly that the only path to a nuclear bomb is through a nuclear reactor (to make Plutonium). In fact Heisenberg's civilian Kaiser Wilhelm Gesselschaft (KWG) team was following that prospect. The destruction of heavy water from Norway hampered this project.

Incidentally the Voermark plant in Norway was not the only source of Heavy water for Nazi Germany as there was an equivalent plant in Germany known as the Beck plant (ref Virus House) whose location I have yet to establish.   

Uranium Enrichment

The other path to a nuclear bomb was through Uranium enrichment. Germany was also pursuing that path in WW2 with Prof Kurt Diebner's Heeres Waffen Amt (HWA) team. In July 1944, the SS took over the HWA project and shifted it to an underground facility in Czechoslovakia. The SS virtually ruled over Czechoslovakia and used the nation as a giant SS factory. Czechoslovakia supplied Uranium from mines at Jac-y-mov (then called Jochimsthal). An ultra secret nuclear facility was housed in the Richard Mine in Czechoslovakia with it's abundance of Smectite deposits. Smectite is a clay material with high absorbency of toxic materials. One irony is that this former Nazi underground complex is now used as a modern nuclear waste dump. 

Dr Erich Baage developed the gaseous Uranium centrifuge at Kiel Unavernin in 1942 which he called the Isotope Sluice. It is nowadays called the Harteck process after another Nazi scientist Dr Paul Harteck who developed the centrifuge to an industrial scale during WW2. In early 1944 a huge contract was let to HWA for the industrial scale development of Uranium centrifuges. The budget for this was ten times greater than the entire budget available to Heisenberg's KWA team (Virus House)

Wingknut made the observations:

2)  The real debate among historians is not over whether or not there was a German A-bomb or where it might have been tested, but over why a German A-bomb didn't happen. 

Which I think is the real point to be made. Before commenting on that however I slip back to answer the rest of Wingknut's point... 

The best defence of the claim that Heisenberg actively worked to derail the German A-bomb project is Thomas Powers's 'Heisenberg's War'.  But even Powers has had to admit that not a single historian has been convinced by his view.  Almost diametrically opposed to powers is historian Paul Lawrence Rose, who claims that Heisenberg worked to deliver an atomic bomb, failed and then thought up a false story of moral qualms to cover this failure.  However, the idea that an entire parallel bomb programme could have issued in a successful test without Heisenberg (or any of the other German physicists interned at Farm Hall) hearing about it, is very far-fetched indeed.

To the contrary Wingknut, there was a parallel bomb programme under far more able scientists, like Gerlach, Diebner and Harteck. Heisenberg's contribution to the Nazi bomb project was quite minimal, if not farcical.

Secret negotiations October 1944

The real answer to Wingknut's question is that in October 1944 either Himmler, or Kammler allowed Gen Walter Dornberger to take dr Werner von Braun to Lisbon for secret negotiations with two US representatives from General Electric. This is disclosed by Dornberger's post war comments at CSDIC internment camp 11 to General Bassenge, recorded by the British.   

Nazi Germany did not fail to build a nuclear weapon. they abandoned it. Immediately following the Lisbon meeting the Manhatten Project removed Germany as a target for the Allied A-bomb.

The fact was that the RAF had air superiority over the UK and thus delivery of a nuclear weapon over London was beyond the Luftwaffe. Although there were plans for a winged A4b which could reach London and perhaps even New York, it required homing on a pre-planted radio beacon, in addition to a self sacrifice pilot. Planting a radio beacon in London or New York had itself become near impossible by late 1944. A single stage winged piloted A6 missile was also proposed, but not developed.

From various inferences it appears Himmler was trying to cut a deal in October 1944 for Western Allies to allow German forces to be transferred to the eastern front to oppose the Soviets, however Hitler sabotaged Himmler's proposals with the Bulge offensive Operation "Watch on the Rhine."

Rugen / Ordruf bombs

One last point needs to be made about the unusually large bomb blasts at Rugen in October 1944 and Ohrdruf in March 1945 which Luigi Romosera raised with Rainer Karlsche.

A number of inferences suggest to me that the so called Nazi Bell device which Dr Kurt Debus (later of NASA fame) was involved with, was actually used to develop a highly ionised pinkish reagent for thermobaric bombs. The pinkish liquid appears to have involved some quantities of (possibly) enriched Uranium and coal dust, creating a Fuel Air Explosive.

I do not think Karlsche's sources are wrong. I just think Karlsche has tried to join the wrong dots and come to mistaken conclusions.

There was a plausible Nazi A-bomb project to create Uranium gun type, A-bomb which appears abandoned for political reasons in October 1944. There appears to have also been a Fuel Air Explosive possibly involving enriched Uranium in a pinkish catalytic reagent, used at Rugen and Ordruf.   

Simon 

[Barrington Bond]

Please expand if possible about Von Braun's "secret" negotiations at Lisbon?!

Regards,
Barry

[flateric]

Secret negotiations October 1944

The real answer to Wingknut's question is that in October 1944 either Himmler, or Kammler allowed Gen Walter Dornberger to take dr Werner von Braun to Lisbon for secret negotiations with two US representatives from General Electric. This is disclosed by Dornberger's post war comments at CSDIC internment camp 11 to General Bassenge, recorded by the British.   

Nazi Germany did not fail to build a nuclear weapon. they abandoned it. Immediately following the Lisbon meeting the Manhatten Project removed Germany as a target for the Allied A-bomb.

what a bullshit

every googling von Braun+Lisbon gives you something written by Simon Gunson, NZ

[flateric]

...and then we come to David Irving, yeah? Enough for me...

[Michel Van]

One last point needs to be made about the unusually large bomb blasts at Rugen in October 1944 and Ohrdruf in March 1945 which Luigi Romosera raised with Rainer Karlsche.

on those two places were never a nuclear explosion
soilsampel show not traces of isotopes you find after nuclear explosion

Uranium Enrichment
Physicist Kurt Diebner work for Uranverein
want to build Small nuclear reactor to "breed" weapon Uran called "Uranmaschine"
build near Berlin in 1943-44
in 2003 Scientists of Margburg take soilsampel out remains of "Uranmaschine"
and check them for Isotopes
they found trace of enriched Uran with trace of Plutonium !
but not enough, mean the "Uranmaschine" run for short time

the REAL Secret negotiations October 1944
is only this: Himmler talks with Western Allies to have a separate peace treaty
to allow German forces to be transferred to the eastern front to oppose the Soviets

nothing about Nukes or Hightech for Western Allies in exchange for peace treaty

but the rest with Von Braun trip and
about Nukes or Hightech for Western Allies in exchange for peace treaty
until plausible Nazi A-bomb project to create Uranium gun type,

sorry, is something for alternate History stuff

[Barrington Bond]

Well I did smell a certain bullock dropping odour but it intrigued me what this Lisbon trip was supposed to be about.

Regards,
Barry

[Kiwiguy]

The source is not bullock dropping odour.

You need to consult the source and the source is not David Irving. The source is Dornberger. I refer to "Report on information obtained from Senior Officer PW on 2 -- 7 Aug 45" G.R.G.G. 341, CSDIC Camp 11.

An excerpt of the British CSDSIC(UK) Camp 11 report dated 11 Aug 45 reads:

7. Dornberger, in conversation with Generalmajor Bassenge, made the following miscellaneous remarks dealing with the 'V 2'. He said that:

    a. 720 persons were killed in the first raid on Peenemünde [August 17, 1943] and all the work there suffered two months' delay.

    b. In Poland, at the Heidelager [Blizna], they had once fired a 'V 2' into a concentration camp. He consoled himself with the thought that that would be chalked up to the SS and not to themselves.

    c. A German general in a Russian tank had one day appeared in front of one of Dornberger's 'Regimenter' which was near Arnswalde and had called upon its members by megaphone to come over to the Russians. He had promised them that the Tchochinski(?) Works were waiting to receive them and would pay them the maximum wages to build 'V 2s' for Stalin.

    d. Braun and Dornberger himself had realised at the end of December 1944 that things were going wrong and had consequently been in touch since that time with the General Electric Company through the German Embassy in Portugal, with a view to coming to some arrangement.

The British Report also notes the following in relation to Hitler's own comments alluding to the possibility of a nuclear warhead for the V-2

2. Dornberger claimed, on the other hand, that he had begged the Führer to stop the V-weapon propaganda, because nothing more could be expected from just one ton of explosive. To this Hitler had replied that Dornberger: might not expect more but he himself certainly did.

The following quote from the Camp 11 report on Dornberger mentions Hitler's regrets at not believing in Dornberger's V-2 project:

1. Generalleutnant Dornberger stated as below to Generalleutnant Heim that Hitler had publicly apologised for his failure to appreciate the full worth of the 'V 2' weapon:

Dornberger: The following incident was interesting: When I saw the Führer the last time, which was in May 1943 [sic. in fact July 9, 1944?], after I'd shown him a film about us, he was quite taken aback. Formerly the Führer had always turned the V-2 business down 100%. He said: "If only I' d believed in it!" If it really comes to anything, Europe is too small for the war", and all kind of things like that. Then he said: "There are two people in my life whose pardon I must ask. One is Generalfeldmarschall v Brauchitsch, who said at the end of each report he made to me: "My Führer, think of Peenemünde!", and the other is you, general, for not having believed in you."

Also the report mentions that Hitler had ordered the execution of Peenemunde rocket scientists. Kammler arranged their evacuation by train in defiance of Hitler's Nero decree.

6. Dornberger stated to General Fink that [SS Gruppenführer Hans] Kammler had been ordered by the Führer not to let Braun, Dornberger and the 450 scientists and technicians at Peenemünde fall into Anglo-American hands but to liquidate them all beforehand.

[Kiwiguy]

Michael I do not disagree with your comment:

the REAL Secret negotiations October 1944
is only this: Himmler talks with Western Allies to have a separate peace treaty
to allow German forces to be transferred to the eastern front to oppose the Soviets

but that is by your own definition, alternate history stuff.

What I have commented about Diebner and the Uranium centrifuges is absolutely cited from conventional history. It is interesting that NARA sources do not even admit the Lisbon meeting.

Uranium Enrichment
Physicist Kurt Diebner work for Uranverein
want to build Small nuclear reactor to "breed" weapon Uran called "Uranmaschine"
build near Berlin in 1943-44
in 2003 Scientists of Margburg take soilsampel out remains of "Uranmaschine"
and check them for Isotopes
they found trace of enriched Uran with trace of Plutonium !
but not enough, mean the "Uranmaschine" run for short time

Except Michael that the Nazis were never able to create sustained nuclear fission to produce Plutonium for an A-bomb, so any trace of plutonium found was more likely atmospheric fall out from Chernobyl.

Dr Fritz Houtermanns was the Nazi scientist who promoted a Nazi Plutonium bomb based on the 1940 A-bomb proposal by Professor Josef Schintlemeister.

The problem with creating plutonium is that one has to create sustained fission for three years in a heavy water reactor, then cool the uranium fuel rods for two years in a cooling pond and spend three months chemically separating Pu-239 from the other nuclear waste. Also as the north koreans discovered when they tried this, you can still get it wrong and breed too much Pu240 in which case you get a fizzled nuke.

Had the Nazis started in 1944 to operate a heavy water reactor, they could not have built a plutonium A-bomb before 1949.

With Uranium centrifuges however depending upon the quantity of centrifuges, they could have acquired enough bomb grade Uranium in 6-9 months.

[flateric]

It only rises a question what exactly they syringed Dornberger...

   c. A German general in a Russian tank had one day appeared in front of one of Dornberger's 'Regimenter' which was near Arnswalde and had called upon its members by megaphone to come over to the Russians. He had promised them that the Tchochinski(?) Works were waiting to receive them and would pay them the maximum wages to build 'V 2s' for Stalin.

WUAHAHHA! "Tchochinski Works" as a native Russian speaker I still wonder what the hell was this mysterious work offer.
Sounds like if captured US Army general was offering you to work at Retttstone Caffetteriiah. It's bullshit.

   d. Braun and Dornberger himself had realised at the end of December 1944 that things were going wrong and had consequently been in touch since that time with the General Electric Company through the German Embassy in Portugal, with a view to coming to some arrangement.

Some arrangement = cancelling nuke attack on Germany and German A-Bomb project? Huh...

You refer to 'Report...' - is it published? When, where?

[edwest]

It is interesting to note some of the standard replies. In the book Atomversuche in Deutschland, author Guenter Nagel presents a copy of one of the American Intelligence documents now held by the Deutsches Museum.

Dated 2 May 1945 from Headquarters, European Theater of Operations, United States Army, Alsos Mission, APO 887

Subject: Gerlach Summary of Nuclear Reports

1. A new edition of "Forschungsberichte" was planned containing articles on successful pile experiments.

[Successful pile experiments? How can this be?]

3. Abbreviations in the above have the following significance:

L II  Leipzig II
CTR  Chem. technische Reichsanstalt
G II  Gottow II
G III  Gottow III
B V  Berlin Versuch


The name of Heisenberg has been cemented in the history as if he led the only team in Germany. The German Atomic Project was actually three separate projects. One with the Army (HWA) led by Heisenberg, the Reichspost, led by Houtermans with von Ardenne, and the SS.

Atomic separation was handled by the fourth largest company in the world and the largest chemical concern, I.G. Farben (source: Critical Mass by Carter P. Hydrick). The Americans also required the services of a large chemical company for separation and reactor construction.  They chose DuPont de Nemours (source: Nylon and Bombs by Pap A. Ndiaye).

A captured Luftwaffe document clearly shows the effect of one atomic bomb after detonation over Manhatten. The radius of destruction extends out to just over four kilometers from the center of the blast, and is broken down into zones of destructive effect. This was known in 1943.

[starviking]

2)  The real debate among historians is not over whether or not there was a German A-bomb or where it might have been tested, but over why a German A-bomb didn't happen.  The best defence of the claim that Heisenberg actively worked to derail the German A-bomb project is Thomas Powers's 'Heisenberg's War'.  But even Powers has had to admit that not a single historian has been convinced by his view.  Almost diametrically opposed to powers is historian Paul Lawrence Rose, who claims that Heisenberg worked to deliver an atomic bomb, failed and then thought up a false story of moral qualms to cover this failure. 

The problem is, that in matters involving science or military tactics* most historians are flailing about in the dark. Most of Heisenberg's scientific contemporaries accepted his story - and they were well enough aware of his intellectual capabilities to make that call, historians were, and are not capable of that.

Starviking


*See the controversy over bombing Auschwitz in recent times.

[zen]

Zen, your line of logic is wrong because you are assuming incorrectly that the only path to a nuclear bomb is through a nuclear reactor (to make Plutonium).

It was the path most obvious back then, this was all cutting edge science back then, with LOTS of gaps in their knowledge.
Line of logic is clear insofar as the reactor would kill a lot of people.

Dr Erich Baage developed the gaseous Uranium centrifuge at Kiel Unavernin in 1942 which he called the Isotope Sluice. It is nowadays called the Harteck process after another Nazi scientist Dr Paul Harteck who developed the centrifuge to an industrial scale during WW2. In early 1944 a huge contract was let to HWA for the industrial scale development of Uranium centrifuges. The budget for this was ten times greater than the entire budget available to Heisenberg's KWA team (Virus House)

How many centrifuges?
Its not a trivial effort to get thousands of centrifuges working reliably for long enough to produce enriched uranium. For a military effort we're talking many thousands. Thats a lot of metal to machine and assemble. Which in turn means a lot of production capacity taken out of use for other more pressing needs at the time.


Hang on...'44?
What evidence is there for the actual completion of the contract to produce these centrifuges?

The German Atomic Project was actually three separate projects. One with the Army (HWA) led by Heisenberg, the Reichspost, led by Houtermans with von Ardenne, and the SS.

Three seperate projects, three seperate project leaders?
How very NAZI indeed, probably in competition I would imagine, and thus detracting from what should have been a singular effort.

A captured Luftwaffe document clearly shows the effect of one atomic bomb after detonation over Manhatten. The radius of destruction extends out to just over four kilometers from the center of the blast, and is broken down into zones of destructive effect. This was known in 1943.

Which proves nothing beyond what is estimatable at the time, it does not prove anything but theoretical studies.

[Barrington Bond]

Kiwiguy,

would you like to tell us why you were banned from World War Two Zone?

http://worldwartwozone.com/forums/what-if/8653-hitler-had-the-atom-bomb-2.html

Regards,
Barry

ps is your real name Sy or Simon Gunson as most of the articles I find about this "Lisbon" meeting have been posted by these names.

[Justo Miranda]

In my opinion, the propagandistic effect and military effectiveness that the bomb might have generated has been overestimated.
It is not enough to have the weapon; it must be shipped, launched and made work.
How many possibilities might a heavily loaded He 177 have had against the London air defences of 1945? And against the 9000 Allied airplanes over Normandy in June 1944?
An even when the plan would have worked…. perhaps the partial destruction of London or the Invasion Fleet would have stopped the Russian advance?

The capacity for destruction of one or two A-Bomb would not have given the victory to Germany.

Actually, the conventional bombers over Tokyo produced more destruction than the Hiroshima bomb and (perhaps this is not politically correct, but it is true) the city recovered in just a few years. Hiroshima is still in the same place.
On the contrary, after the destruction of London, the Allied bombers could have used their chemical and biological weapons. There would have been many Dresdes and Germany would still be inhabitable nowadays because of the anthrax.

None of the wunderwaffen I have studied would have altered the result of the war.
To change the course of History is more difficult than it seems to be.

Attached stuff
_Haigerloch nuclear pile
from "Most Secret War" by R.V.Jones, Coronet Books 1978
-"Uran Projekt" drawings
from "Deutsche Geheimwaffen 1939-45"
by Fritz Hahn,Erich Hoffmann Verlag 1963

[XP67_Moonbat]

This is very entertaining. I'm surprised nobody's mention Joseph P. Farrell's book, Reich Of The Black Sun. It follows a lot of this line of thought. Very Interestingk.

THIS JUST IN: I was just banned from the TrekBBS today    But it was worth it. Don't feel bad Simon.