Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Secret Projects Forum
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: German WWII Atomic Bombs  (Read 28656 times)
boxkite
Senior Member
CLEARANCE: Top Secret
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 630



« Reply #105 on: January 29, 2009, 10:24:17 pm »

...

I have however done my own research into the German A-bomb project and Heisenberg was relatively unimportant to the Nazi nuclear effort. The real research was being conducted by people like Max von Ardenne, Erich Baage, Paul Harteck, Peter Debye and Kurt Diebner.

...

Who the hell is Max von Ardenne? One 'author' writes it wrong ... and all the others crib this mistake. An example for the 'carefulness' and trustworthiness of the 'authors'. (Actually his name was Manfred von Ardenne.)

Btw, "In 1939 Debye traveled to the United States of America to deliver the Baker Lectures at Cornell University in Ithaca, New York. After leaving Germany in early 1940, Debye became a professor at Cornell ..." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Debye)

"..please don't be anger, how I use therm Nazi "

In cinema,  "Nazis" are the bad, very bad guys, who in the end always loose.
Today, they are those persons, who may live in your neighbourhood, kind and
politely, always wishing you a "good morning" and if you just get to know their
opinions about rape, or child abuse, you may even think "nothing wrong with this
guy !". And if you have a look into the pamphlets of their political parties, you will
hardly find demands as "invade Poland", "attack the arch enemy France", or "kill all
jews" ... Their political leaders have learned to keep quite and are trying to integrate
into political live, but not by changing themselves, I really think, but by camouflage.
For me as a german ( and a german tax payer!) it is very hard to bear the knowledge,
that their official party still is fed with taxes !
And there are still a lot of attempts, to lure people to their side. And for me, books as those
mentioned aren't technical or historical documentations, but baits for the unaware.
Honestly, the title "Siegeswaffen" for a book can only be meant ironically, or it is clear,
what the contents are. And again : Who of us would believe in a russian book,
claiming that during 1943 there were partially succesful attempts to "beam" troops behind
the german lines. As a proof, there are reports, telling that the german commanders were
totally surprised to meet russian, where they never were expected ... !
Would you buy this story ?
And now think about all those stories about german "Wunderwaffen", that are told and discussed,
instead of thrown into the dustbin ....      Angry

Well, we'll have this theme on and on again, I know... Roll Eyes 


I quite agree! Nothing more to say!
Logged
XP67_Moonbat
Senior Member
CLEARANCE: Top Secret
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 947



« Reply #106 on: January 29, 2009, 10:44:18 pm »

Do I sense a closing of this thread coming on soon?

Moonbat
Logged

In God we trust, all others we monitor. :-p
zen
Senior Member
CLEARANCE: Secret
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 387


« Reply #107 on: January 30, 2009, 12:37:44 am »

I think so.

Quote
If you read David Irving’s meticulously researched book “The Virus House”

David Irving? The very same one who denys the Holocaust?
Logged
Michel Van
Senior Member
CLEARANCE: Top Secret
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 1547



« Reply #108 on: January 30, 2009, 05:32:24 am »

David Irving? The very same one who denys the Holocaust?

yep is that guy
Logged

I love Strange Technology
overscan
Secret Projects Forum Team
Administrator
CLEARANCE: Top Secret
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5407



WWW
« Reply #109 on: January 30, 2009, 05:53:28 am »

..... It was mentioned in La Fusee Pilote "T" and Freidrich Georg's book "Siegeswaffen band 2, Star Wars 1947." 
Sorry Kiwiguy, but I'm with Overscan, Orionblamblam and Pometablava on this. I've read a large portion of Mr. F. Georg's books, and in my (far less than humble  Wink ) opinion, he is guilty of exactly what Overscan initially suggested. I usually call it "Superman Research", i.e. leaping to very tall conclusions in a single bound  Grin.

In one of his latest books, "Mit dem Balkenkreuz zum Mond" (loosely "With the Iron Cross to the Moon") he jumps on the "the-US-moonlandings-were-a-hoax" bandwaggon, although he does courteously admit that the initial Apollo 11 landing was "probably real"  Tongue.

I find Mr. Georgs books entertaining, and they fire my imagination to no end, but when it comes to anything to do with the real world, I would take anything from his pen with, not just a grain, but more like a couple of waggonloads of salt.

Yes, the classic example of this to my mind is the book 1421:The Year China Discovered the World where the author simply seems to make a gigantic "superman leap" (China sent out a huge fleet of ships to explore the world) and then spend hundreds of hours desperately searching for evidence to back up his outrageous theory.

Crucial to this method of research is the ability to ignore any evidence that might contradict or damage the author's thesis, no matter how accepted or proven it is by the wider scientific or historical community, and to implicitly trust any evidence that supports the thesis, even when it is demonstrably wrong or untrustworthy.

Topic is locked.
Logged
Kiwiguy
CLEARANCE: Confidential
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 40


« Reply #110 on: May 10, 2010, 01:00:42 am »


The Rosetta stone for discovering the truth of Nazi nuclear efforts comes from Prof Kurt Diebner, whom in 1956 under the nom de plume Werner Tautorus, published in Atomkernenergie, pp 368-370 and pp.423-425 catalogue of 228 German wartime reports on their atomic research, giving their dates.

Another valuable resource is a postwar account by ultracentrifuge inventor Dr Erich Bagge and Prof Kurt Diebner (formerly HWA) published in Von der Uranspaltungbis Calder Hall (Rowohlt, Hamburg, 1957).    

Quote
Quote
Zen, your line of logic is wrong because you are assuming incorrectly that the only path to a nuclear bomb is through a nuclear reactor (to make Plutonium).
It was the path most obvious back then, this was all cutting edge science back then, with LOTS of gaps in their knowledge.
Line of logic is clear insofar as the reactor would kill a lot of people.

Not entirely so Zen. Houtermanns was brilliant. Far more so than Heisenberg whom history reveres as the leading nazi nuclear scientist. Houtermanns not only figured out the theory by 1941 but also published it. The fact that Houtermanns published so much which it is accepted post war which Heisenberg is not supposed to understand calls into question either Heisenberg's competency or honesty.

Verifiable references to Houtermanns’ research on developing Plutonium weapons:

Houtermanns’s August 1944 paper “Zur Frage der Auslösung von Kernhettenreaktionen”  (found in Oak Ridge file box G-267)
Jentschke and Lintner’s paper: Schnelle Neutronen in Uran (found in Oak Ridge file box G-227)
Volz and Haxel paper (found in Oak Ridge file box G-118)
Prof J Schintlmeister’s report (element 94 Plutonium) is given in Oak Ridge file box G-111)

Verifiable references to Prof Kurt Diebner’s separate Uranium bomb project:

Diebner’s report “Experiments on the Initiation of Nuclear Reactions by Means of Exploding Substances.” ALSOS files
Herrmann, Hartwig, Rackwitz, Trinks and Schaub, report entitled:
“Versuche über die Einleitung von Kernkettenreaktionen durch dieWirkung explodierender Stoffe, 1944 (found in Oak Ridge file box G-227)
Prof Kurt Diebner’s review of the experiments, “Fusionsprozesse mit Hilfe konvergenter Stosswellen,”  published in Kerntechnik, March 1962, pp 89-93
Dr Erich Bagge’s wartime diaries
ALSOS report Vdk 339


Quote
Quote
Dr Erich Baage developed the gaseous Uranium centrifuge at Kiel Unavernin in 1942 which he called the Isotope Sluice. It is nowadays called the Harteck process after another Nazi scientist Dr Paul Harteck who developed the centrifuge to an industrial scale during WW2. In early 1944 a huge contract was let to HWA for the industrial scale development of Uranium centrifuges. The budget for this was ten times greater than the entire budget available to Heisenberg's KWA team (Virus House)
How many centrifuges?

Unclear however after bombing of the Hellage ultracentrifuge factory in Freiburg on 27 November 1944 it was noted by ALSOS that "several" were put into dispersed storage around Hamburg. Essau the administrative plenepotentiary for Nazi nuclear science set aside a 600,000 Reichsmark budget for ten double unltracentrifuge machines to be manufactured by Kiel firm Anschütz & Co.

Quote
Its not a trivial effort to get thousands of centrifuges working reliably for long enough to produce enriched uranium. For a military effort we're talking many thousands. Thats a lot of metal to machine and assemble. Which in turn means a lot of production capacity taken out of use for other more pressing needs at the time.

Correct it wasn't a trivial effort however... to say it required many thousands of centrifuges is I would say an over statement.

As for detracting from other wartime production, this was a high priority project to produce a weapon which might have won the war and Nazi leaders were aware of the importance. Given the massive slave labour force and the sheer scale of for example U-boat production at Kiel where Anschütz & Co was based, it was a drop in the bucket to manufacture these centrifuges.  

Quote
Hang on...'44?
What evidence is there for the actual completion of the contract to produce these centrifuges?


In answer to your question may I suggest you read

Report on Uranium centrifuge plants at Kandern & Freiburg (found in Oak Ridge file box G-330)

The Keil firm Anschütz & Co. established a general workshop, then a mass-production line for Mark III-B centrifuges at a disused Linen factory in Kandern near the border with Switzerland. The factory code name was “Angora Farm.” Mark III-B centrifuges were being mass produced at the Hellage factory in Freiburg which was destroyed in an air raid on 27 November 1944.

Other more general references to Nazi development work on Uranium centrifuges from 1942 to 1944 are found in:

Dr Wilhelm Groth’s diary and reports (found in Oak Ridge file box G-146, 149, & 158)
Speer, April 17 April 1942, NARS microfilm T-175, roll 125
Unidentified diary seized by ALSOS (found in Oak Ridge file box G-355)
Published Report: The Ultracentrifuge, 1940 by Theo Svedberg & Dr Kai Pedersen Stockholm University    

Following a conference on nuclear research in October 1944 Goering’s private office wrote to Walter Gerlach enquiring of realistic chances to develop a nuclear weapon in the near future? Gerlach wrote back detailing progress mentioning heavy water production amongst which he also said:

“ The development of the ultracentrifuge is complete and a working plan for the production of uranium with the necessary U-235 isotope enrichment is under construction. Other processes are being developed to the same end, to lead to simpler plants. The production of the necessary uranium compounds and experiments to produce suitable compounds are in hand.”

(Goering's secretary Gonnert’s correspondence with Gerlach on microfilm Alexandria, Virginia - Military Records Center).


Quote
Quote
The German Atomic Project was actually three separate projects. One with the Army (HWA) led by Heisenberg, the Reichspost, led by Houtermans with von Ardenne, and the SS.


Three seperate projects, three seperate project leaders?
How very NAZI indeed, probably in competition I would imagine, and thus detracting from what should have been a singular effort.

Or perhaps in ways which we may not appreciate now, a more effective comparmentalisation of different approaches?

In any case, I have attempted to answer criticisms by citing some verifiable sources which seems to be the common complaint. It is over to you gentlement to spend hours poring over these archives mainly in German.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 01:06:42 am by Kiwiguy » Logged
edwest
CLEARANCE: Confidential
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 114


« Reply #111 on: May 10, 2010, 01:45:48 am »

From the Nonproliferation Review, Summer 2000.

The Russians seized a 60 ton cyclotron and a plasma-ionic isotope separation installation at the workshop of Manfred von Ardenne. In Austria, the Russians acquired nearly 340 kg of metallic uranium.

[From another source easy to locate online.]

In 1953, Manfred von Ardenne was awarded the Stalin Prize, First Class for his work on the Russian atomic bomb.

From 1945 to 1950, Nikolaus Riehl was in charge of uranium production in Russia.

In 1951, Peter Adolf Thiessen was awarded the Stalin Prize, First Class for his work in uranium enrichment.

Compartmentalization also occurred in the United States during the war.

[Secret Science - Federal Control of American Science and Technology by Herbert N. Foerstel]


"Indeed,among the mutitude of secrecy procedures introduced during World War II, none was more dubious than compartmentalization. Employed by the military on national security grounds, the imposition of this philosopy on scientific research was uniformly counterproductive. One government official admitted that 'more harm in arresting research and development was done by this compartmentalization of information than could ever have been done by the additional scrap of information that the enemy might have picked up by a more general dissemination of knowledge.'"
Logged
Kiwiguy
CLEARANCE: Confidential
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 40


« Reply #112 on: May 10, 2010, 11:26:34 am »

Thank you Joe. I have been offline for a year however I should have cited these sources from the start and that may have averted some criticisms.

In December 1941 Groth reported each ultracentrifuge could produce two kilograms of Uranium Hexafluoride per day enriched by 7% each cycle. Thus if one commenced with 36 kilograms (79lb) of un-enriched Uranium Hexafluoride and then cycled the entire mass about 250 times through one mark III-B ultracentrifuge, one would end up with bomb grade (90%+U235) Uranium Hexaflouride. That is to say enough U235 for one Uranium atom bomb after 9 months.

The Mark III-B was not perfected until late 1944. It is known that at least ten ultracentrifuges were built. A single ultracentrifuge cost between twelve and fifteen thousand Reichsmarks and 600,000 Reichsmarks were budgeted for manufacture of mark III-B ultracentrifuges.

Ten mark III-B ultracentrifuges working in unison could reduce 36kg of Uranium Hexafluoride to bomb grade HEU in under a month.  

The mark III-B ultracentrifuge spun at 60,000 rpm. The centrifuges developed in Iran’s first generation machines hidden below ground at their Netanz site only spun at 11,000rpm which means the Nazi machines were more productive and did not require thousands of them.

Reference sources:

Groth’s laboratory reports based on diary notes for December 1941 (Oak Ridge file G-82)
Postwar monograph Verlag Chemie GMBH, 1949: Über Gaszentrifugen written by Beyerle, Groth, Harteck and Jensen.
ALSOS reports (Oak Ridge file G-83, G-95 and G-88 also refer)


It is worth noting that the inclination of Nazi scientists at the time was not to use HEU directly in a bomb but rather to develop breeder reactors for Plutonium which in actual fact would have incurred a further 6 year delay.

It is hard to say whether enriched uranium was diverted to breeder reactor experiments or was intended for production of a uranium A-bomb however I am convinced by reading other sources that by late 1944 Nazi Atomic scientists and even SS leaders were being courted by ALSOS with proposals for pardons and inclusion in Operation Overcast.

My personal opinion is that by the time ultracentrifuges were able to produce sufficient HEU for an A-bomb Nazi Atomic scientists were already persuaded that the end was nigh and to surrender to US forces, with some exceptions like Diebner and Harteck who never renounced Nazism after the war.  
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 11:29:18 am by Kiwiguy » Logged
zen
Senior Member
CLEARANCE: Secret
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 387


« Reply #113 on: May 11, 2010, 11:53:18 am »

So how many nations use this 'ultracentrifuge' today?
Logged
mz
Senior Member
CLEARANCE: Secret
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 397



« Reply #114 on: May 11, 2010, 12:37:56 pm »

It's the most modern and least energy using method to enrich Uranium by now. I'm really surprised if Germans had that operational during the war, if that is true. It requires really high RPM. Germans did develop the technology in the Soviet Union after the war but it took some time.
Logged
Yildirim
CLEARANCE: Confidential
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 79



« Reply #115 on: May 11, 2010, 06:20:02 pm »

If you mix coal dust and enriched uranium you are not going to get a pink liquid. In the real world, uranium is a metal, and it looks like a metal. Yellow cake is as about as exciting as it gets with uranium. I know that in si-fi you have cool looking translucent, incandescent radioactive material, but that's the movies. Sorry to disappoint.

Logged

"Madness," he murmured. I bowed. "But a great madness,"
RyanCrierie
Senior Member
CLEARANCE: Secret
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 350


Crazy Researcher


WWW
« Reply #116 on: May 12, 2010, 01:11:45 am »

Houtermanns’s August 1944 paper “Zur Frage der Auslösung von Kernhettenreaktionen”  (found in Oak Ridge file box G-267)
Jentschke and Lintner’s paper: Schnelle Neutronen in Uran (found in Oak Ridge file box G-227)
Volz and Haxel paper (found in Oak Ridge file box G-118)
Prof J Schintlmeister’s report (element 94 Plutonium) is given in Oak Ridge file box G-111)

That's nice. Now RG number and NAII number?
Logged
Abraham Gubler
Senior Member
CLEARANCE: Top Secret
**
Offline Offline

Posts: leet



« Reply #117 on: May 12, 2010, 02:25:44 am »

Crucial to this method of research is the ability to ignore any evidence that might contradict or damage the author's thesis, no matter how accepted or proven it is by the wider scientific or historical community, and to implicitly trust any evidence that supports the thesis, even when it is demonstrably wrong or untrustworthy.

It can also be applied to journalism... But usually a JSF needs to be involved somehow...
Logged

"There is a tendency in our planning to confuse the unfamiliar with the improbable." Thomas Schelling
Orionblamblam
Secret Projects Guru
Senior Member
CLEARANCE: Top Secret
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 3336



WWW
« Reply #118 on: May 12, 2010, 02:39:41 am »

Crucial to this method of research is the ability to ignore any evidence that might contradict or damage the author's thesis, no matter how accepted or proven it is by the wider scientific or historical community, and to implicitly trust any evidence that supports the thesis, even when it is demonstrably wrong or untrustworthy.

It can also be applied to journalism... But usually a JSF needs to be involved somehow...

Logged

edwest
CLEARANCE: Confidential
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 114


« Reply #119 on: May 12, 2010, 02:47:27 am »

Houtermanns’s August 1944 paper “Zur Frage der Auslösung von Kernhettenreaktionen”  (found in Oak Ridge file box G-267)
Jentschke and Lintner’s paper: Schnelle Neutronen in Uran (found in Oak Ridge file box G-227)
Volz and Haxel paper (found in Oak Ridge file box G-118)
Prof J Schintlmeister’s report (element 94 Plutonium) is given in Oak Ridge file box G-111)

That's nice. Now RG number and NAII number?




Here's the RG:


http://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/326.html
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC
XHTML | CSS | Aero79 design by Bloc
Page created in 0.112 seconds with 19 queries.