German WWII Atomic Bombs

[Lockon]

Hi all,

I was doing some reading on a web site that happen to say that the German's where working on Proyected Atomic Bombs aournd 3 to 4 different types.................is this right or is it just a what-if thing?

If anyone has any info or drawings.............I would love to see them!.

And if anyone would know the size of them if would be nice to know aswell.

Lockon

[dannydale]

I'm not sure...if Germany's atom bomb program got...off the ground.

[Orionblamblam]

There is a *lot* of information floating around regarding WWII German atom bomb designs. One problem: the vast bulk of that information is PURE BULLSHIT.

The short form is: Heisenberg, either knowingly or unknowingly, made a mess of the Nazi A-bomb program. They were *far* from a bomb, and they were far from even having the right idea of how to even design a proper bomb.

The "Nazi A-Bomb" is a field of study as filled with fiction as the "Nazi flying saucer" field.

[Barrington Bond]

Look no further than the Littleboy bomb! According to the book I read (boy did my sides ache while reading that one...) it was a Nazi weapon that the Americans didn't need to test (like Fatman) because it had already been tested! It also mentioned the Japanese testing their own bomb in Korea...

One little translation problem gave me a small chuckle - the Singer "Antipodes" bomber...

Regards,
Barry

[Jemiba]

Some time ago there were some stories about "A-bomb tests during WW II
in Thuringia/Germany", but AFAIK the best description of it is the one given
by Orionblamblam !   
But I think, boxkite can give more first-hand details about this affair .

[archipeppe]

Some time ago there were some stories about "A-bomb tests during WW II
in Thuringia/Germany", but AFAIK the best description of it is the one given
by Orionblamblam !   
But I think, boxkite can give more first-hand details about this affair .

It was originated by an Italian journalist, Luigi Romersa, he claimed (in several books, articles and interviews) to be eyewitness of, at least, an atomic test in Rugen island (near Peenemunde).
He also claimed to be sent by Mussolini to make a report about the new (at that times) top secret weapons of Nazi Germany.

I've read his book that skillfully mixes reality (Me 162 and 262, Arado Blitz and others) with nonsense like V7, Vril and also Nazi A Bombs.

Finally, I full agree on what Scott writes about that....

[Michel Van]

the Internet is full of PURE BULLSHIT about Nazi A-bomb

let see some of littel facts who are real.

The Real Facts:
The Nazi had next to Heisenberg "Uranprojekt" also Several A-bomb Project
(several German TV Doku co worker of Heisenberg like Friedrich von Weizsäcker und Karl Wirtz
 say "yes we [III Reich] workt on Atomic Bomb")

the Heereswaffenamt had one H-bomb Program.

one "Uranverein" under Command of Herman Göring Reichsluftfahrtministerium

most of them are from SS under command of Dr Hans Kammler
(He in charge of the V-2 missile, the Mittelwerk facility, Messerschmitt Me 262 programme.)
but he was also „Sonderbeauftragter des Führers für Strahlenwaffen“
"Envoy of the Fuhrers for Energy Weapons"

According to a statement by Werner Grothmann, the Chefadjutanten Heinrich Himmler,
had Kammlers since 1943 a Coordinating Buro for the SS's nuclear program.

In 1943 Burkhard Heim met Heisenberg and told him of his plan to use chemical implosion to facilitate an atomic explosion.
This design was based on his idea he developed for a 'clean' hydrogen bomb when Heim was 18.
Heisenberg was impressed by Heim's knowledge, but thought the approach would be impractical.

After 1944 July 22 all Nucklear programs came in hands of SS and Obergruppenführer Kammler

In autumn 1944 talks were held between the Leiter der Einsatzleitung Heeresartillerieabteilung 709,
Lieutenant Colonel Tröller, and SS-Obergruppenführer Kammler on the use of rocket-»Rheinbote«
for a nuclear payload. !

in 1945 March 4 happens a very big exposion on Military training ground in Ohrdruf (Thuringia)
a lot People were witnesses to the explosion outside the  Military training ground
an say it was the bigges they sah on that trainig ground ever.

At the Nuremberg Trials in 1946 Nazi munitions minister Albert Speer was questioned by prosecutors about the Ohrdruf blast.

in 1952, Erich Schumann, Hans Winkhaus, and Walter Trinks, three war-time members of the Heereswaffenamt, tried to get patents for the shaped charge thermonuclear fusion bomb that the Heereswaffenamt had been researching on during the war !

those info are not Confirmed, but Fits with first recording.

Not Confirmed data
On 1944 October 12  was on the peninsula Rügener a gigantic explosion.
observes by SS and diplomats from Italy, Japan (inside a Bunker)
the SS explane to diplomats, this one of the new "Wunderwaffen"
so Luigi Romersa a Italian Reporter after some interview with Italy Diplomats

after Rainer Karlsch was on the peninsula Rügener the SS test with success a A-bomb

in 1945 March 4  SS-Obergruppenführer Kammler is one of the observers at a small nuclear test
on Military training ground in Ohrdruf (Thuringia).  
On the following day (March 5), he gave Heinrich Himmler in Hohenlychen personaly report about it.

Source
in 2005 the book "HITLERS BOMBE" by Rainer Karlsch is publish
 ISBN 3-421-05809-1 (sorry only in german Language, but good source)
It hit the German Historian like A-bomb  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitlers_Bombe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nuclear_energy_project


my Analyses:
the German have bulid radiological weapon (a dirty bomb) not a A-bomb or H-bomb
see Kammler demands for rocket-»Rheinbote« for a nuclear payload.
This Missile ist to smal for carring a Nuke, but can bring deadly radiactive dust to enermy.

wat about the SS test on the peninsula Rügener and in Ohrdruf ?

wen Rügene Test were real
I think that in Rügene the SS fool the Diplomats with Propoganda
that was no A-Bomb but big Pile of Explosive.

however the Ohrdruf explosion not fit in that Propoganda "stunt"
ca be that SS testet another wapon a Thermobaric weapon ? (aka vacuum bombs or fuel-air munitions)

[Justo Miranda]

Hi,

I have five different reasons to think that there was no Nazi A-Bomb.

1.   German scientists did not believe that the A-Bomb could be manufactured with the means available within the III Reich.
2.   When they were in prison in England after the war in Europe, they were extraordinarily surprised to know about the Hiroshima explosion
3.   All the realistic efforts made on nuclear research in wartime were aimed to obtain a power source to propel submarines. The nuclear reactors (Uran Maschinen) of  Dahlem and Haigerloch were built to that purpose.
4.   The supposed ‘error’ of Heisenberg regarding the required amount of uranium for the bomb, was undoubtedly intentional.
The reason is that there was not enough uranium in the III Reich to make this type of research credible. The small stocks of the mineral -captured in Belgium- and of pechblenda -extracted from the Bohemia mines-, should be refined in a big industrial facility that was to be constructed with a budget of just 350,000 Reichmarks!
Besides, all reserves of pure graphite were to be kept for the nozzle rudders of the V-2.
5.   The German scientific authorities of the time were not very bright in general and, in great part, owed their academic position to the expulsion of many scientific Jews. The “quanta” theory and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle were difficult to understand and believe for them. Would they dare to ask Herr Hitler to forget the V-Weapons in favor of an extremely expensive project that could very easily not work?
6.   As for the tests performed in Rügener, they might have well been on a fuel-air bomb designed to disable the Allies ‘boxes’ of bombers.
The spray was formed by different combinations of coal powder, hydrogen, ethylene, petrol, Butan-Propane 50/50 and the “Myrol” compound based on vinylic ethers and aluminum powder.
As per some authors, the gases derived from the combustion were toxic and violated the Geneva Convention agreements, something that the Germans of 1945 could not afford, having their own cities exposed to hundred of Allied bombers.

[Orionblamblam]

4.   The supposed ‘error’ of Heisenberg regarding the required amount of uranium for the bomb, was undoubtedly intentional.

Since Heisenberg never made it plain, it's impossible to say. However, given that Heisenberg went from "a small bomb is impossible" to "here's how you design a small bomb" in very short order after the announcement of Hiroshime, it's a good possibility. A discussion of this:
http://technology.newscientist.com/channel/tech/nuclear/mg13518370.300

The crucial period in the Farm Hall documents covers the days just after the bombing of Hiroshima. Walther Gerlach, a physicist from Munich who was officially in charge of German research on uranium, acted like 'a defeated general', according to another interned scientist, Max von Laue. Later that night, Heisenberg and Otto Hahn of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute in Berlin discussed Gerlach's reaction. Heisenberg told Hahn that 'Gerlach was the only one of them who had really wanted a German victory'.

The conversation then took a remarkable turn as Heisenberg told Hahn how one might build an atomic bomb. He described how a sphere of uranium-235 with a diameter of 54 centimetres, weighing about a tonne, could sustain a chain reaction of 80 collisions, using 'very fast neutrons', generating 1024 neutrons. But only a quarter of a tonne would be necessary, he said, if the uranium were covered with a 'reflector'. The bombs could be made to explode at the right moment by bringing together two halves which were too small to generate a chain reaction when separated.

Also, regarding actual Nazi-nuke designs, here's about the best I've seen:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06/03/nazi_nuke_sketch/

A German historian who controversially claims that the Nazis tested a nuclear device in 1945 has now unearthed a sketch of a "Nazi nuke", as the BBC puts it.

Rainer Karlsch's book Hitlers Bombe (Hitler's Bomb) rather sensationally suggests that German scientists detonated several nuclear bombs, the last in Thuringia on 3 March 1945. According to Karlsch, this destroyed around 500 square miles and killed several hundred POWs and concentration camp inmates.
....
The new sketch - discovered in an undated report on German wartime nuclear research believed to have been compiled shortly after the end of the war in Europe - appears to show a plutonium device. Karlsch admits that the drawing is a simple schematic and does not prove the Nazis were building, or close to building a similar device.

It must be noted that this is a *post* *war* sketch, which means US/UK nuke knowledge could be a part of it... and I'm not sure if the provenance of the sketch in question ahs ever really been confirmed.

[Michel Van]

the German Atomic Bomb program was a total Chaos

a dosend groups work with differed approach and against each other
Army, Airforce and SS
only 22 July 1944 all of those Programs came under SS-order of Dr Hans Kammler

another problem was Heavy Water D2O for experiment
the only source for Nazi was in Norway
but British agents destroy the Factory in James Bond style 
and sank a Boat with last cargo of D2O
(the D2O for Manhattan program came from Canada)

Belgium and Uran
in WW2 there was only one country selling Uran to open market: Belgium
better say its form they colony Kongo

the Uran for Manhattan Project came from Belgium Kongo.

note on Belgium in WW2
the country was divided two parts
the Pro Nazi (most nederlands Vlaamish) and Resistance (most french Wallon)

i demand my self could be that Belgium Pro Nazi
manage to get some Uran from Kongo for SS A-bomb program ?

[Speedy]

Hi

I have some "chemical" comments about:

i demand my self could be that Belgium Pro Nazi
manage to get some Uran from Kongo for SS A-bomb program ?

There's no problem to get metallic uranium. It isn't very rare metal. Germans controlled some uranium ore mines in Europe, for example in Czechoslovakia and Poland.
But to get metallic uranium is far far not enough for bomb. Natural uranium is a mix of uranium isotopes: main is U238 (about 99,3%), incapable of chain reaction and only about 0,7% is U235, needed for nuclear technology purposes. For uranium bomb it's necessary to get material containing about 90% or more of U235, so-called "enriched uranium". To obtain this, a special processing is needed, namely "enrichment" or isotope separation process. These process are most difficult processes in chemical industry, because of chemical and physical properties of isotopes are almost identical and it's very tricky to invent a method that could use these minor differences for separation. For Manhattan Project Americans build a big factory in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, that was city-size and consuming enormous amount of electric power (more than New York city). Nazis simply can't build similar factory in top-secrecy and they are also short of electric power.
Other way is to enriched uranium only to some percent (2-3% U235) level and using this as nuclear fuel in reactor. One of by-products arising in the "burning" process is a plutonium, namely Pu239 isotope, that also could be used as nuclear explosive (it's even better than U235).(There is one more problem with Pu240 isotope but my English is a little too poor to explain this).  And extracting plutonium from used fuel elements is much easier than isotope separation process. But Germans also can't build fully functioning nuclear reactor. And even if they could run reactor in the end period of war there was no time to arise enough plutonium for bomb.

[McTodd]

There's an almost equal amount of rubbish that's been published in recent years about a Japanese A-bomb, even including frankly unbelievable claims that they detonated one off the Korean coast in August 1945. These claims seem to be politically motivated by a desire to assuage the guilt of Hiroshima and Nagasaki by 'proving' that a race for the Bomb was on with Japan.

Oneof the worst offenders is Robert Wilcox, and his political motivation is clear from this interview quote (http://greyfalcon.us/the%20U.htm):

Japan has always been looked at as the victim of the bomb. And so a lot of people didn't like the book. To be very base about it, there is a whole liberal element that does not want Japan to look like anything but the victim. But the fact is the Japanese tried very hard to make the bomb and would have dropped it.

One of the most persistent, and annoying, claims involves the Germans and the submarine U234, with which I suspect most here will be familiar. Typical is this webpage (http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/u234.html).

This quote is priceless:

The Uranium carried by U-234 was allegedly enough to make two atomic bombs, 1235 pounds of 77 percent pure uranium oxide, it was destined for the Japanese atomic bomb programme. The U-235 (Uranium-235) was taken away to Los Alamos, forming part of the payload of the bomb that fell on Hiroshima. So, the uranium intended for the production of a Japanese Bomb arrived in due course, but in a way no person in Japan could have imagined in his wildest nightmares!

[Trident]

Generally, I agree with Orionblamblam's view. Regarding supposed nuclear tests in Germany, would certain fission products with a long half-life not be traceable at the alleged sites even today?

[Orionblamblam]

Generally, I agree with Orionblamblam's view. Regarding supposed nuclear tests in Germany, would certain fission products with a long half-life not be traceable at the alleged sites even today?

You damned betcha. The Trinity Test Site in New Mexico is open for visitors for *one* *day* *per* *year.* That's because the place is still radioactive (this sorta thing happens when you pop off a nuke within a few dozen feet of the ground, close enough to activate the *dirt*), and will remain so for quite a long time. Had the Japanese set off a nuke in Korea, or the Germans nuked some Baltic island, there'd be no hiding it.

[Artie Bob]

There is actually some pretty good published material on the WWII German nuclear programs, often lost in the myths and misinformation pile of cxxp of .  To give an accurate detailed analysis would take a lot more space than I believe is available here.
But, here are a few items that IMHO can be documented pretty well.

1. Making a fission bomb  is not tremendously difficult.  Making a compact high yield device is considerably more difficult.
2. Producing fissile grade material is extremely difficult.  As we used to say, "If it were easy everybody would do it!".  The reason the number of nuclear club members has not grown a lot larger is probably the result of number 2 and the reason that neither the German or Japanese programs really got very far.
3. It is pretty certain that Heisenberg really did want to make a bomb, acccording to documents now available from archives of Bohr, Heisenberg's mentor.  It was probably the offer for Bohr (an offer which he might not have been able to refuse) to assist Heisenberg on a Nazi bomb that precipitated his departure from Europe in the middle of the war. Heisenberg, although a brilliant theorist, was apparently not at the same level as an experimenter.  Bohr's other protege, Enrico Fermi, was that rare combination of a brilliant theorist and a innovative hands on experimenter.  The USA got the better of this pair when he fled Italy in fear of his Jewish wife's treatment.
4.  The Belgian company controlling Uranium mines in the Congo, shut the mines down when the winds of war began to rise in 1939.  However, this was not before shipments of Uranium were made to the USA, put in storage, and made available to the US government during the war.  IMHO, this is one of the most remarkable stories related to the nuclear bomb program, as it apparently was done by a Belgian national on his own personal innitiative and came as a complete surprise to all involved in the USA nuclear project.  IIRC, this was the source of material for the Chicago reactor (Fermi's baby).

I hope these items were of interest, the complete story of the WW II nuclear projects is to my mind, one of the most fascinating accounts, but far beyond the scope of this site.  Also, my personal opinion is when a site primarily focused on hardware strays into history, the result is almost always bad history.

Best regards,

Artie Bob