WWII Escort Carriers

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fredymac

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Does anyone know if any first-generation jets (Fireball, FJ Fury...) have ever operated from escort aircraft carriers ?
 
Most escort carriers were too small and slow even for F6F and F4U fighter operations. In fact, the F8F was designed to combine the F4F size and F6F performance to replace the FM-2 Wildcat onboard CVE as well as the F6F in the CV.

Here there's a nice article from forum member Tommy Thomason

thanlont.blogspot.com

Hellcats on CVEs

The CVE was an escort carrier built, in the beginning, on an oiler or merchant-ship hull. They had the smallest flight decks and slowest top...
thanlont.blogspot.com thanlont.blogspot.com

"Commencement Bay-class CVEs were considered big enough and fast enough for Vought F4U Corsair and Grumman AF Guardian operation."

I've never heard about jet fighter operating from CVE
 
Antonio said:
Most escort carriers were too small and slow even for F6F and F4U fighter operations.
Click to expand...
For the very little ones, yes. But others, such as the Commencement Bay class, could operate F4Us & AF Guardians.
Otherwise, my research has enabled me to find that FR Fireballs have been operated from various escort-carriers, including the USS Bairoko (CVE-115), the USS Charger (CVE-30), the USS Wake Island (CVE-65), the USS Badoeng Strait (CVE-116) and the USS Rendova (CVE-114).
But the FR Fireball was not a real jet aircraft.
US Navy FR-1 lanching on Rendova (CVE-116) (March-June 1947).jpg
 
Commencement Bay class was the most capable CVE class of WWII but wasn't enough for jet era fighters. (Length flight deck 153 m Max speed: 19 knots)
The Royal Navy 1942 Light Fleet Carrier were the smallest design suited for jet aircraft operations. (Length flight deck 210 m Max speed: 25 knots)
 
Antonio said:
Commencement Bay class was the most capable CVE class of WWII but wasn't enough for jet era fighters. (Length flight deck 153 m Max speed: 19 knots)
The Royal Navy 1942 Light Fleet Carrier were the smallest design suited for jet aircraft operations. (Length flight deck 210 m Max speed: 25 knots)
Click to expand...
I was surprised to discover that the USS Saipan (CVL-48) operated FH-1 Phantoms of VF-17A in 1948.
It was around 200m long, making it the smallest aircraft carrier to have operated jets.
The Saipan had a long career as an aircraft carrier, until October 1957. But I have not found any other jet operations aboard her other than that of VF-17A.
US Navy FH-1 of VF-17A during qualifications on Saipan (CVL-48) (May 1948).jpg US Navy FH-1 of VF-17A on USS Saipan (CVL-48) (6 May 1948).jpg
USS Saipan (CVL-48) with eight FH-1 of VF-17A (c May 1948).jpg

The Saipan badge showed that it had operated jets !
 

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saipan-class_aircraft_carrier

Just like the smaller Independance class (and like the bigger Essex-class), they could do 30 kt. When all the jeep / escort carriers were 19 kt or 21 kt. The higher speed must have helped when handling jets.

France got one Colossus (Arromanches) and two Independances (Lafayette et Bois Belleau) plus a licence to build 113 Sea Venoms, rebranded Aquilons.
Alas, in a typical Murphy Law fashion, Aquilons had to be land based. As Arromanches had the correct deck length (200 m +) but was too slow (24 kt) and the Independances were the opposite: fast enough (30 kt) but too short (180 m - something).

I wonder why none of the two Saipans were ever exported ?
 
Archibald said:
As Arromanches had the correct deck length (200 m +) but was too slow (24 kt)
Click to expand...
Where did you get the information that the Arro was limited to 24kt ?
The other Colossus/Majestic that operate jets could go much faster !
To catapult the CM-175s, it needed more speed than that.
 
Archibald said:
I wonder why none of the two Saipans were ever exported ?
Click to expand...

Because the USN recognized that they were the most useful of the small carrier remnants from WW2, if only for their relatively large open hangar space and clear decks, which made them easier to convert to communications and command roles.
 
Antonio said:
Most escort carriers were too small and slow even for F6F and F4U fighter operations. In fact, the F8F was designed to combine the F4F size and F6F performance to replace the FM-2 Wildcat onboard CVE as well as the F6F in the CV.


I've never heard about jet fighter operating from CVE
Click to expand...

The CVE HMS Emperor was the first RN carrier to operate the Hellcat starting in Nov 1943. She operated on the Gibraltar convoy runs, then off Norway, Southern France and the Aegean in 1944 before, in 1945 heading for the Indian Ocean, She was joined by Ameer, Khedive, Shah, Empress & Pursuer while Ruler & Speaker joined the BPF with Hellcat squadrons. Arbiter & Slinger worked up Corsair squadrons and took them to join the BPF, although ultimately they were put ashore to allow the carriers to be used in a replanishment role.

These were Bogue class ships but the RN modified them to slightly extend their flight decks by about 10ft.

The Casablanca class USS Kasaan Bay (CVE-69) and Tulagi (CVE-72) operated the Hellcat VF-74 and VOF-1 respectively in the Med in 1944 during Operation Dragoon. VF(N)-74 had been aboard Kasaan Bay but was put ashore for the duration of the Operation.

VF-66 with the Ryan FR-1 Fireball was scheduled to be ready to deploy on the Commencement Bay class CVE-108 USS Kula Gulf by 1 Oct 1945. These transferred to VF-41 in Oct and one of its aircraft landed on the Casablanca class CVE-65 Wake Island on 6 Nov 1945 but ended up in the barrier. Its piston engine had failed so it carried out an unplanned emergency landing under jet power. But the Fireball was not a pure jet.
 
Antonio said:
Commencement Bay class was the most capable CVE class of WWII but wasn't enough for jet era fighters. (Length flight deck 153 m Max speed: 19 knots)
The Royal Navy 1942 Light Fleet Carrier were the smallest design suited for jet aircraft operations. (Length flight deck 210 m Max speed: 25 knots)
Click to expand...
None of the USN's CVE or CVL types were ever fitted with a steam catapult - their hydraulic catapults launched light aircraft at fairly low speeds.
 
F.L. said:
Where did you get the information that the Arro was limited to 24kt ?
The other Colossus/Majestic that operate jets could go much faster !
To catapult the CM-175s, it needed more speed than that.
Click to expand...
As noted by Archibald, 25 knots was the top speed of the original Colossus & Majestic designs - and the modernized ones that weighed more saw their top speeds drop to 24 or 23 knots.

The larger and newer Centaur class CVL had a top speed of 28 knots.
 
I checked, the Aquilons of 11F and 16F were land based. Arromanches catapults were too weak for them. Only in 1960 did they touched down on a carrier: the brand new Clemenceau.
 
I heard in this video that in the 50s there were plans to transform the Saipan (CVL-48) into a training aircraft carrier with an angled deck.
Has anyone ever heard of this ?

uss saipan wow at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.
duckduckgo.com duckduckgo.com
 
F.L. said:
I heard in this video that in the 50s there were plans to transform the Saipan (CVL-48) into a training aircraft carrier with an angled deck.
Has anyone ever heard of this ?

uss saipan wow at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.
duckduckgo.com duckduckgo.com
Click to expand...

Friedman "US Carriers" book has a brief note that this was considered around 1956/57 and says this:-

"No design work appears to have been done, although an SCB project number was assigned."

He doesn't say what that SCB number was.
 
Antonio said:
Most escort carriers were too small and slow even for F6F and F4U fighter operations. In fact, the F8F was designed to combine the F4F size and F6F performance to replace the FM-2 Wildcat onboard CVE as well as the F6F in the CV.

Here there's a nice article from forum member Tommy Thomason

thanlont.blogspot.com

Hellcats on CVEs

The CVE was an escort carrier built, in the beginning, on an oiler or merchant-ship hull. They had the smallest flight decks and slowest top...
thanlont.blogspot.com thanlont.blogspot.com

"Commencement Bay-class CVEs were considered big enough and fast enough for Vought F4U Corsair and Grumman AF Guardian operation."

I've never heard about jet fighter operating from CVE
Click to expand...
Were the Sangamon and Commencement Bay class CVEs large enough for the Douglas AD / A-1 Skyraider or Martin AM Mauler?
 
Christopher Wang said:
Were the Sangamon and Commencement Bay class CVEs large enough for the Douglas AD / A-1 Skyraider or Martin AM Mauler?
Click to expand...
Yes.
The Commencement Bay class operated the Grumman Guardian, which was the largest single engined piston engined aircraft used on carriers, and which was roughly the same size and weight as the twin engined Grumman Tracker.
 
kaiserbill said:
Yes.
The Commencement Bay class operated the Grumman Guardian, which was the largest single engined piston engined aircraft used on carriers, and which was roughly the same size and weight as the twin engined Grumman Tracker.
Click to expand...
The Commencement Bay-class carrier USS Point Cruz (CVE-119) also operated S2F-1 Trackers of Antisubmarine Squadron (VS) 25.
USS Point Cruz (CVE-119) with HO4S-3S of HS-4 & S2F-1 ov VS-25 (25 June 1955).jpg USS Point Cruz (CVE-119) with HO4S-3S of HS-4 & S2F-1 ov VS-25 (January 1955).jpg
 

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