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Author Topic: Twin Engined Canon-Fighter Model to ID  (Read 3079 times)

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Twin Engined Canon-Fighter Model to ID
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2017, 07:46:48 pm »
Looking again at Hesham's 'cannon fighter', I am even less convinced that this is a Bell concept.

I've done a crude, highly speculative plan view of the Airacuda to contrast with the apparent outline of the l'Ala d-Italia 'cannon fighter'. Other than general layout, there seems to me to be very few similarities.

By contrast with the Bell design, this 'cannon fighter' has a circular- or near-circular fuselage section. To me, the wings have a contemporary Lockheed feel (think Model 10 Electra). The tailplane is also quite different from the Bell - the horizontal tails are set quite far back with no cutouts for rudder movement, and the fuselage seems to terminate in a cone.

The man in the photo has a superficial resemblance to Lockheed's Hall Hibbard. Kelly Johnson preferred twin tails but the horizontal tail placement on his single-tailled Model 22 variants is the same. Not a strong argument, I know ...  :P

Offline Schneiderman

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Re: Twin Engined Canon-Fighter Model to ID
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2017, 11:28:48 pm »
I also have doubts now about any association with Bell Aircraft. The article only talks about 'the designer' with no mention of Bell or any other company, the photo does not reference Bell as the source and the man in the photo remains unidentified, but is not Larry Bell.  I'm beginning to think that it is not a design by one of the major aircraft manufacturers and more likely either a small company or just a lone inventor.
The solution has to be amongst the US patents or in one of the US aviation magazines. Still searching

Offline lark

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Re: Twin Engined Canon-Fighter Model to ID
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2017, 05:55:39 am »
Magazine article October 1939.
Very well probable that model , fits with the model 9 attack aircraft based on the Airacuda.
The model 9 , 10a and 10b attack aircraft were not designed by Woods .

Models of those days were no so accurate compared with the curent ones I think..
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 06:14:48 am by lark »

Offline hesham

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Re: Twin Engined Canon-Fighter Model to ID
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2017, 06:59:49 am »
Many thanks my dear Lark,

I also agree with that,but if we expand our search,we can suggest that,maybe
it was from Vultee,specially it had a Project looks like it ?.

Offline ACResearcher

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Re: Twin Engined Canon-Fighter Model to ID
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2017, 08:23:58 am »
Hesham, your most recent post (above) is quite interesting. What is the source of the drawing? Can I get a copy of the 3-view, ideally in a larger size?

Thanks in advance.

AlanG

Offline Schneiderman

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Re: Twin Engined Canon-Fighter Model to ID
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2017, 09:13:41 am »
Its probably a good idea if we look at the whole article, brief though it is.
The aircraft is armed with a single 37mm cannon capable of 100 rounds per minute, and is intended, apparently, as an interceptor to destroy more conventional multi-gun fighters. That does not sound like a concept which would have been developed by a major aircraft company, multi-gun designs were favoured by all air forces, and the article also doubts whether it would have been successful idea. The man in the photo is only referred to as "the inventor".

Offline CiTrus90

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Re: Twin Engined Canon-Fighter Model to ID
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2017, 10:01:42 am »
I'll translate it, just in case it may be of some help.

"Cannons on board!

This puzzled gentleman, holding a small aircraft in his left hand and a big bullet in his right, is an inventor. But he isn't - like a simpleton could think -  the one who invented the bullets bigger than the aircraft they have to hit, or vice versa; he's the inventor of the "aerocannoniere" [loosely translatable as "cannon fighter"]. The model he's holding up is, indeed, that of a twin engined aircraft that should be armed with a 37mm cannon, capable of a firing rate of 100 rpm. By his word, "fighters" and "fight(er)" [this is just my interpretation but there seems to be some overlapping here, apparently the term "caccia" is meant to be used in regards to a small, agile, single seat fighter, while "combattimento" should be used for a heavier two seat aircraft, sort of like a zerstörer?], even those armed with eight 12 or 14mm machine guns, should get pulverized. But we think that against a hundred 37mm shells, even a couple thousand bullets with smaller caliber and fired at the same time, can't be neglected."

Back in the pre-war period there was some interest for these sort of "cruiser fighters/bomber destroyers", see here a list for some of them: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7951.0.html

« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 12:28:28 pm by CiTrus90 »
Regards.

L. Landino

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Twin Engined Canon-Fighter Model to ID
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2017, 10:39:23 am »
Could the cannon mentioned be the T9?
To the Stars

Offline Schneiderman

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Re: Twin Engined Canon-Fighter Model to ID
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2017, 10:56:20 am »
T9? That's the Express bus to Cardiff Airport  ;D

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Twin Engined Canon-Fighter Model to ID
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2017, 11:08:45 am »
I wondered about Vultee too ... which got me wondering about submissions to Circular Proposal X-608. This 'aerocannoniere' doesn't look anything like the known types - the Vultee XP1015 or the twin-boomed Lockheed Model 22 or Hughes D-2. That leaves Boeing, Consolidated, Curtiss, and Douglas.

... The model 9 , 10a and 10b attack aircraft were not designed by Woods .

lark: In your scan from the Schiffer book Cobra! (posted by Skyblazer in the Designations section), those Bell models (plus the Model 17) were attributed to "J.Strickler".  That would be Bell engineer and test pilot John F. Strickler Jr.  So, does anyone know what Jack Strickler looked like back in the day?

Grey Havoc: The cannon could well be the 37 mm T9 (although the round shown in the l'Ala d'Italia photo has a fairly distinct bottleneck, whereas the neck on the T9/M4's 37x145mmR casing is quite subtle). Speaking of the T9, could our 'aerocannoniere' be a generic concept study by someone involved with the design or production of the cannon ... ie:  the Browning Arms Company or Oldsmobile?

Offline CiTrus90

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Re: Twin Engined Canon-Fighter Model to ID
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2017, 12:19:17 pm »
Could the cannon mentioned be the T9?

Or it could be a 37 mm M9 autocannon, with 37×223mmSR cartridge?

On this page there are some pictures of similar shells -->http://oldguns.net/catho.htm

Regards.

L. Landino

Offline hesham

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Re: Twin Engined Canon-Fighter Model to ID
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2017, 01:07:01 pm »
Useful analysis my dears,

and for Jack Strikler,here is a total picture to Bell team or part of it and he
was in the view in 1947.

Offline lark

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Re: Twin Engined Canon-Fighter Model to ID
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2017, 02:08:56 pm »
J.Strickler was according to the 'Cobra' list project engineer
for the Bell model 9 and 10a & 10b.
He seems not the man with the model on the photo...

I still think that the caption in Bill Norton's book showing the
so called  model 17 is not correct. The drawing fits much more to
the description (see Cobra book) for the model 10.



Offline sienar

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Re: Twin Engined Canon-Fighter Model to ID
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2017, 08:30:46 pm »
Hope I'm not muddying the waters here too much

American Armament Corporation worked on several designs for 37mm canons for aircraft during the 1930s.  They also gave suggestions for how these canons should be employed in an aircraft, such as a defensive turret and single canon mounted in the nose on a movable mount. Furthermore, they even went through the effort of creating illustrations of said installations in a hypothetical bomber.

The first scan of this bomber is from; http://www.luftfahrt-bibliothek.de/zeitschrift-flugsport-oskar-ursinus-luftsport-luftfahrt-luftverkehr/luftsport-luftfahrt-luftverkehr-flugsport-1936/zeitschrift-flugsport-1936-luftsport-luftverkehr-luftfahrt.htm

The next two are from;http://www.luftfahrt-bibliothek.de/zeitschrift-flugsport-oskar-ursinus-luftsport-luftfahrt-luftverkehr/luftsport-luftfahrt-luftverkehr-flugsport-1938/zeitschrift-flugsport-1939-luftsport-luftverkehr-luftfahrt.htm

Now looking into this a bit further I managed to find some images of the round this AAC canon used. Comparing images of it and the M4 round vs the mystery photo in this thread makes me think the mystery aircraft has an AAC 37mm in it. The shoulder of the cartridge is unlike an M4 round, but looks quite similar to the AAC. Maybe a gun expert could do a better job of ID'ing it?

Its also worth noting that some sources say the airacuda was designed for the AAC 37mm originally. There are some other sources that say 5 manufacturers were seriously considering this armament, but unfortunately no list of the interest clients.

Lastly is a page from an old issue of flight, available here;https://www.scribd.com/document/193059280/1936-3454

It mentions that the gun was 100rpm, just like our mystery photo caption

EDIT: added a quick comparison image. Personally I'd bet this is an AAC concept aircraft for demonstrating their weapon mount/idea.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 08:46:33 pm by sienar »

Offline hesham

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Re: Twin Engined Canon-Fighter Model to ID
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2017, 04:15:39 am »
OK my dear Lark,

and maybe it was Bell Model-10,and good research Sienar.