Paris in the news again...

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Untasted link, eyewitness report ongoing

http://www.france24.com/en/20151113-several-simultaneous-shootings-paris-casualties-reported#

(you need to click the "watch live" button top left)
 
Actually about 45 dead from the café shootings, about 60 more severely wounded.
Unfortunately, over 100 more people were killed in the Bataclan concert hall.

EDIT: latest reports say the death count at Le Bataclan was "only" 80.
 
Yeah, this'n's gonna be a mess. I suspect the death toll is going to be *all* over the place for the next day or so, and will finally settle on A Really Big Number.

France has apparently closed its borders (but flights are still going in and out at the moment).

A talking head on CNN was ulcerating a little while back about whether the murderers had a bunch of GoPro cameras and if we should expect one heck of a propaganda video in the near future.
 
Islamic State?


"Islamic State Supporters 'Celebrate' Paris Attacks on Social Media"
By Lucy Westcott 11/13/15 at 6:27 PM

Source:
http://www.newsweek.com/islamic-state-supporters-celebrate-paris-attacks-social-media-394199
 
France has close it border and order State of national emergency over entire Nation

Current Numbers of Deads 140

Next entire Mobilisation of Police forces, now also the Military in France to get Situation under contole
 
Not necessarily IS. Remember that Charlie Hebdo was claimed by Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. This feels like their style.
 
I suppose so. Thing is that these incidents aren't perpetrated by organized groups, with paid-up memberships and ID cards and secret handshakes and such; any schmoe can do something horrible and claim to have done it for IS or AQ. Rarely see the Godzilla Fan Club taking credit, I'll note.
 
After lates news Report

Deads 155
Woundet around 200

All terrorist are Death, einher shoot By Police or Blow them Self up as bomb Carrier.
Reasion for attack were the terrorst sreaming "Payback for france Military involment in syria and Iraq"
 
Orionblamblam said:
I suppose so. Thing is that these incidents aren't perpetrated by organized groups, with paid-up memberships and ID cards and secret handshakes and such; any schmoe can do something horrible and claim to have done it for IS or AQ. Rarely see the Godzilla Fan Club taking credit, I'll note.
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I agree. It is more like "I'm going to do something, and you've got a famous brand, and my ideological position is close enough you won't deny it" than something organised by a shadowy network of supervillians. On the whole, it is just sadly tragic and pointless. It is odd how people don't see that.
 
Orionblamblam said:
I suppose so. Thing is that these incidents aren't perpetrated by organized groups, with paid-up memberships and ID cards and secret handshakes and such; any schmoe can do something horrible and claim to have done it for IS or AQ. Rarely see the Godzilla Fan Club taking credit, I'll note.
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The complex attacks like this, Mumbai, and even on a lesser scale the Hebdo and associated attacks, generally are planned by a central organization like AQ. They're different is scope ad complexity from the self-directed attacks like Boston and Garland, TX, where the attackers may have claimed affiliation but had no preexisting relationship with a central group.
 
Avimimus said:
Orionblamblam said:
I suppose so. Thing is that these incidents aren't perpetrated by organized groups, with paid-up memberships and ID cards and secret handshakes and such; any schmoe can do something horrible and claim to have done it for IS or AQ. Rarely see the Godzilla Fan Club taking credit, I'll note.
Click to expand...

I agree. It is more like "I'm going to do something, and you've got a famous brand, and my ideological position is close enough you won't deny it" than something organised by a shadowy network of supervillians. On the whole, it is just sadly tragic and pointless. It is odd how people don't see that.
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I don't know that it's completely pointless, certainly not from the fundamentalists point of view. The aim is to drive a wedge into society, to split it down the cultural and religious lines if possible and then recruit more troops from the newly oppressed and disaffected minorities. Rinse and repeat. It's cheap and extremely effective. Governments are left in a cleft stick between protecting their citizens by cracking down on minorities and leaving themselves open to more attacks. It's like Orion pointed out though, they're more likely to be much more low tech. They won't be on the phone networks or internet so they won't be able to track or backtrack them that way either, we've certainly taught them that in Iraq/Afghanistan/Syria/Lebanon/Gaza/etc. Hopefully the French can backtrack their logistics to a clear point of origin, work out who's supplying these bastards.
 
JeffB said:
Hopefully the French can backtrack their logistics to a clear point of origin, work out who's supplying these bastards.
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Problem: the supplies they use are things like AK-47s and simple explosives. These can be obtained virtually anywhere. Even if the French found out where they got their bombs, guns and bullets, there'll be a hundred other suppliers ready to sell the same items to the next nutjob.
 
When the U.S. invaded Iraq (big Bush) it opened a "can of worms" it thought it had closed. When the U.S. re-invaded Iraq (little Bush - to finish the job daddy had started) it opened an infinity of terror from which there's no end in sight. -SP
 
Orionblamblam said:
JeffB said:
Hopefully the French can backtrack their logistics to a clear point of origin, work out who's supplying these bastards.
Click to expand...

Problem: the supplies they use are things like AK-47s and simple explosives. These can be obtained virtually anywhere. Even if the French found out where they got their bombs, guns and bullets, there'll be a hundred other suppliers ready to sell the same items to the next nutjob.
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You're right of course, it's probably a pretty straight forward thing to smuggle them across from North Africa or even through Turkey/Greece mixed in with the flood of refugees.
 
Steve Pace said:
When the U.S. invaded Iraq (big Bush) it opened a "can of worms" it thought it had closed. When the U.S. re-invaded Iraq (little Bush - to finish the job daddy had started) it opened an infinity of terror from which there's no end in sight. -SP
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Is that why there had been no Islamic motivated terror attacks before 2003? And I seem to recall France having nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq. Even being so against it French Fries (which were invented in Flanders by Sephardi Jews) were even renamed in some parts of the USA.

If anything the OIF campaign probably greatly reduced the number of terror attacks on western targets outside of the Middle East. By consuming much of the effort internally and focusing Sunni onto Shia (and vice versa).

Really there is only one person or group of persons to blame for these attacks. And that is those Muslims who persist in believing and advocating for violent takeover of most if not all of the world's states and running them according to their interpretation of their religion. Maybe we can also heap some blame on those useful idiots who seem to find no shortage of excuses for this simple, objective attribution of responsibility.
 
Abraham Gubler said:
Steve Pace said:
When the U.S. invaded Iraq (big Bush) it opened a "can of worms" it thought it had closed. When the U.S. re-invaded Iraq (little Bush - to finish the job daddy had started) it opened an infinity of terror from which there's no end in sight. -SP
Click to expand...

Is that why there had been no Islamic motivated terror attacks before 2003? And I seem to recall France having nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq. Even being so against it French Fries (which were invented in Flanders by Sephardi Jews) were even renamed in some parts of the USA.

If anything the OIF campaign probably greatly reduced the number of terror attacks on western targets outside of the Middle East. By consuming much of the effort internally and focusing Sunni onto Shia (and vice versa).

Really there is only one person or group of persons to blame for these attacks. And that is those Muslims who persist in believing and advocating for violent takeover of most if not all of the world's states and running them according to their interpretation of their religion. Maybe we can also heap some blame on those useful idiots who seem to find no shortage of excuses for this simple, objective attribution of responsibility.
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Well said.
 
Steve Pace said:
When the U.S. invaded Iraq (big Bush) it opened a "can of worms" it thought it had closed. When the U.S. re-invaded Iraq (little Bush - to finish the job daddy had started) it opened an infinity of terror from which there's no end in sight. -SP
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Seldom have I seen such wise words be written on this board.
 
Helmut Schmidt died last week.

Older readers may remember him as the German Chancellor who had the courage
to send in his people to rescue the passengers and crew of a Lufthansa plane but also the courage to ask for help from Britain (something that the Germans did not do in 1972 at the Munich Olympics).

He also realised that fighting his own terrorists in Germany (The Red Army Faction) could only be done by hard methodical Police and Intelligence work and by keeping within the law.

In the UK we know what internment without trial led to in Ulster. Again, it was patient hard work by the security forces that caught terrorists.

France and the rest of us will feel helpless this morning (I would love to ship all terrorists to the Arctic and let ISIL watch the You Tube videos of them dining with Ursus Maritimus-Polar Bears) but we know how to deal with this, its just sad and hard work
 
There was a very interesting survey by German journo.
His survey showed daesh leaders are ex-saddam secret services officers. they don't even care about religion. Their operatives schemes are the same as in saddam's days , terror, but this time they use religion to rally every idiots who can believe in their shit. And they know it would work after all the mess in Iraq , Syria and mid-east in general…
Funnily (well, if one can find these idiots funny…) , he reports a meeting between some al-qaida and daesh leaders some time ago. Al-qaida guys really believes in their extreme mystic motives, and after the meeting, they were p…off by daesh guys. Saying they are not "true moslems", just a "mafia"…
Basically was a meeting between dangerous loony bigots and dangerous loony gangsters…

...I'm Tired.
 
Were any of these terrorists .... Muslim?

Bonus question: on this dirt-ball who is the majority, christian's or Muslims? (Who is the MINORITY!...)

David
 
merriman said:
Were any of these terrorists .... Muslim?

Bonus question: on this dirt-ball who is the majority, christian's or Muslims? (Who is the MINORITY!...)

David
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So, what exactly are you proposing? World-wide genocide for all Muslims? No effort to differentiate between those Muslims who support Terrorism and those that don't? ::) ::)
 
Steve Pace said:
When the U.S. invaded Iraq (big Bush) it opened a "can of worms" it thought it had closed. When the U.S. re-invaded Iraq (little Bush - to finish the job daddy had started) it opened an infinity of terror from which there's no end in sight. -SP
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Not really. The U.S. has begun to attract attention by its meddling in the Lebanese Civil War (the meddling that Reagan stopped after the bombings against the Marine barracks because he concluded that people are too crazy in that region).

Step 2 was to have non-Muslim troops in Saudi-Arabia (the country of Mecca and Medina), and particularly to keep them there after the need was gone during 1991. UBL and his clique got all agitated about this, not about the Kuwait conflict. The U.S. could have dodged this bullet if it hadn't the habit of staying where it once set up its bases. Or at least they could have left Saudi Arabia and stayed in Qatar only as they eventually did long after 2001.

Step 3 was the hysterical overreaction to 9/11. The mess would have cooled down long ago had they limited the response to hunting AQ in cooperation with foreign authorities and to a short Afghanistan invasion (leaving the country in early 2002 instead of occupying it).
 
merriman said:
I'm proposing .... no, demanding! .... that those Muslim's who don't support terrorism stand tall, say so publicly and loudly, and root out the terrorist among them. In the absence of that, come the next 9-ll event here, EVERY American-Muslim will find himself, and his beloved family, baking under the hot sun in some American desert, behind razor-wire. We've done it before. We'll do it again. Here's our chance (their chance) to stop this thing in its tracks. At least over here -- in the Land of Opportunity.

David
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Demand all you like, it won't happen. What you are demanding is vigilantism, not the rule of law. America has hopefully learnt it's lesson from the internment of Japanese-Americans in WWII - they were citizens, they were entitled to the same protections as were every other American citizen. Attacking Muslims merely for being Muslims just plays into the hands of the Terrorists. It proves their views and drives more Muslims to their side, rather than keeping them on our side. BY all means, attack the Terrorists but leave the ordinary, everyday Muslims alone. Support them, rather than attack them.
 
Very sad news. Let's leave the politics aside for now and just offer our sympathies to the people of Paris.
 
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