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bobbymike

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http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20170820000215

S Korean nukes? Those that say "Hey paranoid warmongers learn to 'live' with N. Korean and Iranian nukes" should welcome stable democracies like S. Korea and Japan building their own deterrent force, right?
 
bobbymike said:
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20170820000215

S Korean nukes? Those that say "Hey paranoid warmongers learn to 'live' with N. Korean and Iranian nukes" should welcome stable democracies like S. Korea and Japan building their own deterrent force, right?

You know they won't. They'll whine and protest, all the while smugly pontificating about accepting Iranian and North Korean nukes. And they'll nod and pat themselves on the back about their progressive superiority while doing it.
 
sferrin said:
bobbymike said:
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20170820000215

S Korean nukes? Those that say "Hey paranoid warmongers learn to 'live' with N. Korean and Iranian nukes" should welcome stable democracies like S. Korea and Japan building their own deterrent force, right?

You know they won't. They'll whine and protest, all the while smugly pontificating about accepting Iranian and North Korean nukes. And they'll nod and pat themselves on the back about their progressive superiority while doing it.

And how are you going to realistically successfully strip North Korea of its nuclear weapons or prevent Iran achieveing nuclear weapons via military strikes/ and or invasions without (at minimum) hundreds of thousands of deaths of your allies (or your own) people?
What are chances that such actions would fail? And would be the implications if they did?

If what you propose by implication re: North Korea or Iran was actualy possible it would have been done years ago. For example would the last President Bush not have prioritised military intervention against these countries over Sadam Hussain's Iraq? Even the neo-cons could recognise that using military means to go after North Korea or Iran would be biting off more than they could chew.

It has absolutely nothing to do with being a "progressive"; I presume you are very familiar with Steve Bannon's recent comments re: military action against North Korea.
 
bobbymike said:
kaiserd said:
bobbymike said:
https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/1281946/stratcom-commander-describes-challenges-of-21st-century-deterrence/#.WZYu6kzeKkk.facebook

"We can't [assume] that having 1,550 deployed strategic nuclear weapons under the New START Treaty somehow deters all our adversaries. It doesn't," the general said.

Why we should have decoupled our arsenal from that of the USSR/Russia after the Cold War and sized it for our and our allies security needs. Which IMHO was START I - 1200 launchers and 6000 warheads.

Have you read the article?
In context it's very clear he is not advocating for larger numbers of warheads and delivery systems.
He's advocating for modernisation of the triad and for the need for complementary capabilities (like cyber attack/ defence etc.)
Where do I say he advocates for more warheads? You understand this was MY opinion on the subject quote, right? Comprehend much?
So if you reference an article then give an unconnected personal opinion on a very closely related topic (and not clarify any of this) then any inference that your opinion and the article you've referenced are related or coincide or are mutually reinforcing in any way would clearly be an unreasonable error by the reader.
 
kaiserd said:
And how are you going to realistically successfully strip North Korea of its nuclear weapons or prevent Iran achieveing nuclear weapons via military strikes/ and or invasions without (at minimum) hundreds of thousands of deaths of your allies (or your own) people?

Funny, Israel didn't have much problem ruining Iraqs nuclear ambition. Air strikes on the nuclear facilities. Tell NK if they retaliate against South Korea then a general war against the Little Kim's regime begins. He's much more interested in power than nukes. The biggest problem is, after decades of appeasing NK, we have no credibility. We can either continue to appease him, and give into blackmail, (your preferred course of action) or do something about it.
 
sferrin said:
We can either continue to appease him, and give into blackmail, (your preferred course of action) or do something about it.

Or we could simply ignore him and his annual "look at me, look at me..." childish rants. ::)
 
GTX said:
sferrin said:
We can either continue to appease him, and give into blackmail, (your preferred course of action) or do something about it.

Or we could simply ignore him and his annual "look at me, look at me..." childish rants. ::)

And after he nukes somebody? Going to ignore all the dead people, and pretend they don't exist either?
 
kaiserd said:
bobbymike said:
kaiserd said:
bobbymike said:
https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/1281946/stratcom-commander-describes-challenges-of-21st-century-deterrence/#.WZYu6kzeKkk.facebook

"We can't [assume] that having 1,550 deployed strategic nuclear weapons under the New START Treaty somehow deters all our adversaries. It doesn't," the general said.

Why we should have decoupled our arsenal from that of the USSR/Russia after the Cold War and sized it for our and our allies security needs. Which IMHO was START I - 1200 launchers and 6000 warheads.

Have you read the article?
In context it's very clear he is not advocating for larger numbers of warheads and delivery systems.
He's advocating for modernisation of the triad and for the need for complementary capabilities (like cyber attack/ defence etc.)
Where do I say he advocates for more warheads? You understand this was MY opinion on the subject quote, right? Comprehend much?
So if you reference an article then give an unconnected personal opinion on a very closely related topic (and not clarify any of this) then any inference that your opinion and the article you've referenced are related or coincide or are mutually reinforcing in any way would clearly be an unreasonable error by the reader.
Shame on them. Let me apologise to you on their behalf.

I isolated this quote to give a personal opinion, very simple and straightforward.
 
sferrin said:
GTX said:
sferrin said:
We can either continue to appease him, and give into blackmail, (your preferred course of action) or do something about it.

Or we could simply ignore him and his annual "look at me, look at me..." childish rants. ::)

And after he nukes somebody? Going to ignore all the dead people, and pretend they don't exist either?

Or attack North Korea and make it far more likely he will nuke somebody?
Your comparison with the Israeli's 80's strike on the Iraqi reactor is spurious as well as you (should) well know. North Korea already has nuclear bombs, has a sophisticated missile force, a highly decentralised nuclear programme with highly hidden and protected infrastructure, and can destroy Seoul using conventional non-nuclear weapons.
We all wish there was a straight forward (potentially even military) solution to the standoff with North Korea.
As I mentioned above would multiple Republican or Democrat administrations not already have implemented these "credible" solutions if they were actualy available?
 
kaiserd said:
sferrin said:
GTX said:
sferrin said:
We can either continue to appease him, and give into blackmail, (your preferred course of action) or do something about it.

Or we could simply ignore him and his annual "look at me, look at me..." childish rants. ::)

And after he nukes somebody? Going to ignore all the dead people, and pretend they don't exist either?

Or attack North Korea and make it far more likely he will nuke somebody?
Your comparison with the Israeli's 80's strike on the Iraqi reactor is spurious as well as you (should) well know. North Korea already has nuclear bombs, has a sophisticated missile force, a highly decentralised nuclear programme with highly hidden and protected infrastructure, and can destroy Seoul using conventional non-nuclear weapons.
We all wish there was a straight forward (potentially even military) solution to the standoff with North Korea.
As I mentioned above would multiple Republican or Democrat administrations not already have implemented these "credible" solutions if they were actualy available?

Easier to kick the can down the road and let somebody else make the call. Like the person who doesn't go to the doctor until their tumor is the size of a grapefruit and gets to hear the doctor say, "well, you're gonna die. Should have come in years ago and we could have fixed it."
 
bobbymike said:
kaiserd said:
bobbymike said:
https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/1281946/stratcom-commander-describes-challenges-of-21st-century-deterrence/#.WZYu6kzeKkk.facebook

"We can't [assume] that having 1,550 deployed strategic nuclear weapons under the New START Treaty somehow deters all our adversaries. It doesn't," the general said.

Why we should have decoupled our arsenal from that of the USSR/Russia after the Cold War and sized it for our and our allies security needs. Which IMHO was START I - 1200 launchers and 6000 warheads.

Have you read the article?
In context it's very clear he is not advocating for larger numbers of warheads and delivery systems.
He's advocating for modernisation of the triad and for the need for complementary capabilities (like cyber attack/ defence etc.)


Hyten is way too cagey to suggest any departure from the status quo
while the Nuclear Posture Review is underway.

But his discussion of New START and Extended Deterrence is interesting
since New START (unlike its predecessor) doesn't restrict SLCMs at all and
Hyten had previously remarked about PGS on surface ships.
 
sferrin said:
kaiserd said:
sferrin said:
GTX said:
sferrin said:
We can either continue to appease him, and give into blackmail, (your preferred course of action) or do something about it.

Or we could simply ignore him and his annual "look at me, look at me..." childish rants. ::)

And after he nukes somebody? Going to ignore all the dead people, and pretend they don't exist either?

Or attack North Korea and make it far more likely he will nuke somebody?
Your comparison with the Israeli's 80's strike on the Iraqi reactor is spurious as well as you (should) well know. North Korea already has nuclear bombs, has a sophisticated missile force, a highly decentralised nuclear programme with highly hidden and protected infrastructure, and can destroy Seoul using conventional non-nuclear weapons.
We all wish there was a straight forward (potentially even military) solution to the standoff with North Korea.
As I mentioned above would multiple Republican or Democrat administrations not already have implemented these "credible" solutions if they were actualy available?

Easier to kick the can down the road and let somebody else make the call. Like the person who doesn't go to the doctor until their tumor is the size of a grapefruit and gets to hear the doctor say, "well, you're gonna die. Should have come in years ago and we could have fixed it."

And when exactly would have been the window for military intervention re: North Korea?
My understanding is that North Korea's ability to destroy Seoul (using heavy artillery and other conventional weapons) dates from late eighties/ very early nineties at the latest while it's nuclear program (at least in terms of implementation) dates from approx the same time.
So maybe 2nd term Reagan administration or George Bush Senior administration could have done more?
But considering North Korea's then relationship with the Soviet Union and (then US ally) PR China realistically not a lot more could have been done. There was no obvious window for military intervention without the likely human and financial cost being horrendous.
(These are also the same US administrations that looked the other way re: the critical initial/ middle stages of the Pakistan's and India's nuclear programs.)
 
North Korea, its governing clique anyway, has been ramping up rhetoric for decades and got away with it. Now we have the Chinese government backing increased sanctions against them, something they have resisted for the effects on the ordinary citizen on the streets.

If there ever was a time to hit the infrastructure over there, now is the time to do it. Preferably with the PRC assisting. Unlikely yes but the stability of the NK clique at the low level it is, possible. How many have been executed since the current Kim Ill Joke arrived at the top step? Including family.....

Once they get to a certain level of warheads the rhetoric and threats will increase exponentially. After all, they think they will get what they want ALL of the time and going by historic events, they will again. Time to behead this particular snake before our kids and grand kids pay the price of putting it off.
 
kaiserd said:
And when exactly would have been the window for military intervention re: North Korea?

Call me crazy, but I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that time would have been BEFORE they had nuclear-armed ICBMs.
 
Congratulations, this thread has survived more then 1000 posts ! Honestly I was quite sure, that this
would never happen.
And if the use of phrases mostly beginning with "you" could be omitted, 2000 posts may not be impossible.
This thread has the word "discussion" in its title. So, arguments about what and when, if or if not are appropriate,
conjectures, what another poster would like to do or say (if it isn't said directly) rather not.
 
Nuclear Deterrence Australia 60 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piQPTKY1Hf8
 
http://scout.com/military/warrior/Article/Navy-Extends-Upgrades-Sub-Launched-Nuclear-Weapons-to-2080-106346972
 
The People's Republic of China has stated that it will "intervene" if the United States launches a military strike on North Korea and that it will "prevent" regime change. So in addition to the estimated one million casualties in South Korea, the United States would have to absorb Chinese reprisals for any military strike on North Korea.
 
Last warning !
Stick to the point and stop starting a personal quarrel !
The last three posts were deleted, the next time this thread simply will be locked.
 
Triton said:
The People's Republic of China has stated that it will "intervene" if the United States launches a military strike on North Korea and that it will "prevent" regime change. So in addition to the estimated one million casualties in South Korea, the United States would have to absorb Chinese reprisals for any military strike on North Korea.

1. There were suppose to be millions of deaths before Desert Storm. Didn't quite turn out that way. 2. Who said anything about regime change? 3. So what? We're suppose to let little Kim blackmail countries with nuclear-armed play toys because somebody said some scary words? I'd prefer risking China's wrath (if it even exists). Realistically, what would they do? I get that everybody wishes there was an easy solution but so far talk, or even sanctions, has done precisely nothing to impede North Korea.
 
Your hyperbole is misplaced. One should not state falsehoods when one argues against keeping peace.

Thousands of KIA were predicted before ODS, in part because of the assumption that Saddam would use nerve gasses.
NK is threatening Seoul with long range arty and nerve gas shells/rockets. They have a pretty good ability to kill thousands within hours.

I myself think that NK could be defeated and the PRC could be kept out of the war (especially if it's allowed to occupy most of NK and thus get a bargaining chip for Korean reunification talks that guarantees a neutral Korea without Western troops presence). The total casualty count could be kept below the qty of people the NK regime would murder in a decade.
I don't think the kind of politicians that's necessary to pull this off exists in the West, though. There's no von Bismarck in sight.
THAT is why any talk of violent solutions to difficult problems is nonsense these days.
Some problems could be solved through violence or the threat thereof, but only if said violence was guided by extremely competent politicians - of whom there is simply no evidence anywhere. The generals are useless for this - they have a too low pay grade to get stuff done for real. They are tools at best, though rarely of the needed size and shape.


Yes, I assert that the few weak nukes NK has could be overcome with conventional force.
Still, any war is extremely messy, and inevitably produces war crimes. One should simply not wage a war of aggression, period.
 
lastdingo said:
Yes, I assert that the few weak nukes NK has could be overcome with conventional force.
Still, any war is extremely messy, and inevitably produces war crimes. One should simply not wage a war of aggression, period.

Is it aggression when a known lunatic has nuclear weapons and has threatened to use them against you? Are you saying that one isn't justified in taking action until they've been attacked? This sounds like you would argue the Osirak attack was bad but not doing anything about a threat until one is nuked is good. Is that not what you're saying? (Not arguing, I'm honestly looking for clarification to your statement.)
 
sferrin said:
1. There were suppose to be millions of deaths before Desert Storm. Didn't quite turn out that way. 2. Who said anything about regime change? 3. So what? We're suppose to let little Kim blackmail countries with nuclear-armed play toys because somebody said some scary words? I'd prefer risking China's wrath (if it even exists). Realistically, what would they do? I get that everybody wishes there was an easy solution but so far talk, or even sanctions, has done precisely nothing to impede North Korea.


According to the terms of the Sino-North Korean Mutual Aid and Cooperation Friendship Treaty of 1961 and current Chinese foreign policy, the People's Republic of China would respond with military action and other aid to North Korea following a United States pre-emptive strike on North Korea. So a repeat of "Operation Opera" on North Korea would result in a Sino-American War and not merely "scary words" as you describe them.

"China’s assurances to North Korea would not apply if it began a war, but it would if were attacked first."
By Ankit Panda
August 14, 2017

Source:
http://thediplomat.com/2017/08/china-and-north-korea-have-a-mutual-defense-treaty-but-when-would-it-apply/

An editorial in China’s Global Times gained some traction last week for a suggestion that should North Korea launch “missiles that threaten U.S. soil first and the U.S. retaliates, China will stay neutral.” The editorial was picked up by the Washington Post, which noted that it was evidence that China “won’t come to North Korea’s aid” under certain circumstances.

While the Global Times isn’t among the authoritative state-run newspapers in China, in this case, it was on to something. In 1961, Kim Il-sung, the founder of North Korea, and Zhou Enlai, the first premier of the People’s Republic, concluded a bilateral treaty that remains in force to this day. Article 2 of that treaty included a mutual defense provision; China would help North Korea should it face attack and North Korea would do the same. The article reads:

'The Contracting Parties undertake jointly to adopt all measures to prevent aggression against either of the Contracting Parties by any state. In the event of one of the Contracting Parties being subjected to the armed attack by any state or several states jointly and thus being involved in a state of war, the other Contracting Party shall immediately render military and other assistance by all means at its disposal.'

The treaty was forged as memory of Chinese assistance during the Korean War remained fresh and North Korea remained relatively poor and weak. Today, more than fifty years later, North Korea has demonstrated an intercontinental-range ballistic missile capability that it hopes will be sufficient to deter its arch enemy: the United States.

In the years leading up to its demonstration of this capability, Pyongyang has also fleshed out a range of lower-order ballistic missiles, designed to threaten Seoul and Tokyo, both U.S. allies, at the theater level. Meanwhile, relations between China and North Korea have declined to the point where it may no longer be correct to say Beijing is Pyongyang’s closest diplomatic partner — merely its most important.

The 1961 treaty between North Korea and China, in the meantime, has seen an important reinterpretation on the Chinese side that is seldom discussed. The Global Times‘ interpretation of China’s policy likely rests on this interpretation, which is thought to have occurred in late-2010.

According to former South Korean President Lee Myung-bak’s memoir, Dai Bingguo, then China’s diplomatic point person on North Korea, traveled to Pyongyang to convey this reinterpretation of the treaty to Kim Jong-il. Dai’s warning was that “If North Korea would first attack South Korea and, as a result, there were full-scale arms clashes, China wouldn’t aid North Korea.” Presumably, the assurance extended to war with the United States.

For China, this reinterpretation made sense — especially after the Six-Party Talks collapsed and North Korea appeared to be on a march toward ever-more-capable ballistic missiles and, eventually, nuclear weapons with which to arm them. Denying North Korea allied assurance in the case that it would start a conflict would in theory deter Pyongyang from taking the initiative in a crisis, drawing China in.

Similarly, by allowing South Korea, Japan, and the United States the assurance that China would still intervene should North Korea face external aggression in a first strike, Beijing could presumably help deter a strike by the allies against North Korea. In effect, this Chinese policy was thought to reduce the possibility of either side starting a disastrous war on the Korean peninsula.

One of the unintended consequences of this position, in my view, was not only the broader disintegration of the close ties between China and North Korea under Kim Jong-un, but also the latter’s decision to pursue a robust and diverse nuclear force.

Kim’s ICBM has received the bulk of the attention this year, but he has also introduced a robust new suite of short-, medium-, and intermediate-range ballistic missiles that could allow North Korea to commence and terminate a war on its own terms. In the end, the Chinese decision in the early 2010s to reinterpret Article 2of the 1961 treaty may be part of why we’re facing the kind of North Korean threat we are today.
 
Triton said:
sferrin said:
1. There were suppose to be millions of deaths before Desert Storm. Didn't quite turn out that way. 2. Who said anything about regime change? 3. So what? We're suppose to let little Kim blackmail countries with nuclear-armed play toys because somebody said some scary words? I'd prefer risking China's wrath (if it even exists). Realistically, what would they do? I get that everybody wishes there was an easy solution but so far talk, or even sanctions, has done precisely nothing to impede North Korea.


According to the terms of the Sino-North Korean Mutual Aid and Cooperation Friendship Treaty of 1961, the People's Republic of China would respond with military action and other aid to North Korea following a United States pre-emptive strike on North Korea. So a repeat of "Operation Opera" on North Korea would result in a Sino-American War and not merely "scary words" as you describe them.

"China’s assurances to North Korea would not apply if it began a war, but it would if were attacked first."
By Ankit Panda
August 14, 2017

Source:
http://thediplomat.com/2017/08/china-and-north-korea-have-a-mutual-defense-treaty-but-when-would-it-apply/

An editorial in China’s Global Times gained some traction last week for a suggestion that should North Korea launch “missiles that threaten U.S. soil first and the U.S. retaliates, China will stay neutral.” The editorial was picked up by the Washington Post, which noted that it was evidence that China “won’t come to North Korea’s aid” under certain circumstances.

While the Global Times isn’t among the authoritative state-run newspapers in China, in this case, it was on to something. In 1961, Kim Il-sung, the founder of North Korea, and Zhou Enlai, the first premier of the People’s Republic, concluded a bilateral treaty that remains in force to this day. Article 2 of that treaty included a mutual defense provision; China would help North Korea should it face attack and North Korea would do the same. The article reads:

'The Contracting Parties undertake jointly to adopt all measures to prevent aggression against either of the Contracting Parties by any state. In the event of one of the Contracting Parties being subjected to the armed attack by any state or several states jointly and thus being involved in a state of war, the other Contracting Party shall immediately render military and other assistance by all means at its disposal.'

The treaty was forged as memory of Chinese assistance during the Korean War remained fresh and North Korea remained relatively poor and weak. Today, more than fifty years later, North Korea has demonstrated an intercontinental-range ballistic missile capability that it hopes will be sufficient to deter its arch enemy: the United States.

In the years leading up to its demonstration of this capability, Pyongyang has also fleshed out a range of lower-order ballistic missiles, designed to threaten Seoul and Tokyo, both U.S. allies, at the theater level. Meanwhile, relations between China and North Korea have declined to the point where it may no longer be correct to say Beijing is Pyongyang’s closest diplomatic partner — merely its most important.

The 1961 treaty between North Korea and China, in the meantime, has seen an important reinterpretation on the Chinese side that is seldom discussed. The Global Times‘ interpretation of China’s policy likely rests on this interpretation, which is thought to have occurred in late-2010.

According to former South Korean President Lee Myung-bak’s memoir, Dai Bingguo, then China’s diplomatic point person on North Korea, traveled to Pyongyang to convey this reinterpretation of the treaty to Kim Jong-il. Dai’s warning was that “If North Korea would first attack South Korea and, as a result, there were full-scale arms clashes, China wouldn’t aid North Korea.” Presumably, the assurance extended to war with the United States.

For China, this reinterpretation made sense — especially after the Six-Party Talks collapsed and North Korea appeared to be on a march toward ever-more-capable ballistic missiles and, eventually, nuclear weapons with which to arm them. Denying North Korea allied assurance in the case that it would start a conflict would in theory deter Pyongyang from taking the initiative in a crisis, drawing China in.

Similarly, by allowing South Korea, Japan, and the United States the assurance that China would still intervene should North Korea face external aggression in a first strike, Beijing could presumably help deter a strike by the allies against North Korea. In effect, this Chinese policy was thought to reduce the possibility of either side starting a disastrous war on the Korean peninsula.

One of the unintended consequences of this position, in my view, was not only the broader disintegration of the close ties between China and North Korea under Kim Jong-un, but also the latter’s decision to pursue a robust and diverse nuclear force.

Kim’s ICBM has received the bulk of the attention this year, but he has also introduced a robust new suite of short-, medium-, and intermediate-range ballistic missiles that could allow North Korea to commence and terminate a war on its own terms. In the end, the Chinese decision in the early 2010s to reinterpret Article 2of the 1961 treaty may be part of why we’re facing the kind of North Korean threat we are today.

Even the Korean War didn't result in a general war between the US and China. I have difficulty believing China would go to war over a couple of precision air strikes. Much like the hysteria when Russia came to Syria's aid, when it came right down to it, China would do little.
 
Triton said:
According to the terms of the Sino-North Korean Mutual Aid and Cooperation Friendship Treaty of 1961, the People's Republic of China would respond with military action and other aid to North

Where does the treaty oblige China to respond with military action?
 
sferrin said:
Triton said:
sferrin said:
1. There were suppose to be millions of deaths before Desert Storm. Didn't quite turn out that way. 2. Who said anything about regime change? 3. So what? We're suppose to let little Kim blackmail countries with nuclear-armed play toys because somebody said some scary words? I'd prefer risking China's wrath (if it even exists). Realistically, what would they do? I get that everybody wishes there was an easy solution but so far talk, or even sanctions, has done precisely nothing to impede North Korea.


According to the terms of the Sino-North Korean Mutual Aid and Cooperation Friendship Treaty of 1961, the People's Republic of China would respond with military action and other aid to North Korea following a United States pre-emptive strike on North Korea. So a repeat of "Operation Opera" on North Korea would result in a Sino-American War and not merely "scary words" as you describe them.

"China’s assurances to North Korea would not apply if it began a war, but it would if were attacked first."
By Ankit Panda
August 14, 2017

Source:
http://thediplomat.com/2017/08/china-and-north-korea-have-a-mutual-defense-treaty-but-when-would-it-apply/

An editorial in China’s Global Times gained some traction last week for a suggestion that should North Korea launch “missiles that threaten U.S. soil first and the U.S. retaliates, China will stay neutral.” The editorial was picked up by the Washington Post, which noted that it was evidence that China “won’t come to North Korea’s aid” under certain circumstances.

While the Global Times isn’t among the authoritative state-run newspapers in China, in this case, it was on to something. In 1961, Kim Il-sung, the founder of North Korea, and Zhou Enlai, the first premier of the People’s Republic, concluded a bilateral treaty that remains in force to this day. Article 2 of that treaty included a mutual defense provision; China would help North Korea should it face attack and North Korea would do the same. The article reads:

'The Contracting Parties undertake jointly to adopt all measures to prevent aggression against either of the Contracting Parties by any state. In the event of one of the Contracting Parties being subjected to the armed attack by any state or several states jointly and thus being involved in a state of war, the other Contracting Party shall immediately render military and other assistance by all means at its disposal.'

The treaty was forged as memory of Chinese assistance during the Korean War remained fresh and North Korea remained relatively poor and weak. Today, more than fifty years later, North Korea has demonstrated an intercontinental-range ballistic missile capability that it hopes will be sufficient to deter its arch enemy: the United States.

In the years leading up to its demonstration of this capability, Pyongyang has also fleshed out a range of lower-order ballistic missiles, designed to threaten Seoul and Tokyo, both U.S. allies, at the theater level. Meanwhile, relations between China and North Korea have declined to the point where it may no longer be correct to say Beijing is Pyongyang’s closest diplomatic partner — merely its most important.

The 1961 treaty between North Korea and China, in the meantime, has seen an important reinterpretation on the Chinese side that is seldom discussed. The Global Times‘ interpretation of China’s policy likely rests on this interpretation, which is thought to have occurred in late-2010.

According to former South Korean President Lee Myung-bak’s memoir, Dai Bingguo, then China’s diplomatic point person on North Korea, traveled to Pyongyang to convey this reinterpretation of the treaty to Kim Jong-il. Dai’s warning was that “If North Korea would first attack South Korea and, as a result, there were full-scale arms clashes, China wouldn’t aid North Korea.” Presumably, the assurance extended to war with the United States.

For China, this reinterpretation made sense — especially after the Six-Party Talks collapsed and North Korea appeared to be on a march toward ever-more-capable ballistic missiles and, eventually, nuclear weapons with which to arm them. Denying North Korea allied assurance in the case that it would start a conflict would in theory deter Pyongyang from taking the initiative in a crisis, drawing China in.

Similarly, by allowing South Korea, Japan, and the United States the assurance that China would still intervene should North Korea face external aggression in a first strike, Beijing could presumably help deter a strike by the allies against North Korea. In effect, this Chinese policy was thought to reduce the possibility of either side starting a disastrous war on the Korean peninsula.

One of the unintended consequences of this position, in my view, was not only the broader disintegration of the close ties between China and North Korea under Kim Jong-un, but also the latter’s decision to pursue a robust and diverse nuclear force.

Kim’s ICBM has received the bulk of the attention this year, but he has also introduced a robust new suite of short-, medium-, and intermediate-range ballistic missiles that could allow North Korea to commence and terminate a war on its own terms. In the end, the Chinese decision in the early 2010s to reinterpret Article 2of the 1961 treaty may be part of why we’re facing the kind of North Korean threat we are today.

Even the Korean War didn't result in a general war between the US and China. I have difficulty believing China would go to war over a couple of precision air strikes. Much like the hysteria when Russia came to Syria's aid, when it came right down to it, China would do little.
They would be cutting their wrists if they attacked the USA for taking out that pos. Their economy is so heavily dependent on ours.... It will give you a migraine trying to understand how they could successfully militarily confront the USA today. That's near term only. Eventually if left unopposed the chicoms will be able to divorce themselves from our economy and then anything is possible.

I work with Chinese engineers in china. Their middle class is not in good condition. The billionaires are doing great, but the middle class engineer... Their lives are not all fun and games. A quarter of them want to move to the USA. Its one thing to watch nightly news about china and its another to work with them daily. A large portion of the population secretly want to be more like the USA and enjoy the same freedoms we have.
 
sferrin said:
Even the Korean War didn't result in a general war between the US and China. I have difficulty believing China would go to war over a couple of precision air strikes. Much like the hysteria when Russia came to Syria's aid, when it came right down to it, China would do little.

The following article from The Japan Times seems to support the idea that the People's Republic of China would not intervene in a limited war against North Korea. However, I am just not convinced that the war would remain limited to "a couple of precision airstrikes" and not escalate into a major regional war. You don't believe that Kim Jung-un and the North Korean regime are rational actors. So why should we believe that they will absorb the airstrikes without lashing out at neighbors within range of their weapons?

I believe that the response to the North Korea nuclear crisis will be anti-ballistic missile defense and "friendly" nuclear proliferation in South Korea, Japan, Australia etc. rather than military strikes.


"For North Korea and China, defense pact proves a complicated document"
by Jesse Johnson

Apr 18, 2017

In U.S. President Donald Trump’s calculus, a choice between Chinese cooperation or American military action loom large as part of any solution to the North Korean nuclear crisis. But one often unspoken aspect of this outlook has been Beijing’s rarely mentioned mutual defense pact with Pyongyang — a treaty that would oblige China to defend North Korea in event of an attack.

The little-discussed pact, inked in 1961, legally requires Beijing to “immediately render military and other assistance by all means at its disposal” in the event the North is attacked. Such assistance could simply mean providing better defensive weapons, but it could also include something dramatic, like deploying troops and conducting military actions against attacking countries.

For both countries, this alliance — sealed in blood by the Korean War — remains relevant and personal.

But much has changed, in terms of geopolitical realities, in the nearly 56 years since the treaty was concluded. China, now the world’s No. 2 economy, seeks prestige on the global stage and a larger say in world affairs. North Korea, meanwhile, is a nuclear-armed totalitarian regime, whose atomic weapons program and alleged human rights abuses have made the isolated nation a pariah state in the eyes of many.

For China, perhaps no other foreign policy issue has proved a greater challenge in the 21st century than North Korea. But would it respond to U.S. military action taken against North Korea?

Experts say the answer is as complicated as the pair’s troubled relationship.

“There is no love lost in the China-North Korean relationship,” Bonnie Glaser, director of the China Power Project at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington said. “The relationship is stressed.”

In the North, leader Kim Jong Un has scoffed at the vassal state relationship his country has with China, its sole patron. While Kim’s father, the late Kim Jong Il, enjoyed robust ties with Beijing, the young leader has distanced himself. He has executed his uncle, Jang Song Thaek, who had pushed for bolstered links with its neighbor, while also thumbing his nose at the leadership in Beijing. In the five-plus years since he assumed power, Kim has yet to meet Chinese President Xi Jinping.

Despite repeated calls by China for the country to halt its nuclear weapons program, Kim has also overseen a huge uptick in missile and atomic tests that have threatened Beijing’s most cherished objective in the region: stability.

In an effort to protect this, Beijing may be willing to sacrifice its pact with Pyongyang, at least to an extent, experts say.

“While the mutual defense treaty obligates China to come to North Korea’s aid in times of war, no one believes that China will fulfill this obligation,” said Zhang Baohui, a professor of political science at Hong Kong’s Lingnan University. “The Chinese government has not mentioned this treaty for a long time.”

Zhang believes there are two explanations why Beijing would be unlikely to live up to the pact’s obligations: a fear of being ensnared in a devastatingly costly conflict and concerns of emboldening the North by giving it a carte blanche.

Instead, Beijing has chosen to take an approach that avoids highlighting the defense treaty while attempting to foster ties in other areas.

“Keeping mum on what they will actually do in a war scenario is a typical way for allies to discourage other members of an alliance from taking risky decisions,” said Zhang.

Still, he added, the first explanation also suggests that Beijing might turn a blind eye to a limited U.S. attack, one that does not seek to overthrow the Kim regime — and in turn put American troops on China’s doorstep.

But while a limited-war scenario may not trigger Chinese intervention, a full-scale war — one that would pit a superior U.S. military against North Korean forces — would be a different story.

China has long helped to prop up North Korea by providing it with aid and diplomatic cover as a means of maintaining a buffer zone between it and U.S.-allied South Korea. The founder of the People’s Republic, Mao Zedong, even had an aphorism for the North: “When the lips are gone, the teeth will be cold,” a reference to North Korea providing protection to an otherwise exposed China.

“China may worry that the U.S.-South Korea alliance will take over the entire Korean Peninsula,” Zhang said. In the event of a larger conflagration, it would intervene, he added, noting that this would not necessarily involve fighting, but possibly an attempt to maintain a kind of buffer zone near the Chinese border.

Experts say that with each provocation by the North, debate has grown in China over Pyongyang’s shifting role — “strategic asset” or a “strategic liability” — and whether the time has come for Beijing to cut its erstwhile ally loose.

“There is an intense debate in China over this question,” said Glaser. “There are deeply entrenched groups that view North Korea as a strategic asset.”

These groups argue that the U.S. is the greater threat and that the North helps to distract Washington’s attention from issues that involve Chinese core interests, such as the South China Sea, she noted.

But Glaser said “an increasingly vocal group of international scholars sees North Korea as a strategic liability. Xi Jinping has not yet taken a clear position, I’ve been told.”
 
marauder2048 said:
Triton said:
According to the terms of the Sino-North Korean Mutual Aid and Cooperation Friendship Treaty of 1961, the People's Republic of China would respond with military action and other aid to North

Where does the treaty oblige China to respond with military action?

'The Contracting Parties undertake jointly to adopt all measures to prevent aggression against either of the Contracting Parties by any state. In the event of one of the Contracting Parties being subjected to the armed attack by any state or several states jointly and thus being involved in a state of war, the other Contracting Party shall immediately render military and other assistance by all means at its disposal.'

Source:
http://thediplomat.com/2017/08/china-and-north-korea-have-a-mutual-defense-treaty-but-when-would-it-apply/

Plus statements by the People's Republic of China through state-owned newspapers that it will "intervene" if the United States launches a military strike on North Korea and that it will "prevent" regime change.
 
Triton said:
marauder2048 said:
Triton said:
According to the terms of the Sino-North Korean Mutual Aid and Cooperation Friendship Treaty of 1961, the People's Republic of China would respond with military action and other aid to North

Where does the treaty oblige China to respond with military action?

'The Contracting Parties undertake jointly to adopt all measures to prevent aggression against either of the Contracting Parties by any state. In the event of one of the Contracting Parties being subjected to the armed attack by any state or several states jointly and thus being involved in a state of war, the other Contracting Party shall immediately render military and other assistance by all means at its disposal.'

The treaty says nothing about military action.
 
Triton said:
sferrin said:
Even the Korean War didn't result in a general war between the US and China. I have difficulty believing China would go to war over a couple of precision air strikes. Much like the hysteria when Russia came to Syria's aid, when it came right down to it, China would do little.

The following article from The Japan Times seems to support the idea that the People's Republic of China would not intervene in a limited war against North Korea. However, I am just not convinced that the war would remain limited to "a couple of precision airstrikes" and not escalate into a major regional war.

That's usually the fear but it's not really borne out by recent history. Limited strikes have been used against Libya (several times), Syria, Iraq (Osirak), and others without escalating into a major war. Hell, Turkey even shot down a Russian fighter and now they're getting S-400s. China doesn't want a war with the US. The US isn't interested in starting a war with China. NK is a pain in the side of BOTH. If the US notified China that, "in 20 minutes we're hitting NK's nuclear and ballistic missile production", I think they'd watch and wait to see what happened. I don't think they'd be even tempted to intervene unless we went after NK's government as well.
 
sferrin said:
That's usually the fear but it's not really borne out by recent history. Limited strikes have been used against Libya (several times), Syria, Iraq (Osirak), and others without escalating into a major war. Hell, Turkey even shot down a Russian fighter and now they're getting S-400s. China doesn't want a war with the US. The US isn't interested in starting a war with China. NK is a pain in the side of BOTH. If the US notified China that, "in 20 minutes we're hitting NK's nuclear and ballistic missile production", I think they'd watch and wait to see what happened. I don't think they'd be even tempted to intervene unless we went after NK's government as well.

I believe that it all depends on whether North Korea is a rational or irrational actor. The arguments in favor of preemptive strikes mostly precede from the supposition that Kim Jung-on is a "madman" and that the statements made by North Korea are not bellicose rhetoric, but credible threats to the security of the United States and its allies. How will a "madman" respond to preemptive strikes? I don't believe that the People's Republic of China wants a war with the United States, I am just not convinced that tensions in the region won't escalate after a preemptive strike until there is a regional war in East Asia. How does the People's Republic of China respond after a North Korean retaliatory strike and is facing military action by the combined military forces of the United States and South Korea? Will the People's Republic of China say that North Korea is on its own?

Unlike your examples, North Korea is not engaged in a devastating civil war, like Syria, or a major war with its neighbor, like Iraq (1981) "Operation Opera"/Osirak. There also seems to be a belief that preemptive strikes, however precise and limited they may be, are not acts of war. Would a similar preemptive strike on the United States or its allies not be considered an act of war? People also seem to forget that the risk of an armed response by Iraq was relatively low for "Operation Opera" while Iraq was engaged in a major war with Iran. There is also debate among journalists and historians whether the "Operation Opera" raid was a success.

If Kim Jung-on is not a "madman" and North Korea is a rational actor, then you lose much of your urgency argument for conducting preemptive strikes. Will a rational actor carry out ballistic nuclear missile attacks on Sydney or Guam without knowing that the destruction of the North Korean regime is assured from such an act? Will such a regime carry out such attacks on the United States when it develops ballistic nuclear missiles with increased range? Do we just dismiss these threats as bellicose rhetoric and continue to give sanctions and diplomacy a chance?

The decision to launch a preemptive strike against North Korea should not be taken lightly and there is no certainty as laypersons on the outside to know what the consequences will be of such an attack. We aren't privy to the diplomatic cables nor do we possess all the facts/intelligence available to government decision makers. We can only take the public statements made by governments and experts, then digest the information, and come up with our own opinions whether we support or object to preemptive military strikes. I hope that if the United States government decides that preemptive military strikes are in the national interest, I hope that it will ease rather than increase tensions on the Korean peninsula.
 
Triton said:
sferrin said:
That's usually the fear but it's not really borne out by recent history. Limited strikes have been used against Libya (several times), Syria, Iraq (Osirak), and others without escalating into a major war. Hell, Turkey even shot down a Russian fighter and now they're getting S-400s. China doesn't want a war with the US. The US isn't interested in starting a war with China. NK is a pain in the side of BOTH. If the US notified China that, "in 20 minutes we're hitting NK's nuclear and ballistic missile production", I think they'd watch and wait to see what happened. I don't think they'd be even tempted to intervene unless we went after NK's government as well.

I believe that it all depends on whether North Korea is a rational or irrational actor.

NK is one of two things. Either it's irrational (as it seems to be doing everything in it's power to provoke an attack by forces that would squash it like a bug) or it's completely undeterred by any possible ramifications. (Could be both.) That is not an entity you want in possession of intercontinental nuclear weapons, or nuclear weapons of any kind. Israel saw that in Saddam Hussein, nipped that in the bud, and pretty much ended Saddam's nuclear program. Problem solved. We didn't learn that lesson and now millions may pay dearly for that mistake.
 
sferrin said:
NK is one of two things. Either it's irrational (as it seems to be doing everything in it's power to provoke an attack by forces that would squash it like a bug) or it's completely undeterred by any possible ramifications. (Could be both.) That is not an entity you want in possession of intercontinental nuclear weapons, or nuclear weapons of any kind. Israel saw that in Saddam Hussein, nipped that in the bud, and pretty much ended Saddam's nuclear program. Problem solved. We didn't learn that lesson and now millions may pay dearly for that mistake.

That interpretation of events is disputed by Iraqi nuclear scientists Khidhir Hamza and Imad Khadduri and United States Secretary of Defense William Perry. They claim that after the "Operation Opera" raid, Iraq refocused its nuclear weapons effort on producing highly enriched uranium. The Iraqi nuclear program simply went underground, diversified, and expanded.
 
Triton said:
sferrin said:
NK is one of two things. Either it's irrational (as it seems to be doing everything in it's power to provoke an attack by forces that would squash it like a bug) or it's completely undeterred by any possible ramifications. (Could be both.) That is not an entity you want in possession of intercontinental nuclear weapons, or nuclear weapons of any kind. Israel saw that in Saddam Hussein, nipped that in the bud, and pretty much ended Saddam's nuclear program. Problem solved. We didn't learn that lesson and now millions may pay dearly for that mistake.

That interpretation of events is disputed by Iraqi nuclear scientists Khidhir Hamza and Imad Khadduri and United States Secretary of Defense William Perry. They claim that after the "Operation Opera" raid, Iraq refocused its nuclear weapons effort on producing highly enriched uranium. The Iraqi nuclear program simply went underground, diversified, and expanded.

Doesn't change the facts that it put a crimp in their efforts (they had to completely change their approach which takes time, money, etc.), and that it didn't start a general war in the Middle East.
 
sferrin said:
Triton said:
sferrin said:
NK is one of two things. Either it's irrational (as it seems to be doing everything in it's power to provoke an attack by forces that would squash it like a bug) or it's completely undeterred by any possible ramifications. (Could be both.) That is not an entity you want in possession of intercontinental nuclear weapons, or nuclear weapons of any kind. Israel saw that in Saddam Hussein, nipped that in the bud, and pretty much ended Saddam's nuclear program. Problem solved. We didn't learn that lesson and now millions may pay dearly for that mistake.

That interpretation of events is disputed by Iraqi nuclear scientists Khidhir Hamza and Imad Khadduri and United States Secretary of Defense William Perry. They claim that after the "Operation Opera" raid, Iraq refocused its nuclear weapons effort on producing highly enriched uranium. The Iraqi nuclear program simply went underground, diversified, and expanded.

Doesn't change the facts that it put a crimp in their efforts (they had to completely change their approach which takes time, money, etc.), and that it didn't start a general war in the Middle East.

Because Israel had nukes and would have used them. That's what has kept the country of Israel "safe" for a long time now. But of course, now the entire Middle East is in shambles and Israel could take on half of the nations there and win purely with conventional stuff.

I really wish the USA or Israel would just shut down the Iranians. I think it's time. 2 earth penetrating nukes, and adios Iranian nuke program.
 
"America Should Consider Friendly Nuclear Proliferation"
by Doug Bandow

August 5, 2016

Source:
https://www.cato.org/blog/america-should-consider-friendly-nuclear-proliferation

There are hints of possible interest in acquiring nuclear weapons in both South Korea and Japan, especially since the rise of Donald Trump. Such a policy shift would be neither quick nor easy. Yet the presumption that the benefits of nuclear nonproliferation are worth the costs of maintaining a nuclear “umbrella” is outdated.

Since the development of the atomic bomb America has been committed to nuclear war. Many Americans probably believed that meant if their own nation’s survival was in doubt. But Washington always has been far more likely to use nukes on behalf of its allies.

The cost of America’s many commitments is high. The U.S. promises to sacrifice thousands if not millions of its own citizens for modest or even minimal interests.

Unfortunately, war is possible. Deterrence often fails, and Washington might have to decide if it will fight an unanticipated nuclear war or back down.

Friendly proliferation might be a better option. I write in Foreign Affairs: “Instead of being in the middle of a Northeast Asia in which only the bad guys—China, North Korea, Russia—had nukes, the U.S. could remain out of the fray. If something went wrong, the tragedy would not automatically include America.”

There obviously remain good reasons for the U.S. to be wary of encouraging proliferation. Yet opening a debate over the issue may be the most effective way to convince China to take more serious action against the DPRK.

Friendly proliferation might be the best of a bad set of options.
 
I've been saying for years that Japan and South Korea will go nuclear, but I would have guessed it would be due to China rather than NK. Possibly NK is just making it happen faster.
 
sferrin said:
I've been saying for years that Japan and South Korea will go nuclear, but I would have guessed it would be due to China rather than NK. Possibly NK is just making it happen faster.
Absolutely for deterrence and give China something to worry about rather than the unfettered game they play between the Norks and us. Maybe they'll get serious when Japan and Korea announce their weapons program.
 
Obama's decision to retire TLAM/N pretty much crippled extended deterrence. There's now
no way to provide it sub-strategically unless you were to reconstitute the DCA infrastructure
in S. Korea and Japan.
 
bobbymike said:
sferrin said:
I've been saying for years that Japan and South Korea will go nuclear, but I would have guessed it would be due to China rather than NK. Possibly NK is just making it happen faster.
Absolutely for deterrence and give China something to worry about rather than the unfettered game they play between the Norks and us. Maybe they'll get serious when Japan and Korea announce their weapons program.

I think the US should arm Japan with 2 dozen nukes. Would love to see the Chinese react to that!
 
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