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Author Topic: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics  (Read 79136 times)

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« on: January 05, 2006, 05:50:28 pm »
Thread to discuss MiG-23 Avionics
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

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Sapfir-23E Radar
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2006, 06:04:47 pm »
This post is by mrdetonator, at the acig.org forums, hopefully he will be here soon to repost himself.

The Sapfir-23E (izdelie 323E). 

The Sapfir-23E radar itself represents a coherent pulse Doppler system and it allows:
-search and track of enemy targets in all-aspect at any weather condition, day/night, natural interference (earth /clouds) and active/passive jamming.
-target recognition in co-op. with the SRZO-2 (friend-foe) interrogator
-single target track, measuring target range, azimuth and angular positions.
-search and track of targets emitting heat, the radar antenna controlled by IRST sensor.
-to form control signals for the SAU-23A autopilot in co-op. with LASUR-M (Vozdukh-1M) and RSBN-6S (ROMB-1K) systems, e.g. giving the "break-away" signal...
-to form control signals for launching guided A-A missiles, provides continuous illumination of the target for the RGS-23 seeker, to form control signals during the gun aiming and ensures launching of unguided missiles in the synchronous/asynchronous mode.
-to indicate RADAR/IRST information on the SEI indicator and one-way command symbols on the symbol indicator mounted on the gun sight ASP-23DE.

The Sapfir-23E uses the mono-pulse technique to track a single target. Such a radar system consists of two parabolic antennas (moving, fixed) and the four-cone T/R element.  In this system, each returning radar pulse provides target pointing information by being focused at the antenna onto a group of four-cone T/R elements.
Description of the tracking process: After pushing the „Zachvat“ button, the radar proceeds an additional search in the antenna position where the target has been found. During this additional search the scan zone shrinks to ±8º in azimuth and ±52` in elevation. If the target signal is present, the antenna performs angular tracking of the target and the radar range-finder is switched on. The range-finder searches the target in the 9km range zone. If the target is within the 9km zone, the antenna performs range tracking of the target. The SEI indicator changes its appearance. It is now showing the crosshair and the circle guidance indicator instead of selection lines (range zone). The radar is tracking the target.  The tracking principle is based on summing the elevation, azimuth and the reference signal taken from the 4-cone receiver.



The Sapfir-23E radar is linked with following other systems.

-the IRST sensor TP-23-1
-the analogue computer AVM-23
-the indicator SEI
-the optical gun-sight ASP-23DE
-the gun camera PAU-473-2
-the radar emission receiver SPO-10
-the IFF system SRZO-2M
-the transponder SO-69 (SOD-57)
-the short range navigation system RSBN-6S
-the radio-telemetric system ARL-SM
-the autopilot SAU-23A
-the gyro-platform SKV-2N-2
-the radio altimeter RV-4A
-the angle of attack probe DUA-3M
-the angle of slide probe DUS-3-1
-the true air-speed probe DVS-7 (DVS-10)
-the barometric altitude probe DV-30
-the SARH missile with the RGS-23 and the coupling block "RBS" 
-the IR guided missile with the TGS-23 and the coupling block "TBS"
-the A2G radio-commanded missile CH-23M with pod "DELTA NG"

Basic data of the Sapfir-23E system.

The S-23E radar contains of 46 parts weighting total 641kg. Main parts:
The two-mirror cassegrain antenna: 78kg
Impulse transmitter: 160kg 
KNP transmitter: 160kg  (continuous wave illuminator for the R-23R)
AVM-23 analog computer: 10.2kg
Radar max. scan limits in azimuth: ±52º
Radar max. scan limits in elevation: +43º, -38º
Antenna scan coverage in azimuth: ±30º 
Antenna scan coverage in elevation: 8.5º to 12º
Scan cycle:  3.5sec
Pulse width:  4 or 1 µsec
PRF: ~1KHz
Peak power of impulse transmitter: 70kW
Power output of KNP transmitter: 270W
Time to ready:  6min
Antenna gyro-stabilization
Pitch 30/-35º
Roll   70/-70º
Radar self check time: max. 100s
Target altitude: 40-25000m
Target speed: up to 2500km/h. 2.35M

Typical range of the Sapfir-23E against fighter/bomber sized target




Detailed description of the Sapfir-23E radar modes.

The radar scan modes BSV, BSV-delta H4, BSV-delta H1, SMV, MV are switched automatically according to aircraft altitude Hs (DV-30 barometric probe) and the antenna position ”Delta H” switch. The scan mode BSV-SC can be selected manually by the pilot with the radar mode switch "BSV SC-R-BSMV switched to the BSV-SC position.
e.g. the aircraft is flying with its nose below the horizon (descending), but the antenna bearing is above the horizon. At altitude of 1500m the BSV mode changes to SMV automatically. If the antenna bearing is below the horizon at the same conditions (descend flight), at altitude of 1500m the BSV-deltaH1 mode switches to the MV automatically and vice-versa.
The BSV-SC mode hasn’t altitude limitations, the delta H switch doesn’t have an effect on it.
When the switch NAVED AVT/RUCHN is set to AVT, the radar mode selection is done automatically by the GCI datalink (ARL-SM). The radar scan patterns under GCI are better optimized due to known PPS/ZPS aspect.  The one-way commands from GCI are displayed on special symbol indicator mounted on the ASP-23DE gunsight. Pilot can interrupt the GCI datalink anytime setting the switch to RUCHN.


The S-23E modes operating conditions.



The mode BSV for high/medium altitudes and all-aspect intercepts, to engage targets flying higher than the Mig-23. (Hc>Hs), pulse width ~4 µsec(search), pulse width  ~1 µsec(track), PRF 1Khz, Beam width in search 2,5°. Indicated range scale on SEI is 60km(search), indicated range scale on SEI is 30km(track). The maximal target altitude surplus is 6km. (delta H switch).

The mode BSV-delta H4 uses one half of the PRF compared to the BSV mode. The mode BSV-delta H4 for high/medium altitudes, rear-aspect intercepts, to engage targets flying lower than the Mig-23 on the earth background (LD/SD mode) (Hc<Hs). Pulse width ~4 µsec(search), pulse width  ~1 µsec(track), Beam width 2,5°(search). The max. altitude deficit of the target is -4km. (delta H switch).

The mode BSV-delta H1 differs to the BSV-deltaH4 by using the pulse width of  1 µsec (search, track). The mode BSV-delta H1 for high/medium altitudes, rear-aspect intercepts, This mode is used to engage targets flying lower than the Mig-23 on the earth background (LD/SD mode) (Hc<Hs). The signal is further processed, filtered out in the “differential clutter filter” (DKP)

The SMV mode for medium/low altitudes and all-aspect intercepts, to engage targets flying higher than the Mig-23. (Hc>Hs). Indicated range scale on SEI is 30km(search, track). The pulse width of ~1 µsec(search, track)

The MV mode is used to engage targets flying lower than the Mig-23 on the earth background. (LD/SD mode) (Hc<Hs). It`s used only for rear-aspect intercepts, pulse width ~1 µsec(search, track), Beam width in search 1,5°. The MV mode uses the „SDC with external coherence“ technique to compare Doppler shifts between the target and earth background. The antenna scan zone is locked in azimuth and elevation.

The BSV-SC mode is for high/medium altitudes and all-aspect intercepts, to engage targets flying higher than the Mig-23. (Hc>Hs) . The radar mode exploits the same form of doppler processing of the received signal as in the MV mode, but on the background of radio-reflective clouds. The antenna scan zone isn`t locked as in the MV mode.

(Hs- altitude of the Mig-23, Hc- target altitude)

The Sapfir-23E controls and others in the cockpit of the Mig-23MF.

The panel "Block34" contains:



The main radar operating switch "BSV-SC-R-BSMV" chooses between two radar main operating modes. The position BSMV switches among BSV, BSV-H4, BSV-H1, SMV and MV. In the BSV-SC position the radar switches between the BSV-SC and MV modes

The SIST switch has 5 operating modes. „R, T-R, T, T-phi0, NAV.
The „R“ mode determines the onboard radar as a main targeting system. Also during ground attack the radar can measure distance to the target.
The „T-R“ mode means cooperation between the radar and the IRST, if the radar is jammed the IRST can pick up the target distance and vice-versa. 
The „T“ mode prioritizes the IRST as a main targeting system. Also this mode is used in case of radar damage or hidden approach. The S-23E radar works in so called quasi-scan mode. The radar antenna is slaved to IRST sensor and is providing the data for the launch of R-23T.
In the „T-phi0“ mode the R-23T missile seeker is caged to the axis of the plane. 
The „NAV“ mode is for navigation flights under RSBN, or “return to base” command (VOZVRAT). The HUD display is showing “K”(curse), “G”(inclination) symbols, which the pilot has to follow.
The switch IZL-EKV-VYK impulse transmitter (emit/equivalent/off)
The switch NAVED-AVT-RUCHN, the instrument guiding by datalink ARL-SM on/off
The switch MSKC-PPS-ZPS, low-speed target engagements (<500km/h)/front/rear hemisphere. If no jamming occurs, the MSKC switch position allows the radar to detect targets with any closure speeds.

The panel „Block95„ contains the one-way command symbol indicator on the gunsight ASP-23DE




K- ASP-23DE self control indicator
PPS- front hemisphere intercept
AVT-the radar range-finder is automatically controlled by ARL-SM
100,60,30- range to target
F- afterburner ignite
<- target on left
I- target straight
>- target on right
!- target change
A- the „zachvat“ command.
G- the “Gorka” maneuver
PR- the „Pusk razreshen“ command
T- end of interception, return to base,
OT- the „Otvorot“ –„break-away“ command
PD- radar range-finder malfunction
K- ASP self control system


The panel „Block24„


The switch “STROB/VYKL”. In the position “STROB”, target selection impulses (lines) for the RL are generated on the SEI. In the position “VYK”, target selection impulses (lines) for the IRST are generated.
The potentiometer “US T”: amplifies video-signal from the IRST, used when jamming is encountered.
The potentiometer “US ”: amplifies radar signal in the “BSV-delta H, MV” used when jamming is encountered.
The potentiometer switch “delta H”: antenna scan zone presets in elevation(+6km/-4km), The antenna scan zone/radar range-finder is also controlled through the potentiometer located on the „POM“ throttle
The joystick/switch “ZONA R ,STROB T, SBROS” controls radar scan zone in azimuth, controls target selection impulses (lines) for IRST in azimuth and elevation. The SBROS switch position is used to cancel the RL and the IRST lock.
The switch APKH/PPKH serves to switch-on the radar protective circuits against active/passive jamming.   


The panel „Block75“



The Switch „VYKL, 3, 1, 2, 4“ is used to select the IR missile (R-13M, R-3S) carried on the pylon which locked-on the target. The pilot has to switch the proper position after the „PR“ command is shown on the SEI and pilot hears the beep tone.     




The LITERA S-23 switch with positions 1,2,3,4 is located on the right vertical console. It is dedicated to switch one of four radar pulse repetition frequencies. During a formation flight by using radar modes the pilot has to switch one of the LITERA frequencies to prevent mutual radar interferences. In the MV radar mode the switch is deactivated. The switch also determines the total number of aircrafts operating in the group with radars activated.

The OKHLAZH RLS switch activates liquid cooling of the radar during ground tests. The switch should be OFF in the flight.



Detail description of the lookdown/shootdown capability of the S-23E.

1. When the MV radar mode has been selected, the returned signal is further processed in the Pulse-doppler channel of the Sapfir-23E. At first the signal is led to the linear receiver, where it is amplified and sorted out by the amplitude detector. Then it is routed to the 49 multi-channels Doppler filter (a comb filter), where the selection of moving target takes place.   
The doppler shift of the radar is given by:

Fpd= Fd-nxFp =2x(Vr/c)xFo-nxFp

Fpd-doppler shift of pulse radar
Fd-doppler shift cw radar
c- speed of light
Vr-radial velocity component
Fo-source signal frequency of pulses
Fp-pulse repetition frequency
n-integer from 0 to infinite

If the pulse repetition frequency „Fp“and the source signal frequency  „Fo“ is constant, the amount of doppler shift depends only by the component of radial velocity. Considering that the radial velocity can change in a wide range, the doppler shift of the clutter (earth background) is taken as a reference (coherent) signal to process the doppler filtering. Therefore the filtering technique itself is called the „СДЦ (селекции движущихся целей с внешней когерентностью)“- The moving target selection with external coherence.

Then the doppler shift of the radar is given by:
Fdp=Fdc-Fdt-nxFp=2xFo/cx(Vrc-Vrt))-nxFp

Fdc- doppler shift of the clutter
Fdt-  doppler shift of the target
Vrc- radial velocity of the clutter
Vrt- radial velocity of the target

There are operational limitations such as limitations upon altitude of use or so-called blind-speeds. To operate correctly the SDC with external coherence technique needs to synchronize the target signal with the clutter phase. To simplify this task, the clutter signal received by the radar sidelobes in the second/third scan cycle is used to process the doppler filter.
To deal with the “blind speeds” the radar is changing the pulse repetition frequency during each scan line.  More than 90% of “blind speeds” are covered, what ensures sufficient target detection.




2. At higher altitudes the SDC with external coherence technique becomes ineffective, the radar uses the BSV-deltaH1 and the BSV-delta H4 mode. Both the BSV-deltaH modes use a technique called the Single-beam space-time selection.  This filtering technique makes use of the difference between the spatial target location and the earth surface segment illuminated, which distances to the radar are the same. By utilizing the antenna high spatial selectivity it is possible to separate the target signal from the clutter. The advantages over the SDC with external coherence technique are no limitations in scanned sector and the target heading. Its disadvantage is the strong relationship between detection range and the target altitude. Lower target altitude means smaller detection range. The detection range equals:

D =k x Hc (km)

D- detection range
k- coefficient given by the antenna directivity pattern, characteristics of the surface background, target RCS and the surplus altitude over the target.
Hc- target altitude.



When illuminating the surface by a high directive antenna, the returned signal from the earth comes a bit later compared to the target signal. Then it is possible to separate the target signal from the clutter by using common methods of processing. The power of the clutter signal depends on the distance to the earth by a given antenna bearing as shown on the picture.

There are three specific regions.

-The first sector is evoked by the antenna sidelobes, which receive signals directly from beneath the plane.  It is also here possible to separate the target signal from the clutter, because the target signal coming from the mainlobe uses to be stronger compared to the clutter signal coming from the sidelobes.
-In the second region the ground clutter can be filtered out easily, the power of the target signal greatly exceeds the clutter received by radar mainlobe. 
-In the third region the ground clutter exceeds the target signal due to strong ground echoes received by the mainlobe. There is no possibility to detect the target signal.

The radar suffers from the clutter even more by illuminating the surface at very low elevation angles. Using of the high directive antenna will result in intense backscattering, the ground clutter increase in beam width. To filter the ground clutter the BSV- delta H1 mode uses the DKP „the differential clutter filter“ which processes the return signal further. The DKP filter operates only while the target is tracked in the BSV-delta H1 mode.



The S-23E cooling system

The high-power transmitters (klystron tubes) are cooled by “closed cycle” liquid system. The working temperature of the liquid “antifriz 65” is +55°C. The cooling system is engaged immediately after the radar is switched on. The front radar bay is cooled with “ram” air. The flow volume is 650-800kg/h. The air-cooling system maintains operating temperature of 55-60°C inside the radar bay. If the temperature exceeds limit, the cooling slots are closed.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 06:06:28 pm by overscan »
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Sapfir-23ML Radar
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2006, 06:08:26 pm »
Again by mrdetonator

The fire control system of the Mig-23ML contains:
-the N003E coherent pulse Doppler multimode radar
-the analogue computer AVM-23
-the IRST TP-26Sh
-the HUD sight ASP-17MLE
-the gun camera PAU-473-5
Other system interconnections are: ARL-SML, SRZO-2M, SPO-10, A-031, SAU-23AM, SKV-2N-2M, DUA-M-1, DVS-7, DV-30, RSBN-6S, SO-69, weapon system with guided/unguided missiles/guns/bombs.

The fire control system/radar system ensures:

1. target acquisition in all-aspect at any weather condition, day/night
2. identification friend or foe
3. tracking of single target in head-on/pursuit, measuring range and angular position 
4. all-aspect engagements of air targets at altitudes =>1.5 km with the R-23R and rear-aspect engagement with the R-23T,R-3S,R-13M,R-60. (Hc <>= Hs)
5. rear-aspect engagements of targets flying at low altitudes using the R-23T,R-3S,R-13M,R-60. (Hc > Hs)
6. rear-aspect engagements of small/big targets flying at low altitudes using the R-23R, R-23T,R-3S,R-13M,R-60. (Hc < Hs)
7. rear-aspect engagements of maneuvering targets using asynchronous aiming methods and gun weapons.
8. detection and engagements of low-speed targets
9. giving command signals to fire, end of intercept,......when manual/automatic(ARL-SM) flight controls.
10. giving command signals for ready/launch of R-23R,R-23T,R-3S,R-13M,R-60.
11. providing STT mode for the R-23R.
12. giving the range information to the ASP HUD-sight when gun firing at air targets.
13. giving the range information to the ASP HUD-sight when gun firing at ground targets and bombing.   

(Hs- altitude of the Mig-23, Hc- target altitude)

The N-003E contains of 44 parts weighting total 475kg. Main parts:
Antenna : 56kg
Impulse transmitter: 98kg (klystron type tubes)
KNP transmitter: 48.5kg (providing STT for R-23R)
Parametric amplifier: 8kg
AVM-23 analogue computer : 8.2kg


Radar scan limits in azimuth: ±56º
Radar scan limits in elevation: +52º, -42º
Peak power: 40kW
 
Basic performance data of the N003E:

The radar detects targets at altitudes from 50 to 25000 m flying at speeds from 500 to 2500km/h.

The range in the “BSV” mode:

-search range against Tu-16 is 72km
-track range against Tu-16 is 52km
-search range against Mig-21 is 53km
-track range against Mig-21 is 35km

The range in the “MV” mode:

-search range against Tu-16 is 24km
-track range against Tu-16 is 14km
-search range against Mig-21 is 19km
-track range against Mig-21 is 10,5km

The range in the “BSV-delta H” mode (when Hs=2Hc):

-search range against Tu-16 flying at 2.5-5km is 54km
-track range against Tu-16 flying at 2.5-5km is 39.5km


Control panels in the cockpit:

The panel N003-34 contains.


The weapon system selector switch “SIST” with modes:

-RL (BSV, BSV - Delta H4, BSV - Delta H1, SMV, MV)
-BS (I BS, II BS, III BS)
-T (T I, T II, T III, T – Phi 0-I, T – Phi 0-II)
-NVG

The switch IZL-EKV-VYK, impulse transmitter  (emit/equivalent/off)
The switch NAVED-AVT-RUCHN, the GCI datalink ARL-SML on/off
The switch MSKC-PPS-ZPS, low-speed target engagements/front/rear hemisphere 
The switch PU-VYK, parametric amplifier ON-OFF

The modes BSV, BSV-delta H4, BSV-delta H1, SMV, MV are switched automatically according to aircraft altitude Hs (DV-30 barometric sensor) and the antenna position ”Delta H” switch. The modes I BS, II BS, III BS must be switched manually. When the switch NAVED AVT/RUCHN is set to AVT, the radar mode selection is done automatically by GCI command link  (ARL-SML). The radar scan patterns under GCI are better optimized due to PPS/ZPS aspect. The one-way commands from GCI are displayed on special symbol indicator on the HUD sight. Pilot can interrupt the GCI anytime setting the switch to RUCHN.

The mode BSV for high/medium altitudes, all-aspect intercepts (Hc<>=Hs), pulse width ~4 µsec, PRF 1Khz, switching altitude Hs>4,5km, Beam width in search 2,5°. Scan patters depend on NAVED AVT/RUCH switch position. Beam width in STT  1.7°.

The modes BSV-delta H4, BSV-delta H1 for high/medium altitudes are useful for searching targets on earth background not using the Doppler shifts (MTI). For all-aspect intercepts, switching altitude is 4.5km>Hs>1,5km. It uses half/third PRF compared to BSV mode.  The “differential compensator device” (DKP) filters false ground signals out. For greater search range the parametric amplifier can be switched on. The receiver sensitivity gains of 5-10% (dB/mW).

The modes BS (I BS, II BS, III BS) for high/medium altitudes are used for all-aspect intercepts (Hs<>=Hc) in case of false targets (clouds) and for picking up targets on earth background by using reference coherent signal received by radar side-lobes. The “III BS” mode has the largest search range of 65km, the “I BS” the smallest one of 27km. The most used mode is the “II BS” with 45km search range. The "III BS" mode works only as a search mode. The FFT Doppler filtering techniques are used to select moving targets flying on the earth background.  The so-called “blind speeds” are overcome by changing PRF pulses during each scan line. More than 90% of “blind speeds” are covered, what ensures good MTI.

The mode SMV for medium/low altitudes, only rear-aspect intercepts (Hs<Hc), The switching altitude is Hs<1.5km, pulse width ~1 µsec, PRF 1Khz. The scan patters depend on NAVED AVT/RUCH switch position.

The mode MV is used to engage targets flying at low altitudes on the earth background. It is only for rear-aspect intercepts (Hs>Hc), The switching altitude Hs<1.5km, switch “Delta H”<0, pulse width ~1 µsec, Beam width in search 2,5°. The MV mode uses the MTI based on Doppler shifts.

The modes TP (T I, T II, T III, T-phi 0-I, T-phi 0-II) are used in case of radar damage, jamming or hidden approach. The device TP-26Sh is used for target searching/tracking.  Leading the aircraft into the target area is done via ARL-SML/Voice commands. 

The search scan pattern in mode “T I“ is 60º in azimuth and 15º in elevation.
The search scan pattern in mode “T II” is 15º in azimuth and 6º in elevation.
The mode “T III” is automatically switched if the target is acquired in the “T II” mode. The “T III” mode has different parameters (target selection impulses-lines) compared to T II/T I.   
If the target is acquired by IRST, the N003E radar switches to quasi-search mode. The radar antenna is slaved to IRST sensor and is providing the data for the launch of R-23T. The HUD brightness (IRST signal) can be set via the “USIL T” switch.

The modes (T-phi 0-I, T-phi 0-II) are used when radar activity isn`t required. The R-23T missile seaker is slaved to the IRST.
 
The mode NVG is used for navigation flights under RSBN, or “return to base” commands (VOZVRAT). The HUD display is showing “K”(curse), “G”(inclination) symbols which the pilot has to follow.

The ARL-SML symbol indicator shows following commands on the “ASP17MLE”.



one-way command symbols:

PPS – front hemisphere intercept
100,60,30 – range to target
F – afterburner ignite   
< - target on left
I – target straight
> - target on right
T – end of interception, return to base
G - the “Gorka” maneuver
! – target change
PD – radar ranger malfunction
K - ASP self control system

The last  two symbols are not related to ARL-SML.

The panel S23ML-24



The switch “STROB/VYK”. In the position “STROB”, target selection impulses (lines) for the RL are generated. In the position “VYK”, target selection impulses (lines) for the IRST are generated.
The potentiometer “USIL T”: amplifies video-signal from the IRST, 
The potentiometer “USIL R”: amplifies radar signal in the “BSV-delta H, MV” modes when the command “Pomekha” is present.
The switch “delta H”: antenna presets in elevation
The potentiometers/switch “UPR STROBA” controls RL scan zone in azimuth, controls target selection impulses (lines) for IRST. The SBROS switch position is used to cancel the RL and the IRST lock.
The switch APkh/PPkh:

N003E cooling system

The high-power transmitters (klystron tubes) are cooled by “closed cycle” liquid system. The working temperature of the liquid “antifriz 65” is +55°C. The cooling system is engaged immediately after the radar is switched on. The front radar bay is cooled with “ram” air. The flow volume is 650-800kg/h. The air-cooling system maintains operating temperature of 55-60°C inside the radar bay. If the temperature exceeds limit, the cooling slots are closed.


Schematic timeline in rear-aspect engagement under ARL-SML data-link.

1.   Switching NAVED-AVT/RUCHN to AVT.
2.   ARL-SML indicator shows “100”, HUD display shows search range scale  “90”.
3.   ARL-SML indicator shows “60”, HUD display shows search range scale “60”, AVM counts target range/closure rate according to ARL-SML information. Target range is on HUD.
4.   ARL-SML indicator shows “36”, HUD display shows search range scale “30”, RL is engaged automatically in proper mode.
5.   target searching and identification (IFF). 3-4 radar cycles
6.   Lock-on 0.2-3.5sec. The AVM receives accurate data from RL. 
7.   “PODGOT” for missile ready, the radar switches to STT mode. The R-23R missile head seeker is tuned to the target signal. 
8.   HUD shows “PR”, fire, missile leaves the pylon.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline Dilbert

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2006, 06:34:46 pm »
Wow!  Sapfir was coherent pulse-Doppler with look-down?!   :o

I had no idea.  It makes me wonder what, in the end, MiG-29's N-019 radar is for.

Thanks!

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2006, 05:34:26 am »
While it had a rudimentary lookdown capability, and used pulse-doppler techniques, it was quite a complex system, built with analogue processing. Detection range in lookdown mode was short, and the pilot had a multiplicity of modes to select to find the target. Some modes worked only in rear aspect engagements, or were search only. "MV" mode for low altitude lookdown locked the antenna in a fixed forward position, so you couldn't slew the radar left or right. A well-trained MiG-23 pilot, working with ground support, could do pretty well especially with an MLD, but the MiG-29;s N019 radar would make it so much easier for a rookie pilot.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline Dilbert

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2006, 06:45:24 pm »
Really, that's interesting...  also from mrdetonator?  Was he a former pilot or engineer?

I generally reserve the term "rudimentary" lookdown for non-coherent radars that base their MTI on envelope-detection interferometry techniques, as described in the Russian text:

http://www.permag.perm.ru/real_brls.htm

...coherent pulse-Doppler is quite a technological leap forward IMHO - i.e. "Sapfir-E" seems to have a lot more in common with N-019 than with original "Sapfir" with which it shares the name, despite the differing user interface layout.

You're maybe familiar with this site?  Some intresting extracts, apparently from a Russian air defense engineering textbook, including a general description of both coherent and non-coherent look-down modes:

http://www.permag.perm.ru/real.htm

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2006, 10:38:08 pm »
Quote
the doppler shift of the clutter (earth background) is taken as a reference (coherent) signal to process the doppler filtering. Therefore the filtering technique itself is called the  SDTs- The moving target selection with external coherence.

From above. Sounds exactly like the technique described below;

Quote
3rd generation (1970 years) compose pulse BRLS, which ensure target detection, that fly against the background of the earth, with the attack by fighter from top to bottom. This problem for the first time was posed in our country, but the necessary scientific technical reserve was absent for its solution. The method of the selection of the moving purposes (SDTs) with the application of a external coherency of the signals reflected from the earth's surface and the moving purpose was selected as the basis of the solution. In the systems with the external coherency reference signal is created due to the reflexions of sounding pulses BRLS from the extensive local objects on the earth's surface. The signals from these objects reflected can n 3.… 80 dB exceed the level of internally-produced noise of receiver and mask useful signal.

To isolate target by the method SDTS is possible, when the signals reflected occupy one permitted pulse capacity and the radial velocity of purpose such, that the corresponding to it Doppler frequency not to the multiple frequency of the repetition of sounding pulses. The signal reflected from the target does not pulsate with the multiplicity of such frequencies and by hardware it is compensated as the coherent signal of a constant amplitude of reflections from the local objects on the earth's surface. The indistinguishability of purpose contribute also the instability of the work of equipment and the external reasons, connected with the fluctuation of amplitude and phase of the signal reflected.

For the realisation of this resolution OF NII RTNII - SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE radio construction was preset the development BRLS “Sapfir-23” for the aircraft MiG-23 (chief designer Kunyavsky g. M.). After connexion to these work OF NII RTNII - SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE instrument manufacture and creation in 1969 OF NPO “Phazotron” the chief designer OF BRLS “Sapfir-23” becomes Figurovsky Yu. n.

Fundamental difficulties in the creation of mode SDTS arose during the guaranty of the necessary level of noise of the transmitting device and dynamic range of receiving device. The first led to the appearance of the large number of false target blips, and the second coarsened sensitivity BRLS, that it did not make it possible to isolate the weak signals of the purpose of the against the background powerful signals, reflected from the earth.

Solution of these problems required the concentrations of the efforts of the specialists of many scientific and production organisations. To the development of system “Sapfir-23” is assigned the group of the specialists OF NII RTNII - SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE instrument manufacture headed by by the deputy design project leader of association Grishin v. k., which together with the specialists OF NII RTNII - SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE radio construction conducts performance and tests of this system. According to the results of tests is finished a large quantity of units BRLS of the, including transmitting and receiving channels. In 1976 g. the aircraft MiG-23 with the system “Sapfir-23” was accepted for the armament.

BRLS 3rd generation with the mode SDTs are executed on the semiconductors and the micromodules, in practise without the application of electron tubes; in them is realised the illumination of purpose by continuous emission for Doppler radar GSN, ensuring defeat of targets, which fly at the low altitudes (lower than the fighter). Furthermore, they joined through the systems of aircraft with the ground-based guidance systems and ensured capture and target tracking according to the data of ground-based ASU. This - BRLS of the development BY NII RTNII - SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE of radio construction of the type “Sapfir-23” for the aircraft MiG-23 different modifications and “Sapfir-25” for the aircraft MiG-25

Source:
« Last Edit: January 08, 2006, 10:40:06 pm by overscan »
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2006, 03:52:16 am »
Really, that's interesting...  also from mrdetonator?  Was he a former pilot or engineer?

As a main source for the description above I used the radar technical manuals, so please make your own decision, and yes if it helps, I`m an engineer.

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2006, 10:38:27 am »
As I indicated above, I think both sources are saying the same thing.

I'm currently reading through Stimson's Introduction to Airborne Radar (2nd Edition) ebook to see if I can find some relavant information.
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2006, 11:12:17 am »
Page 204

Quote
In still another approach, called noncoherent or clutter-referenced moving target indication, the equivalent of coherence is achieved by detecting the “beat” between the target echoes and the simultaneously-received ground return. But as explained in page
24 in Chapter 2, this technique has serious limitations.


Sources
  • George W Stimson, Introduction to Airborne Radar (2nd Edition), Scitech 1998
« Last Edit: January 09, 2006, 11:18:30 am by overscan »
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2006, 12:05:25 pm »
Page 280
Quote
There are two basic approaches to implementation of MTI systems: (a) coherent MTI and (b) noncoherent MTI. The first provides better performance, but the second is simpler, using clutter to perform the same function as does the reference signal in coherent MTI. This is termed clutter-referenced or externally coherent MTI.

Page 280-1
Quote
Clutter referenced MTI is “a type of noncoherent MTI that uses clutter as a reference.” Usually it is an adaptive MTI in which the average velocity of clutter surrounding the target cell is used to control the center velocity of the rejection notch.

Page 282
Quote
In the conventional noncoherent MTI system, targets in range cells containing no clutter are lost for want of a phase
reference. Various clutter gating procedures are used to enable a normal video channel in such cells, bypassing the canceler to avoid loss of targets. A alternative noncoherent MTI detector uses the hard-limited output of adjacent cells as the reference to a phase detector, such that moving targets are detected in the absence of clutter through the random phase of noise in the reference cells.
Advantages of noncoherent MTI are simplicity and its inherently adaptation to moving clutter. Disadvantages are reduced improvement factor and inability of most types to operate in the absence of clutter.

Source
  • David K. Barton & Sergey A. Leonov, eds, Radar Technology Encyclopedia Artech House, 1998
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2006, 12:06:56 pm »
Hats off to you, overscan!

What you found in Stimson is EXACTLY the problem I was having, and the reason why I was interested if mrdetonator was an engineer, and could maybe comment on this technical question...

It seems that what Russian engineers call "coherent", Western engineers specifically identify as "noncoherent"!!  Can it really be true??

I could not have expressed it better myself - hence my surprise and confusion.  I've never seen such an astonishing technical translation mix-up.

So, what's going on here?  mrdetonator, can you comment?  Sapfir-E is really coherent, or noncoherent after all?

As if we poor enthusiasts didn't have enough information/translation problems already, now this!  Most upsetting!   >:(

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2006, 12:14:31 pm »
Good gravy!

Hats off to you again, overscan...  It seems that while writing my last post you went and confirmed everything.

Barton and Leonov must be an American and Russian author, respectively, who had this exact argument while preparing their book, hence the new definition "noncoherent MTI" = "externally coherent MTI".   ???

What a mess.

Ok, at least I will personally continue to NOT call Sapfir-E a "coherent pulse-Doppler" radar, to keep from getting confused with N-019 capabilities.

Quite amazing.  Fine research, thanks!

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2006, 12:27:47 pm »
It depends from what angle you are approaching this from, after all the radar sapfir-23 acts as coherent pulse doppler, so the Soviets called it a coherent pulse doppler design, but how exactly they achieved that is a different thing.

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2006, 12:34:52 pm »
Ok, at least I will personally continue to NOT call Sapfir-E a "coherent pulse-Doppler" radar, to keep from getting confused with N-019 capabilities.

honestly that`s up to you. Yes, the N-019 differs a hell of a lot from the Sapfir familly radars, the N-019 is a true coherent pulse-Doppler radar. Hmm, I thought you already knew that... :(
« Last Edit: January 09, 2006, 12:36:25 pm by mrdetonator »

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2006, 12:37:32 pm »
The Sapfir-23 is generally a pulse radar that uses doppler processing of the signal. It uses "a method of moving target selection by external coherence", which is best described as clutter-referenced MTI rather than non-coherent MTI.

A true coherent pulse doppler radar produces identical trains of pulses, allowing you to process doppler information confident in the phase/frequency that the pulse was given by you. A Coherent-On-Recieve radar transmits varying pulses, but stores the information on the pulse so that on receiving the returning pulse it can be compared to the original transmitted pulse.

In contrast Sapfir-23 doesn't store the transmitted pulse information. Instead, it uses the clutter return as a reference signal.

Quote
To operate correctly the SDTs with external coherence technique needs to synchronize the target signal with the clutter phase. To simplify this task, the clutter signal received by the radar sidelobes in the second/third scan cycle is used to process the doppler filter.

I think that the use of sidelobe clutter return means that, at low levels, the problem outlined above in the quotes (targets can only be detected in the presence of clutter) should not be an issue, as the sidelobes should always be generating some ground clutter.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2006, 12:41:03 pm by overscan »
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2006, 12:45:04 pm »
It may be a matter of perspective, and in that case I'm probably biased by the Western definition, but as far as I understood, the whole point of "coherence" is to allow the integration of multiple pulses.  This can only be done when the phase between one pulse and the next is an integer number of wavelengths (i.e. the Western definition of "coherence").  Does the Sapfir-E actually perform MPRF or HPRF (Medium- or High-Pulse Repetition Frequency) pulse integration?  I don't understand how signals reflected from the ground can be argued to have the property of "coherence," when no such claim is made for the original transmitted pulses from the radar.   ???

From my perspective, it seems there was a Soviet theft or convenient re-definition of the words "coherent pulse-Doppler look-down/shoot-down" to describe "whatever radar technology we have right now" in 1970s (perhaps to claim parity with the West in some kind of negotiations?), that required them to invent a new label for what the west calls "coherent pulse-Doppler" when they finally invented that, in the 1980s, with N-019.  So, maybe this is where that strange Russian word "quazicontinuous" came from, that didn't appear in any English-language radar texts: Russian definition of "quazicontinuous" equals western definition of "coherent"?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2006, 01:01:09 pm by Dilbert »

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2006, 12:57:52 pm »
"quazicontinuous" is best understood as "interrupted continuous wave".

I've never quite understood the difference between high prf pulse doppler with fm ranging and frequency modulated interrupted continuous wave. Aren't they basically the same thing?
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2006, 01:06:49 pm »
"quazicontinuous" is best understood as "interrupted continuous wave".

So is "coherence", by the western definition - in order for the pulse phase to be an integer number of wavelengths apart, it means that the pulses are simply on/off interruptions of a continuous wave.  Hence my suspicion that Western "coherence" = Russian "quazicontinuous", rather than Russian "coherence".

Quote
I've never quite understood the difference between high prf pulse doppler with fm ranging and frequency modulated interrupted continuous wave. Aren't they basically the same thing?

I came to the same conclusion.

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2006, 01:09:08 pm »
Quote
To operate correctly the SDTs with external coherence technique needs to synchronize the target signal with the clutter phase. To simplify this task, the clutter signal received by the radar sidelobes in the second/third scan cycle is used to process the doppler filter.

I think that the use of sidelobe clutter return means that, at low levels, the problem outlined above in the quotes (targets can only be detected in the presence of clutter) should not be an issue, as the sidelobes should always be generating some ground clutter.

Wow, you're on a roll today!  When I read that quote, I couldn't understand what it was saying at all.  I think you're right.

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2006, 01:22:23 pm »
So I think we've got somewhere.

The Sapfir-23 is a pulse radar, uses doppler processing, and uses an external method of obtaining coherence. Hence, you could, at a stretch, say is is a "coherent pulse doppler" radar without actually lying.

The Sapfir-23 was continuously developed, the later versions used greater numbers of doppler filters for better range accuracy, and introduced additional modes to pick out targets in different situations. Later versions are better in lookdown, but still not comparable to a true pulse-doppler radar.

The N-019 is a pulse-doppler radar with true internal coherence, and hence is an interrupted continuous wave ("quazicontinuous") radar.
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2006, 02:21:13 pm »
Quote
Thus Lincoln Laboratory researchers attempted to make signals passing through the MTI canceler coherent by locking a coherent local oscillator (or COHO) to the phase of the return from a single range-gate sample of clutter. The COHO then ran at its own frequency until reset in phase by the clutter sample following the next transmission. This technique did not work well because of the finite width of the main-beam clutter spectrum. The COHO locked onto a spread of Doppler frequencies and produced ugly radial streaks on the PPI. A solution for the streaking problem was found by deriving the COHO phase from the average phase of a large number of clutter range elements. This technique, which became known as Time-Averaged Clutter-Coherent Airborne Radar (TACCAR), was conceived by one of the authors, Melvin Labitt

A quick search founds dozens of PDFs about "TACCAR". I'm sure they might be illuminating. Its the basis of the original E-2 Hawkeye radar.

Source


« Last Edit: January 09, 2006, 02:23:51 pm by overscan »
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2006, 04:15:30 pm »
From my perspective, it seems there was a Soviet theft or convenient re-definition of the words "coherent pulse-Doppler look-down/shoot-down" to describe "whatever radar technology we have right now" in 1970s (perhaps to claim parity with the West in some kind of negotiations?), that required them to invent a new label for what the west calls "coherent pulse-Doppler" when they finally invented that, in the 1980s, with N-019.  So, maybe this is where that strange Russian word "quazicontinuous" came from, that didn't appear in any English-language radar texts: Russian definition of "quazicontinuous" equals western definition of "coherent"?

I was thought that the "quasicontinuous wave" consists of pulses with high repetition frequency. So, at some aspect you can say the wave appears as a continuous but in real it is not, thus the word "quasi=nearly"continuous or in russian (Квазинепрерывный режим излучения-KNI).  The Sapfir radar is thus quasicontinuous wave, a pulse radar with high repetition frequency, which at last enabled them to utilize various doppler filtering techniques.
The meaning of the word "coherence" is the same for both the east(russian) and west world, but in case of the Sapfir radar, the difference is here merely how/where the coherence is achieved. 
Then the N-019 is a radar with quasicontinuous coherent wave or "true" coherent pulse doppler or "импульсно-допплеровские РЛС с квазинепрерывным излучением".....etc
Does it make sense to you at all, because sometimes I`m confused by your explanations.... :o

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2006, 05:08:41 pm »
The meaning of the word "coherence" is the same for both the east(russian) and west world, but in case of the Sapfir radar, the difference is here merely how/where the coherence is achieved.

From Stimson's "Introduction to Airborne Radar":

Quote
Coherence

By coherence is meant a consistency, or continuity, in the phase of a signal from one pulse to the next.

Are you sure that this is the Russian definition of "coherence" also?  How can reflections from the earth maintain the same phase from one pulse to the next?  I would expect the ground clutter reflections to be filled with phase noise - i.e. to have completely random phase from one pulse to the next.

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2006, 11:52:04 pm »
NOTE: I am not a radar engineer. This is my opinion ;)

Given that the "MV" mode has a fixed, known scan pattern, the average phase of the ground clutter return will vary with the speed of the host aircraft. If you therefore take the average of a number of ground clutter returns over a reasonably short period of time, during which the velocity and altitude of the host aircraft can be regarded as constant, the average phase shift is likewise constant (hence 'time-averaged clutter coherent'). This defines a baseline "ground return" which you can compare to any individual returned pulse. A return from a moving target that is moving significantly differently from the ground will be a "spike" away from this 'average noise'.

Paul

P90

Quote
COHERENCE is the concept generally applied to harmonic oscillations:
u(t) = V0 sin(wt + y)
Two or more harmonic oscillations are termed coherent at the interval Tc if the phase shift between them is constant for the whole interval Tc. In radar, coherence is considered in a broader sense, and typically the signals are considered to be coherent if their phase structure is linked and the character of this linkage is known.

Source:
  • David K. Barton & Sergey A. Leonov, eds, Radar Technology Encyclopedia, Artech House, 1998
« Last Edit: January 10, 2006, 02:39:06 am by overscan »
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2006, 02:21:50 pm »
Given that the "MV" mode has a fixed, known scan pattern, the average phase of the ground clutter return will vary with the speed of the host aircraft.

I think you might be confusing "phase" with "Doppler".

The Doppler frequency profile of the ground clutter will shift according to the speed of the host aircraft, yes.

"Phase" refers to something else.  A 10 GHz radar signal like that of a fighter radar will pass through a full 360 degrees of phase in a space of only 3 centimeters - much, much smaller than the swath of earth being illuminated.  The ground clutter signal will be the sum of reflected signals from many different points on the ground, and thus the phase of this combined reflected signal will be something totally random and unrelated to anything.  To apply the word "coherent" to this signal makes about as much sense as saying white noise is "coherent" - you can say it, but it's meaningless, because then there doesn't anymore exist any signal in the universe that could be called NOT coherent.

And therein lies my objection.  By the western definition, Stimson is able to provide concrete illustrative examples of two signals - one coherent, and one non-coherent, and all is understood by the comparison.

This is impossible for the Russian definition, because it says that all waves are coherent.  Without an example of a non-coherent signal to compare against, the word "coherent" becomes devoid of meaning.  It's like trying to draw a map of the continents, after you have redefined "land" to also include "water" - or, trying to see stars during the daytime, or a snowman in a blizzard... there's no contrast to separate one from the other.

Quote
In radar, coherence is considered in a broader sense, and typically the signals are considered to be coherent if their phase structure is linked and the character of this linkage is known.

This is not a definition, it is a plea for acceptance, at best... or simply nonsense at worst.  ("Character of the linkage of the phase structure"   ???)

A plea that I must objectively refuse, until Leonov (or anyone who agrees with him) can give a counter-example: what is a non-coherent signal?

Any example he gives, I will be able to use his own definition against him, to prove that it's coherent, exactly as they have done with ground clutter - one of the noisiest, most random signals that could be imagined!

Of course you are completely innocent in this overscan, and I don't know what to say...  As a self-professed electrical engineer, I feel shamed by this turn of events - that someone should open an Artech House textbook and find gibberish inside!  Who are you supposed to believe now, an anonymous, faceless forum poster named after a cartoon character, to correct this mess??  It's a travesty.  Bankers, lawyers, doctors, politicians, pilots, economists... these people can tell you hand-waving meaningless feel-good nonsense and I don't mind, that's life.  But a degreed engineering professor writing a textbook?!?  Champion of the one cold, hard, true mathematics that never lies?!?  Is nothing sacred?!?  I can't express the personal shame and humiliation I feel to be in any way associated with this - after all the times I encourage people to research, to read books, and now this.  On behalf of my colleagues - I'm sorry.  Really I am.   :-[

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2006, 11:31:48 pm »
I realised after reading back what I wrote that I was confusing frequency and phase.

However, how do you account for the Western use of "TACCAR" (Time-Averaged Clutter-Coherent Airborne Radar) to describe a clutter referenced MTI technique used on the E-2? In what way is it coherent?

« Last Edit: January 10, 2006, 11:43:05 pm by overscan »
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2006, 08:29:24 am »
TACCAR relies on a coherent local oscillator (COHO) as the reference signal.  The signal from this oscillator must fully satisfy the western definition of "coherent" - maxima are separated by an integer number of wavelengths, with extremely low phase noise.

Does Sapfir-E have one of these as well?  I thought that it was using the ground clutter reflection itself as the reference.

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2006, 12:52:58 pm »
Sapfir-23 (Izdeliye 323)

From Phazotron museum, missiles.ru.

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2006, 02:01:48 pm »
Nope, this is not a 323, this should be a Sapfir-23MLx Radar. The Sapfir-23DIII (item 323) or Sapfir-23E (323E) has the transmitter/receiver centered.
BTW, the yellow wave guide on top is part of the, so called, "compensation channel". Introduced with the RP-22 radar (MiG-21 variants and MiG-23MS) it was one step to reduced the minimal operational altitude from 1500m to 1000m (because of ground clutter). It was also used with the Sapfir-23. Normally extend above the fixed part of the radar antenna, except the Sapfir-23DIII and Sapfir-23E. There it is directed to the moveable part of the antenna. You can see it on the first picture of mrdetonator's description about the Sapfir-23E.
This channel was activated only in "SMV" radar mode (scan lines above horizont Hs < 1.5km).


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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2006, 02:16:53 pm »
Yes, you are correct.

Phazotron museum labelling sucks, apparently.
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2006, 11:33:30 pm »
Yes, you are correct.

Phazotron museum labelling sucks, apparently.
The picture doesn`t show the Sapfir-23MLx either. According to manuals both radars the 323E and the N-003 share the same design where the trasmitter/receiver waveguide is placed in the middle of the antenna.

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2006, 12:07:09 am »
Well- the Sapfir-25 definitely has the offset feed;

http://www.missiles.ru/_foto/MuzeyFAZOTRON/faz14.jpg

The antenna of the radar posted above looks just like the Sapfir-25, except smaller.
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2006, 04:06:09 am »
BTW, the yellow wave guide on top is part of the, so called, "compensation channel"... Normally extend above the fixed part of the radar antenna, except the Sapfir-23DIII and Sapfir-23E. There it is directed to the moveable part of the antenna.

Got some new information. While with the rp-22 and the sapfir-23MLx the "compensation channel" is a receiver the Sapfir-23DIII/E has a transmitter with two emitter directed to the moveable reflector of the antenna.
@mrdetonator: Could you please double-check this.

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2006, 06:13:12 am »
After browsing through my archive I found a photo clearly showing this type of antenna mounted on czechoslovak Mig-23ML(variant A).  Gentlemen, I give up.....   :-[ :-[
« Last Edit: January 31, 2006, 06:34:29 am by mrdetonator »

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2006, 06:59:27 am »
Don't worry Martin- its enough to drive anyone mad!

I think on this occasion you were mistaken- that or the manual was wrong!
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2006, 11:03:17 am »
I think on this occasion you were mistaken- that or the manual was wrong!
the document is not describing the antenna in detail, that`s all. :(

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2006, 11:32:03 am »
Quote
The Sapfir-23E uses the mono-pulse technique to track a single target.[
If on picture Sapfir-23 in the description it is written that it has the latent conic scanning

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2006, 11:51:21 am »
@Vadifon

Could you please provide the picture with higher resolution which would makes it possible to read the descriptions?! Thanks.

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2006, 12:20:33 pm »
@Vadifon

Could you please provide the picture with higher resolution which would makes it possible to read the descriptions?! Thanks.

it gives only basic descriptions, from top to bottom:
1. moveable antenna part with gyro-stabill. in roll
2. combined waveguide
3. compensation channel waveguide
4. fixed parabolic mirror
5. inspection openings
6. fixed antenna base

1. moveable antenna part with gyro-stabill. in roll
2. combined waveguide
3. compensation channel waveguide
4. moveable cone mirror
5. fixed antenna base

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2006, 12:27:50 pm »
@Vadifon

Could you please provide the picture with higher resolution which would makes it possible to read the descriptions?! Thanks.
http://www.vvsussr.com/vadifon/Cassegrain.rar

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2006, 02:46:23 pm »
Thanks Vadifon. Quick English version attached...
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2006, 09:34:12 am »
I will speak about the radars delivered with the Mig-23 variants to Iraq (Mig-23MS, MF, and ML). The radar delivered with the Mig-23MS was the Almaz-23 which was the same delivered with the mig-21bis. That radar was good for nothing; just to summarize. The radar delivered with the Mig-23MF was a Sapfir-23E but interestingly had no capability to launch the R-13M or the R-60. This is an interesting point since the radar mentioned in the second reply by overscan, does have the capability to launch the am weapons. The radar supplied with the Mig-23ML was the Sapfir-23M and not the NOO3. Again it had no capability to launch the R-13M. The technical documentation of the Sapfir-23E was very meager; the main technical documentation was for the Sapfir-23M radar. Here the PRF is 1 KHz and 5 KHz. The quasi-continuous frequency is 100 KHz; it is used only in guiding the R-23R and R-24R Semi Active Radar Homing Missiles. The difference between the western approach and the eastern approach is that the western (not always; the French didn’t adopt this approach in the Matra Super-530 missile) approach use a pure carrier while the eastern approach was to use high repetition pulse. The Soviets never used the western solution for guidance; in fact they criticize it in their scientific literature.   

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2006, 12:47:29 pm »
Welcome to the forum!

The quasi-continuous frequency is 100 KHz; it is used only in guiding the R-23R and R-24R Semi Active Radar Homing Missiles.

Why "only" for missile guidance?  Is it not possible to also perform target tracking, with quasi-continuous illumination?  I thought that quasi-continuous was just a Russian word for high pulse repetition frequency (HPRF).  Western and Russian MiG-29 radars use HPRF for normal tracking all the time, why not MiG-23?

Also - why is a radar necessary at all, to employ R-13 and R-60 heat-seeking missiles?  Even MiG-21 and aircraft like Su-25 without any radar can use them, no?

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2006, 12:51:44 pm »
Hi Ahmad!, welcome to the forum!  :D

Dilbert, I think is something with the stores managment system of Iraq's MiG-23MF and ML (SUO) not being capable to handle the R-13M and R-60 (MF) and R-13M (ML) and not directly related to the radar itself.

I hope that Ahmad could provide us interesting accounts of Sapfir-23's actions of the IrAF like he did on ACIG.org for the benefit of all people here  ;)

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2006, 01:52:39 pm »
That is interesting - that the Iraqi MiG-23's radars can't work with the R-3S and R-13. So, it is not to the stores amangment system, it is more likely reffered to the radar's capability of calculating the Dmin and Dmax distances (max and min launch distance) for the current flight conditions, so all launches shall be done with visual aiming (missile seeker is 'boresighted' -  the Fi-zero mode), with distances estimated by the pilot's Mk1 eyeball and brain.
As well, the MiG-23MF/ML also don't like the R-3S, and for it, only Deffective was calculated, instead of Dmin and Dmax, as pilots recall. 

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2006, 12:53:09 pm »
A fascinating thread – may I add my twopennyworth:

The more I look at the missile.ru Phazotron piccies, the more I agree with Overscan that their labelling sucks – or at least the person who prepared the webpage does – for instance the Sapfir-21 is also labelled RP-21: I thought Sapfir-21was the RP-22. I would almost kill for a wander round the museum- it opens up so many questions.

Mrdetonator’s first offering has a line diagram of “The 4-cone T/R” showing a symmetrical feed as in the Sapfir-21 – but also as in the later Smerch-A (if the missile.ru site is correctly labelled!) The  line diagram also shows a high frequency waveguide feed for the KNP transmitter ie CW illumination for R-23R missiles – logical.

Since Amahd Rushdi says that by the Sapfir-23M quasicontinuous (aka interrupted continuous wave/HPRF) missile illumination is used, this would possibly remove the need for a separate CW illuminator channel – but given that the R-23R appears to use a much higher frequency than the main radar it opens up all sorts of questions as to how this revised radar addresses the problem.

Crossiathh’s diagram of the feeds shows a separate feed bouncing off the back reflector. This cannot be the compensation channel (a receiver) – It must logically  be a missile illuminator feed – and hence it could be at a different frequency as it does not need to use the front polariser. Bu if this is so then the quasicontinuous illumination of Amahd does not fit -unless as he suggests the russians always used quasicontinuous for missile illumination - it might allow a higher peak power.

Later …Further thoughts:

Perusing the permag article and reviewing other sources (including the missiles.ru piccies) it appears that the Sapfir-21, Smerch-A, and Taifun were all designed by FF Volkov -and kept the centre feed concept -  while, in parallel a NIIP/NIIR consortium developed the Sapfir-23D then Sapfir-23ML and finally (after Belenko’s defection) the Sapfir-25. This series would all appear to be based on the offset feed - which, of course, culminated in the N-001 and N-019.

Processing:  The Sapfir-23 series (third generation according to the permag article), using “external coherence” or clutter-referenced processing (SDTs) is an MTI technique rather than Pulse Doppler. The difference, I feel, is that MTI uses target doppler to discriminate between target and clutter while Pulse doppler actually goes further to measure target velocity (and requires REAL pulse coherence). This did not appear until the N-001/019 series.

Incidentally, what is the russian phrase for KNP? does the K stand for kvasi?

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2006, 01:48:15 pm »
Yes, Sapfir-21 is RP-22. RP-21 is the TsD-30 series. I've invited the missiles.ru guy here, maybe he can help ;)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2006, 01:58:07 pm by overscan »
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2006, 09:59:04 am »
Incidentally, what is the russian phrase for KNP? does the K stand for kvasi?

Source: http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/mig23m.html
....Сами передатчики (импульсный весом 140 кг и передатчик канала непрерывного подсвета для ракет - весом 110 кг)

In other words the KNP means the “Continous Wave Illuminator”, which was used in the whole Sapfir-23 family radars providing the cw beam for the R-23R missiles. If Iraq received the Mig-23MF in 1982 (Ahmad`s data), the radar Sapfir-23E should had been the same design as those delivered to WP countries in late seventies. The lack of ability to fire the R-60 doesn’t seem illogical at all. Note, the Czechoslovakia received Mig-23MF in 1978 and till 1982 were not able to fire the R-60. The Mig-23ML received in 1981 handled it from the beginning. No wonder why Iraq or other third world countríes were not supplied with Soviets “state of art” weapons. The Soviets have been using a technical bulletin style of upgrade/maintenance events, so there was a technical bulletin about adapting the R-60 to the Mig-23MF weapon system. The R-60 adaptation required to add/change electronic blocks to the aircraft weapon system of the Mig-23MF. The R-60 (R-3S, R-13M) might be fired with assistance of all three aiming systems, the Sapfir radar, the IRST sensor and the optical gun-sight ASP-23DE. When using the Sapfir-23E, the AVM-23 automatically computes the Dmax, Dmin distances and indicates them on the SEI(HUD) and gives the PR command when the target is within the launch range(Deff). Aiming with the IRST TP-23M sensor in modes T(radar is on) and the T-Fi0(radar is off) differed in the way how the launch distance was obtained. In the T mode the radar remains in "kvasi" scan-mode but supplies the information about the target range. The AVM-23 gives only the Dmax distance prior to missile lauch. In the T-Fi0 mode the target range is provided by GCI or estimated by the pilot itself.
In case of radar or IRST malfunction the guided IR missile can be firred with the optical gun-sight using the  mode “SYNCHRO/NEPOD"-fixed cross hair. The distance to the target is set either manually by pilot (turning the potentiometer on the POM throttle) or is supplied by the GCI. The optical aiming mode “NEPOD” requires to set the target size (small, medium, large) with the potentiometer “BAZA” located on the gun-sight. Otherwise the optical gun-sight is fed with radar data automatically (target range), therefore the "Ruchn/Autom" switch is located on the ASP-23.
Summing it up, the only strange thing for me is claiming that both Iraqi Mig-23MF/ML were not able to launch R-13M, the main close range A2A missile of the Mig-23 since beginning. But I doubt it was a Mig-23MF/ML weapon system flaw.

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2006, 01:32:54 pm »
Vadifon provided:
Quote
http://www.vvsussr.com/vadifon/Cassegrain.rar

Having now perused it in detail (using overscan's translation plus a dictionary for the diagrams I am full of admiration for the incredible microwave engineering of the complex feed - incorporating main radar (with mutimode horns),  E and H-plane sidelobe suppression + overall guard horn (the compensation horn) and Parol Tx/Rx. The sub-reflector means of polarising both frequency bands is phenominal!

I am wondering if the detail in this document reflects Sapfir 23/25 technology or whether some of the advanced detail is N-001/019. Whatever, as a microwave engineer I am impressed.

Interestingly in this document there is no KNP mentioned - this is another reason for thinking that the document is of a later version - perhaps using quasicontinuous illumination?


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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2006, 08:51:36 pm »
I was told by a Russian friend that it described a MiG-23 radar.  IIRC, the roll limits given are a bit smaller than those of either N-019 or N-001.

I notice that the first figure overscan posted in this discussion has an image labelled "KNP transmitter (CW beam)".

If "KNP" is quasi-continuous (HPRF?), and CW continuous-wave, would this not be a contradiction?  Were the same terms used in the original Russian labelling?  I'm still trying to convince myself, regarding whether or not MiG-23 radar contained a coherent oscillator.

Cheers to a newcomer microwave engineer!  :)

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2006, 11:50:42 pm »
I believed that the N019/N001 were the first generation radars to incorporate IFF interregators in their radar antenna, but I can't say where I got that impression from.
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2006, 12:01:44 am »
KNP means CW, as Mr Detonator notes above.

I believe, from various hints, that the CW channel in Sapfir-23 has a role in the lookdown detection method. Unfortunately this is getting too deep for a non electrical engineer ;)
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2006, 02:41:40 pm »
Lewradar, I wonder if you could explain a little about what you mean about the design of the cassegrain antenna and specifically the subreflector.  I understand that the subreflector must work for both the main radar and the IFF which are totally different frequencies- is this difficult?
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lewradar

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2006, 12:12:05 pm »
Quote
Lewradar, I wonder if you could explain a little about what you mean about the design of the cassegrain antenna and specifically the subreflector.  I understand that the subreflector must work for both the main radar and the IFF which are totally different frequencies- is this difficult?


The twist cassegrain concept is used to prevent aperture blocking. Essentially, the horn(s) emit horizontal RF which the front reflector (which is covered with an array of closely-spaced horizontal wires) reflects back to the sub-reflector.

The subreflector has to change the polarisation of the waves from horizontal to vertical so that they then pass through the horizontal wires unscathed.

The usual means of effecting this involves an array of wires at 45 degrees which reflects half the power of the horizontal signal. The other half passes through the wires a distance of quarter of a wavelength to the metal back surface of the sub-reflector where they are reflected. This extra path difference of half a wavelength  (quarter there plus quarter back) results in the two 180 degree phase difference waves interacting to produce the required vertical polarised signal for transmission. Section 8.9 of the Cassegrain document explains this using vectors.

Thus if (say) 12 GHz and 1.5 GHz  signals are to be so affected the sub reflector has to incorporate quarter wave thicknesses for both. Ris 10 in the document shows how this is effected: the basic thickness is a quarter wave for the 1.5 GHz signal. By incorporating a periodic array of small reflectors embedded in the material of the sub-relector at a depth of quarter wavelength for the 12 GHz signal this fulfills the requirement for both frequencies - both frequencies are changed to vertical polarisation for outward transmission.

[remember that the opposite effect will occur for received vertical pol signals and they will enter the horns as horizontal]

A difficult concept: Skolnik “Introduction to Radar systems” 2nd Edition explains the basic concept on pages 242-243. He calls it a twist reflector.

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2006, 12:27:02 pm »
Since writing the above I have revisited the missiles.ru pictures from the Phazotron museum.

Quote
I am wondering if the detail in this document reflects Sapfir 23/25 technology or whether some of the advanced detail is N-001/019. Whatever, as a microwave engineer I am impressed.

look at the thickness of the subreflectors for Sapfir-23, -25 and smerch. Compared to these the N-019 sub reflector is much thicker.

Overscan said:
Quote
I believed that the N019/N001 were the first generation radars to incorporate IFF interregators in their radar antenna, but I can't say where I got that impression from.

It appears that the pictures reinforce that belief


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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2006, 12:54:31 pm »
Thank you for your explanation. I think I agree that this document describes N019, not Sapfir-23.

Here in the UK, Elliot/Marconi engineers decided to go with their existing expertise in inverse cassegrain antennas for Foxhunter given the low sidelobe levels demanded and their lack of experience in slotted waveguide planar arrays.

Phazotron and NIIP both tried to make a go at a planar array antenna design in the late 70s/early 80s but the manufacturing technology just wasn't there. They therefore revisited their existing technology and resurrected it one last time, while carrying on work on the planar arrays for future radars (N010, N011).
« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 12:56:25 pm by overscan »
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2006, 01:13:42 pm »
Quote
A polarization-twist antenna is a dual-reflector antenna in which the feed illuminates the first reflector, which consists of wires matched to the feed polarization (Fig. A71). Rays from this wire grid are reflected to the second reflector, consisting of a solid surface overlaid with a grid (or ribs) at 45°.Upon reflection from the second reflector, the polarization is rotated 90° to pass through the first reflector without blockage.

Quote
The feed-horn illuminates a wire-grid parabolic reflector, embedded in a plastic cover in front of the antenna system. This reflects power back to the tilting plate, on which are a series of ribs oriented at 45° to the incident polarization and l/4 deep, that
rotate the linear polarization through 90° and reflect it as a beam which passes through the parabolic reflector and into space.

Artech House Radar Technology Encylopaedia
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2006, 09:07:52 am »
a grotty scan from "Little Skolnik pp 242/243

enjoy

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2006, 10:15:08 am »
The basic principle was already used with the RP-21. Attached you will find a picture of the planar mirror with a centred feed of a RP-21. Would like to know if there was a common usage with westerner radars.

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2006, 12:00:27 pm »
Indeed. The offset feed design is more advanced though.
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #61 on: February 17, 2006, 01:27:54 pm »
Quote
The basic principle was already used with the RP-21. Attached you will find a picture of the planar mirror with a centred feed of a RP-21. Would like to know if there was a common usage with westerner radars.

The french appeared to like the concept - see RDM for the Mirage 2000.

btw looking at the picture there seems commonality between the RP-21 and the R-23 seeker - that corrugated quarter-wavelength polariser.

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2006, 09:10:36 pm »
Out of curiosity - does anyone find the quoted "peak power" of 40-70 kW to be a little high?

The following site appears to indicate that the MiG-29's N-019 has a peak power of only 6.5 kW:
http://www.ecf.utoronto.ca/~pavacic/marcosv.htm

Offline crossiathh

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Sapfir-23DIII
« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2006, 02:46:10 am »
Back at www.airwar.ru:

Chart providing comparison Sapfir-23DIII versus Cyrano iV and AN/APQ-120. Would like to know the actual source of the data, but interesting anyway...

Source: Airwar.ru http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/mig23m.html

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #64 on: June 23, 2006, 12:02:41 pm »
Looks like its from the Fedosov book on Air Defence, I'm just looking though it now for a page reference.
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #65 on: September 03, 2006, 01:56:30 pm »
Nice picture of a Sapfir-23E installed in a hungarian MiG-23MF:
http://flightphoto.fw.hu/katonairepules/23as_reszletfotok/photo2.jpg

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MiG-23 autopilot
« Reply #66 on: September 14, 2006, 07:20:48 am »
Woaaa, my first post here!

Well, I'm currently reading a book about German-Soviet technology transfer after WW2.
It says that the autopilot of the MiG-23 was based on a german one. The authors didn't
mention the specific type. Any comments?

TIA, and keep up the good work!

Greetings from L.E.,
Marco

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2007, 04:39:24 am »
Can anyone confirm the radar type installed in the MiG-23MS Flogger E? I understand it was the RP-22SM Jay Bird, but would like confirmation.

Also, how different was the MiG-23's Jay Bird from the Spin Scan of the later model MiG-21s?

Thanks!


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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2007, 05:53:37 am »
It was the RP-22SM I think, though I should check tonight.

RP-22 Sapfir was a monopulse radar, where RP-21 was conical scan. This meant that it was significantly more resistant to ECM. It also had a little more range.

RP-22 was not used on export MiG-21s until the MiG-21bis was exported in the 1970s and later, though it was fitted to Soviet MiG-21S (for Sapfir) and SM from the mid 1960s onwards.
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Offline aviator7725

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Question about Apex missile
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2008, 10:44:53 am »
I have question about parameters connected with cooperation between Saphir and Apex missiles.The main questions are:
how is the definition for   the maximal angle of the target lock ?
and how is value of this angle for Apex missile
and Saphir radar ?.
Is this angle the same like the width of the radar beam in automatic tracking mode- plus minus 52 grad ?
For example in another manual I see parameters for another missile R-60 :
max angle of the target lock : plus minus 40 grad
angle of missile seeker view plus minus 2,5 grad

Offline lancer21

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #70 on: February 09, 2010, 05:19:18 pm »
Hi everyone.

I've been browsing thru this topic , very interesting reads indeed. Seems at one point there was a discussion whether or not the Safir-23D/E has the waveguide transmitter in the middle of the antenna or not, like on RP-22 for instance ...i just came by couple of pics , hope this would help out sorting this quizz...

Would you guys say that from these pics that the transmitter looks to be in the middle ? i've stared at these pics ALOT, trying to match angles and writing on the antenna housing , it SEEMS to be in the middle for me ....what do you think ?


Offline John Cool

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #71 on: February 10, 2010, 03:58:05 am »
I personally think you don't really need to make angles :)

In my humble opinion Safir-23D/E (Izd. 323) truly has the waveguide transmitter in the middle of the movable reflector in the Cassegrain antenna and it is quite clearly shown in the polish service manual of the MiG-23MF.

In the composition of the RLS Izd. 323 presented below there is a continuous radiation transmitter KNP (in Polish: KCO - Kanał Ciągłego Opromieniowywania) to which transmitter antenna is located in the middle of the main relfector, just between the four separate tube channels A, B, C and D.
It's worth to mention that KCO itself is a rectangular waveguide and is particularly important because it enables guiding the R-23R missile with RGS seeker. The second dish of the antenna shown below is the classic fixed parabolic reflector, crucial to the principles of the Cassegrain antenna concept.



To achieve the basic principles of the amplitude-monopulse concept, the RLS antenna system consists of:
• two reflectors: parabolic (fixed) and flat (movable);
• (quad-channel) tube-antenna: four separate tube channels A, B, C and D, which are used to receive signals reflected from the target.

Impulses reflected from the target are being received by four antennas, channel (tubes) 'A', 'B', 'C', 'D', which were mentioned ealier. Walue of the received pulse (signal) at the entrance of each antenna channel will depend on the target position relative to the tube antenna.

Signals received by antenna channel (tubes) "A", "B", "C", "D" after adequate formation are further brought to an electronic comparator, which calculates nessesary values. Output from the performed calculations (comparison of the received signals), as a result of operations conducted in the aggregation and comparison of input values, face the following three output signals: differential signals Ua and Up and the final summarized and approximated signal UΣ.



The last picture shows the bank and pitch stabilization angles of the Safir-23D/E (Izd. 323) antenna complex and finally, the search and observation zones. The observation zone vary on the angular values φho and φpo which can be moved manually or automatically, according to signals from ARL-SM in the range of values of maximum border angles φhg and φpg.



Special thanks and credits for Czesio for all pictures ad decrtiption of the Izd. 323 antenna presented above :)
Link here: http://81.210.9.116/~apacz/smf/index.php?topic=9711.msg206033#msg206033
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 04:10:22 am by John Cool »

Offline lancer21

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #72 on: February 11, 2010, 02:35:41 pm »
First i'll admit that i dont know much technical stuff about radars , klystron tubes and emitters and so on ...so ,sorry John , i dont understand any of the stuff you just posted! :D

Now , i just looked around the net , and looked onto my comp , and i'm quite confused...
I found a russian pic of a Mig-23ML said to be from 82nd series, and on its nose , on both sides, concerning the radar there were these stencils: "Bloki Izd 324ML"

I know from here , and other places that the RP-23 radar has the Izd. number 323...annoyingly enough, i couldnt find any Mig-23M/MF stencils close enough to show just that , i can vaguely make Izd.323E in one of the pics from Y. Gordons book , but i'm not sure...

Now , i have seen export MLs and MLDs showing N-003E and N-008E respectively on their nose ...i also found a soviet MLD showing N-008 ...so far so good.

I still didnt found any Mig-23P radar nose stencils , i've read somehere that its suposed to be written N-006...does anyone have such a pic ?

The question is however this : if  the Izd.323 is the Safir-23D/E...is the Izd. 324ML the Safir-23ML ? and why does the export MLs i saw have N-003E on their nose , is N-003 the same as Izd.324ML ?or are they different ?

As someone here posted earlier ...yes its quite enough to drive someone mad! ;D

Thank you for your time.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 02:37:23 pm by lancer21 »

Offline mrdetonator

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2010, 10:39:12 am »
Now , i have seen export MLs and MLDs showing N-003E and N-008E respectively on their nose ...i also found a soviet MLD showing N-008 ...so far so good.

I still didnt found any Mig-23P radar nose stencils , i've read somehere that its suposed to be written N-006...does anyone have such a pic ?


The question is however this : if  the Izd.323 is the Safir-23D/E...is the Izd. 324ML the Safir-23ML ? and why does the export MLs i saw have N-003E on their nose , is N-003 the same as Izd.324ML ?or are they different ?

As someone here posted earlier ...yes its quite enough to drive someone mad! ;D

Thank you for your time.


1. AFAIK the Izd.323 was indeed the Sapfir-23DIII (letters "DIII" probably derived from the "Delta aSh" mode, added before it went to mass production) stenciled as "S-23" on soviet or "S-23E" on export Migs-23M/MF(23-11A/23-11B).
2. Almost certainly the izd.324ML was the Sapfir-23ML a further development of izd.323, stenciled later on soviet a/c as N-003 and N-003E on all export Mig-23ML/MLA (izd.23-12/23-12A).
3. Not much is known about the N-006 which was a radar installed into Mig-23P(izd.23-14) and never exported to foreign countries. The N-006 stencils appeared on the nose, but unfortunately no one has published or put online photos of Mig-23P cockpit so far.
4. The N-008 was the latest development installed to all izd.23-18 and izd.23-22, aircrafts usually designated as Mig-23MLD. Some basic information is known about the N-008E, e.g. what radar modes were added and what they were for when compared to N-003, mostly from Bulgarian sources. You can also search cockpit pictures on airliners.net, but sad again they are not high-res.


P.S. this is a discussion that went hot several years ago on many aircraft forums, but since then it somehow faded out.
Here is one N-006 pic, but cant find more even if had many....hmm. linkhttp://fotki.yandex.ru/users/beretta-93/album/72990?p=9
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 10:42:46 am by mrdetonator »

Offline lancer21

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2010, 12:23:48 pm »
Now , i have seen export MLs and MLDs showing N-003E and N-008E respectively on their nose ...i also found a soviet MLD showing N-008 ...so far so good.

I still didnt found any Mig-23P radar nose stencils , i've read somehere that its suposed to be written N-006...does anyone have such a pic ?


The question is however this : if  the Izd.323 is the Safir-23D/E...is the Izd. 324ML the Safir-23ML ? and why does the export MLs i saw have N-003E on their nose , is N-003 the same as Izd.324ML ?or are they different ?

As someone here posted earlier ...yes its quite enough to drive someone mad! ;D

Thank you for your time.


1. AFAIK the Izd.323 was indeed the Sapfir-23DIII (letters "DIII" probably derived from the "Delta aSh" mode, added before it went to mass production) stenciled as "S-23" on soviet or "S-23E" on export Migs-23M/MF(23-11A/23-11B).
2. Almost certainly the izd.324ML was the Sapfir-23ML a further development of izd.323, stenciled later on soviet a/c as N-003 and N-003E on all export Mig-23ML/MLA (izd.23-12/23-12A).
3. Not much is known about the N-006 which was a radar installed into Mig-23P(izd.23-14) and never exported to foreign countries. The N-006 stencils appeared on the nose, but unfortunately no one has published or put online photos of Mig-23P cockpit so far.
4. The N-008 was the latest development installed to all izd.23-18 and izd.23-22, aircrafts usually designated as Mig-23MLD. Some basic information is known about the N-008E, e.g. what radar modes were added and what they were for when compared to N-003, mostly from Bulgarian sources. You can also search cockpit pictures on airliners.net, but sad again they are not high-res.


P.S. this is a discussion that went hot several years ago on many aircraft forums, but since then it somehow faded out.
Here is one N-006 pic, but cant find more even if had many....hmm. linkhttp://fotki.yandex.ru/users/beretta-93/album/72990?p=9

Thanks , this is great info , especially the N-006 pic is new to me!

Yes i am aware of the discusions from various places about ML/MLA , guess i'm trying to revive them!

As for M/MF i was under the impression that stencils should read  Izd. 323( 323E for export)...i have found a picture said to be of a polish MF showing clearly RLSN-323E on its nose( or maby its RPSN , i'm not sure ...i'll post the pic)

As for the ML nose stencils, do you know ( or anyone else ) of more a/c with either Izd.324ML or N-003 nose stencils ? You said "almost certainly" refering to the S-23ML , so i guess i could add that i was thinking if its possible that Izd.324ML and N-003 are actually different radar sets , and maby the ones with the N-003 are the bloody MLAs that everyone is burning their brains about! ( this posibility would make sense to a point...)! But i guess all this is just theory , without haveing actual solid proof...  

The ML from the 82nd series with he Izd.324 stencils on the nose , is there any way to find out when the a/c of the 82nd series were built ? is it before or after 1978/79?

Anyway , the MF nose pic ...

Offline mrdetonator

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2010, 02:17:36 pm »
As for M/MF i was under the impression that stencils should read  Izd. 323( 323E for export)...i have found a picture said to be of a polish MF showing clearly RLSN-323E on its nose( or maby its RPSN , i'm not sure ...i'll post the pic)

As for the ML nose stencils, do you know ( or anyone else ) of more a/c with either Izd.324ML or N-003 nose stencils ? You said "almost certainly" refering to the S-23ML , so i guess i could add that i was thinking if its possible that Izd.324ML and N-003 are actually different radar sets , and maby the ones with the N-003 are the bloody MLAs that everyone is burning their brains about! ( this posibility would make sense to a point...)! But i guess all this is just theory , without haveing actual solid proof...  

The ML from the 82nd series with he Izd.324 stencils on the nose , is there any way to find out when the a/c of the 82nd series were built ? is it before or after 1978/79?

Anyway , the MF nose pic ...


Regarding stencils in general, it depends what was painted in repair plants after maintenance overhauls, therefore you could see stencils either Izd. 323E(original from Soviet production plant) or later S-23E, both are well known designations from Mig-23MF aircraft documentation. Anyway, the Mig-23MF radar production plate is saying S-23DIII, so if you do not believe check it yourself somewhere. :)
Realize that almost each production serie could differ to previous one, it is an instant process of development and optimization. Those small changes are very hard to find unless you have the documentation of both e.g. inner airframe changes, different versions of hydraulic, fuel, flight control system aggregates,... etc, what is quite understandable especially when we are talking the "troubling" type as the Mig-23 was.
I agree that mentioned Mig-23ML from 82nd serie 0390308260 is an early produced ML supposedly equipped with gun sight ASP-23D/ASP-23DE. Later produced ML were upgraded with the ASP-17ML gun sight earning designation MLA as written in almost all Mig-23 publication together. Would you be able to distinguish between ASP-23D and ASP-17ML gun sight when seeing them in cockpit?
I spent a lot of time looking various Mig-23 documents, therefore I dare to say that the designation Izd.324ML denotes the same radar as later N-003/N-003E.

Polish Mig-23MF with S-23E stencils

Offline lancer21

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #76 on: February 13, 2010, 03:42:14 pm »
Ok i did some digging thru the net and my computer... about various Mig-23 versions cockpit and the gunsights, early Mig-23ML 82nd series has an ASP-23D, then a Mig-23P from 186th series SURPRISINGLY has the same type of gunsight aparently( i thought P/23-14s have ASP-17 aswell...)! Then a Mig-23MLD has an ASP-17ML (-for reference- all these are on the same picture , i will attack it along with several others...i have checked with Mig-23MF cockpits, as we know they too have ASP-23Ds...now i checked the cockpit of a czech Mig-23ML (22401?), and unless am i missing something, that is definetly an ASP-17ML!

I'm sure you will be able to check this info on your side , for instance german or bulgarian ML cockpits, i am assuming you will find ASP-17MLs there...

I dont wanna rush with conclusions here , but maby , just maby there is a solid tangible way to diferentiate between an ML and a so called MLA...i know from what i could gather around that the MLA designation was not taken into VVS service , it suposedly was an unoficial designation of the late model MLs with ASP-17 sights and capability to fire R-24s...adding to the confusion that the bulgarians call their ML 23-12As as MLAs , i guess the result is obvious!

But again , i dont wanna rush to conclusions, i might be wrong in all the above!

Anyway pics ...first the 3 cockpit , then a czech ML...

« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 03:46:03 pm by lancer21 »

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #77 on: February 13, 2010, 06:52:44 pm »
It has been suggested that later model Soviet MiG-23ML had ASP-17 and Sapfir-23MLA (N006) radars, leading to the unofficial MiG-23MLA designation.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
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Offline mrdetonator

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2010, 02:14:44 am »
Ok i did some digging thru the net and my computer... about various Mig-23 versions cockpit and the gunsights, early Mig-23ML 82nd series has an ASP-23D, then a Mig-23P from 186th series SURPRISINGLY has the same type of gunsight aparently( i thought P/23-14s have ASP-17 aswell...)! Then a Mig-23MLD has an ASP-17ML (-for reference- all these are on the same picture , i will attack it along with several others...i have checked with Mig-23MF cockpits, as we know they too have ASP-23Ds...now i checked the cockpit of a czech Mig-23ML (22401?), and unless am i missing something, that is definetly an ASP-17ML!

I'm sure you will be able to check this info on your side , for instance german or bulgarian ML cockpits, i am assuming you will find ASP-17MLs there...

I dont wanna rush with conclusions here , but maby , just maby there is a solid tangible way to diferentiate between an ML and a so called MLA...i know from what i could gather around that the MLA designation was not taken into VVS service , it suposedly was an unoficial designation of the late model MLs with ASP-17 sights and capability to fire R-24s...adding to the confusion that the bulgarians call their ML 23-12As as MLAs , i guess the result is obvious!

But again , i dont wanna rush to conclusions, i might be wrong in all the above!

Anyway pics ...first the 3 cockpit , then a czech ML...

Bingo, I'm glad that you have taken those words right out of my mouth, but regarding the R-24 capability though I`m not sure. I assume a small modification had to be carried out on the weapon control system to be able to fire the R-24, even though late produced ML/MLA might have this feature from the beginning. Hopefully Chris will come and explain details how German MLA were suddenly able to use R-24 even if they were older than Czech ones. Btw. the Czech ML/MLA as I have seen recently has the designation "23-12A" written in its logbook.  :P  


It has been suggested that later model Soviet MiG-23ML had ASP-17 and Sapfir-23MLA (N006) radars, leading to the unofficial MiG-23MLA designation.
Hmm, I never understood it in this way. Could you please point at source who is suggesting that the Sapfir-23MLA is the N-006 and that only late soviet Mig-23ML got it? Did they specify construction numbers of those soviet MLA, otherwise how would we ever be able to identify them?. Clearly, the publication from Sergei Burdin, Mig-23 part2 is denying that. Please realize that it is also written that since 1981 the whole MLA production went abroad.

Excerpt from Czech izd. 23-12A manual.  

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2010, 02:23:47 am »
I never said only Soviet late ML models got it. As far as I understood it export MLs were late production MLs, so presumably Warpac at least got Sapfir-23MLAE as opposed to an export variant of the Sapfir-23ML in their MLs, along with ASP-17 gunsights.

I can't confirm that N006 = Sapfir-23MLA, but what else can it be?  N003 is Sapfir-23ML, N008 is Sapfir-23MLA-2.

Its possible N006 was a wholly different radar only used on MiG-23P, but AFAIK -23P changes were more about upgrades to datalinks etc.
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Offline lancer21

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2010, 03:05:34 am »
How about this ?

Safir-23ML-Izd 324ML( early ML , ASP-23 sight)
Safir-23MLA-Izd. N-003( late ML-the unoficial MLA?- ASP-17ML sight), export Safir-23MLAE-izd N-003E?...we know for sure that german , bulgarian , cezch MLs all have N-003E on their nose ...tho Mrdetonator , how exactly that czech ML manual excerpt translates, i'm curious why they mention both S-23MLA and S-23MLAE there ...
Safir-23P-Izd N-006( ASP-23P sight)
Safir-23MLA-2-Izd.N-008( export S-23MLAE-2, izd N-008E)


Offline mrdetonator

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2010, 04:40:51 am »
How about this ?

Safir-23ML-Izd 324ML( early ML , ASP-23 sight)
Safir-23MLA-Izd. N-003( late ML-the unoficial MLA?- ASP-17ML sight), export Safir-23MLAE-izd N-003E?...we know for sure that german , bulgarian , cezch MLs all have N-003E on their nose ...tho Mrdetonator , how exactly that czech ML manual excerpt translates, i'm curious why they mention both S-23MLA and S-23MLAE there ...
Safir-23P-Izd N-006( ASP-23P sight)
Safir-23MLA-2-Izd.N-008( export S-23MLAE-2, izd N-008E)

Well, you see we do have different opinions, but I still think the Izd.324ML is the same(almost the same) as the N-003, although one look at the radar panel of early Mig-23ML would be enough to see difference there. Find a high-res cockpit picture somewhere!
The manual is describing fire control system designated S-23MLA which included radar Sapfir-23MLAE, and so on....

Offline mrdetonator

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2010, 05:38:21 am »
I never said only Soviet late ML models got it. As far as I understood it export MLs were late production MLs, so presumably Warpac at least got Sapfir-23MLAE as opposed to an export variant of the Sapfir-23ML in their MLs, along with ASP-17 gunsights.

I can't confirm that N006 = Sapfir-23MLA, but what else can it be?  N003 is Sapfir-23ML, N008 is Sapfir-23MLA-2.

Its possible N006 was a wholly different radar only used on MiG-23P, but AFAIK -23P changes were more about upgrades to datalinks etc.
I merely wanted to know your source, where you have been reading it.
Regarding N006, I think it is similar to the N003 when talking range, radar controls and panels,  but with bettered interaction/automatization with other onboard systems like the SAU-23P, ASP-23P, ARL-SM and other, thus they changed the name to N006. Well, thats just my theory... :D

Offline lancer21

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #83 on: February 14, 2010, 08:09:40 am »
How about this ?

Safir-23ML-Izd 324ML( early ML , ASP-23 sight)
Safir-23MLA-Izd. N-003( late ML-the unoficial MLA?- ASP-17ML sight), export Safir-23MLAE-izd N-003E?...we know for sure that german , bulgarian , cezch MLs all have N-003E on their nose ...tho Mrdetonator , how exactly that czech ML manual excerpt translates, i'm curious why they mention both S-23MLA and S-23MLAE there ...
Safir-23P-Izd N-006( ASP-23P sight)
Safir-23MLA-2-Izd.N-008( export S-23MLAE-2, izd N-008E)

Well, you see we do have different opinions, but I still think the Izd.324ML is the same(almost the same) as the N-003, although one look at the radar panel of early Mig-23ML would be enough to see difference there. Find a high-res cockpit picture somewhere!
The manual is describing fire control system designated S-23MLA which included radar Sapfir-23MLAE, and so on....

All i could find regarding the early Mig-23ML and the P is these pics ...they come from the same book...i think we need to find other early MLs and look at the cockpit and nose stencils, if we can find more than one ML with both ASP-23 sight and Izd.324 stencils , and IF we can find soviet MLs with ASP-17 and Izd.N-003 stencils , and IF we know for sure they were operational examples , then it might be a chance that they are indeed different-the radars i men ! ( i know , alot of IFs , but unfortunately thats all we got now ...)...wish i could travel to Mother Russia myself, but thats out of my grasp!

Also , here is what a guy on another forum posted...

Quote
MiG-23MLA existed.

Sources form a friend of mine.

MiG-23MLA factory code 32-12A

in production - 1978~ 83 750-770 planes, ~ 600 for VVS, 560 of them converted to MLD (32-18) in 1982-85

- for VVS only 0390310388~ 0390322399,

And all MiG-23MLA use name of MiG-23ML in VVS

Do those serial numbers mean anything to you ? ( sorry , this is not within my knowledge)? Can it tell when were they produced? these serials are obviously higher than the aforementioned early ML 0390308260...

Anyway the pics...

« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 08:12:10 am by lancer21 »

Offline mrdetonator

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #84 on: February 17, 2010, 11:30:07 am »


Also , here is what a guy on another forum posted...

Quote
MiG-23MLA existed.

Sources form a friend of mine.

MiG-23MLA factory code 32-12A

in production - 1978~ 83 750-770 planes, ~ 600 for VVS, 560 of them converted to MLD (32-18) in 1982-85
- for VVS only 0390310388~ 0390322399,
And all MiG-23MLA use name of MiG-23ML in VVS
Do those serial numbers mean anything to you ? ( sorry , this is not within my knowledge)? Can it tell when were they produced? these serials are obviously higher than the aforementioned early ML 0390308260...

Well, for example if you have aircraft Mig-23 logbooks stating exact date of first flights or a date when it entered service in the airforce you can put some order to those serial numbers. If last Mig-23ML produced for VVS ended with serial 0390322399, then it happened sometimes mid 1981 what also fits with what is written in many publications.

Offline mrdetonator

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #85 on: February 17, 2010, 02:03:13 pm »
Almost forgot that I found two ML stenciled izd.324ML, one is in Belarus aerodrome Shchuchin, the other one in Zhulyani aviation museum near Kiev, Ukraine.

Mig-23ML with serial no. 0390308260
http://photofile.name/users/flashlight/3236846/


Mig-23ML with serial no. 0390310389
http://litnik.in.ua/content/view/182/82/

Offline lancer21

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #86 on: February 17, 2010, 02:42:32 pm »
Great! I think 030860 is the same one from the book ...as for the other one , if the guy i quoted was right about the MLA , that should have been the second one ! I've been stareing at this second one , and maby my eyesight is bad , but is it saying there "RLSN-324"? dont think you have any info on what sight it had in the cockpit is it ? ???

Well its all confusing now, think my MLA theory is wobbling( but again you mentioned about modifications being introuced progresively ,  perfectly true offcourse ...the Mig-23 etalon 1971 and the Mig-23M follow the same pattern for instance-in that modifications were introduced gradually, and they ended up overlapping, i've seen for instance one that looks like an M , feels like an M , but it has etalon 1971 wing pylons!

Thanks for your help in finding these, i really apreciate it ! unfortunately all i can do is to just filter whatever i can find on the net and TRY to put two and two together ...please if you can a find some  russian MLs with N-003 stencils on them , let me know ...thanks again!

« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 02:45:48 pm by lancer21 »

Offline lancer21

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #87 on: February 23, 2010, 03:05:34 pm »
Recently theres another little issue that made me think ...namely the KDS-23 chaff flare dispenser ALLEGEDLY built into the centerline pylon on the earlier  Mig-27 and some Mig-23 models( export MLD?)

The installation on the Su-17M3/Su-22 is quite clear ( built into the spine ) its also clear on the Mig-27M et seq...I also remember quite clear about the M demonstrator with MLD wing notches who has two KDS-23 flush on top of the fixed wing glove( still hope to re-locate those pics ..subject of another thread)

However, i still havent seen  a pic or a drawing , something about the pylon built in dispenser ...does anyone have more info ?( that configuration makes me think , if the blinking flares somehow ignite by accident when the drop tank is still on , that aint gonna look good!)

Thanks!

Offline lancer21

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #88 on: February 25, 2010, 02:47:52 pm »
I could say NVM on this one, i found what i was looking for in Burdin's book...(what is PKiVP stands for btw?)

Offline John Cool

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #89 on: May 06, 2010, 03:34:40 am »
VP-23 (ВП-23) probably stands for Винтовы Преобразовател (screw converter).
On the other hand I have absolutely no idea what the "PK" (ПК) thing is.

Offline mandeb48

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #90 on: August 30, 2010, 09:26:30 pm »
some questions:
Why the soviet replace the gunsight ASP-23 for ASP-17?
Was the ASP-23 a HUD or a Gyro gunsigth? How good was it?
Can anyone identify the HUD at the minute 2:04?



Thanks very muchs.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 09:30:50 pm by mandeb48 »

Offline consealed

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #91 on: February 22, 2012, 03:33:34 am »
Anyone can make a comparison to Thomson Cyrano IV radar which equipped on Mirage IIIF?
The key to any great story not is who or what, when or where, but why

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #92 on: May 01, 2013, 01:37:10 pm »
Gentlemen,

Sorry to join the discussion so late, but I have a few questions regarding the radars used on the MiG-23s used by the Iraqi Air Force, especially regarding the nomenclature of the designations used...

- The MiG-23MS used the Jay Bird radar, aka RP-22SM (correct subdesignation?), Almaz-23. Is this *exactly* the same as the radar used on their MiG-21bis or are there designation differences?
- The MiG-23MF used the Saphir-23E radar. Does it also have an RP-XX or N-XXX designation?
- The MiG-23ML used the Saphir-23ML radar. Does it also have an RP-XX or N-XXX designation?

Impossible to get exact answers, of course, but does anybody have an idea what would be the typical maximum range of these radars against fighter sized targets?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Regards,

Sander

Offline lancer21

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #93 on: May 08, 2013, 02:35:35 pm »
Hi there Sander,

Regarding detection ranges against fighter size ( MiG-21 type ) targets , i can recall the following ( if more informed folks have better info, please  do post) 

RP-22SMA  Safir-21 18km detection, 12km track ( i assume the figures for Almaz-23 installed on MiG-23MS  must be similar)
Safir-23E  not sure if it was also called RP-23DE ( there must be a discussion about it earlier in this topic ?), i think it's about 35-40  km detection vs MiG-21 type target.
Safir-23ML (or MLE?)  also known as N-003E in export form ( not sure if also called RP-23MLE or similar), 55km detection vs. MIG-21 target.

« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 02:37:07 pm by lancer21 »

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #94 on: May 11, 2013, 05:16:18 am »
1st Generation - inverse Cassegrain antennas

Sapfir-23
Prototype radar.

RP-23L / Izdelyie 323L
MIG-23 (23-11, Izdelyie 2, "MiG-23 etalon 1971") Pulse only, no lookdown circuits.

Sapfir-23D
Early production Soviet MiG-23M (23-11M, Izdeliye 2M), first version with lookdown modes.
 
Sapfir-23D-III / Izdelyie 323D-III
Later production MiG-23M. More lookdown modes.

Sapfir-23E / RP-23E / Izdeliye 323E
MiG-23MF (23-11A) Export version of Sapfir-23D-III

2nd Generation - Twist cassegrain antenna, solid state electronics.

Sapfir-23ML / N-003 / Izdeliye  323ML / Ametist
Fitted to early Soviet MiG-23ML(23-12) produced between 1976 -1978. Weighs 475kg (166kg lighter than 323D-III) due to lightweight twist-cassegrain antenna and more advanced electronics.

Sapfir-23P / N-006 / Ametist
MiG-23P (23-14, Izdeliye 6) interceptor of 1977. Added improved long range detection at high altitudes i.e. with no clutter.

Sapfir-23MLA / Izdeliye  324ML(?)
Added R-24 compatibility?Later Soviet MiG-23MLs (23-12, Izdeliye 3) from 1978, also added capabilities of PVO MiG-23P's N006 back to VVS MiG-23MLs.

Sapfir-23MLAE / N-003E / Ametist
MiG-23ML (23-12A) Export.

Sapfir-23MLA-2 / N-008 / Ametist
Used on Soviet MiG-23MLD

Sapfir-23MLAE-2 / N-008E
Used on MiG-23MLD export versions.
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #95 on: May 11, 2013, 05:29:55 am »
Noticed something - looking at what I believe are the factory designations of the MiG-23 family (?)


Variant  /  OKB / Factory

MiG-23 etalon 1971 /  Izdeliye 23-11 / Izdeliye 2

MiG-23M /  Izdeliye 23-11 / Izdeliye 2M

MiG-23ML / Izdeliye 23-12 / Izdeliye 3

MiG-23P / Izdeliye 23-12 / Izdeliye 6

Note that N003 is mounted on Izdeliye 3, N006 on Izdeliye 6. Meaningful or coincidence?  If MiG-23MLD was Izdeliye 8 this theory is completed :)
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Offline Gorka L Martinez Mezo

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #96 on: September 10, 2013, 04:29:00 am »
Sapfir-23D
Early production Soviet MiG-23M (23-11M, Izdeliye 2M), first version with lookdown modes.
Does anyone has details on how those "lookdown circuits" work in these early, non Doppler capable, radar sets? I have the infamous Cyrano IV with MTI radar manual digitally edited by Combat 360 of South Africa some years ago and have also interviewed Spanish F-1 pilots from the era, with conflicting conclusions. Maybe the Soviet method may shed some light on the issue......

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #97 on: September 21, 2013, 03:06:26 pm »
Sorry for bad English, this information from russian sources

MiG-23S / 23-21, 23-11S / Izdeliye 22 (1969-1970, 50)

MiG-23 etalon 1971 /  23-11

MiG-23M / 23-11M (1973-1976, 8000)

MiG-23ML / 23-12 (1976-1981/1985-for export)

MiG-23P / 23-14 (1978-..., only for Soviet air defence)

MiG-23MLA / 23-12A (1978-1983)

MiG-23MLD / 23-18 (1981-...)

MiG-23MLAE / 23-19 - 23-12A Variant "B" for export

MiG-23MLAE-2 / 23-22A - 23-18 Variant "A" for WarPac


Sapfir-23 / RP-22SM - MiG-23S, HUD ASP-PFD, the same radar that have later MiG-21s

Sapfir-23L / Izdelyie 323L - MiG-23 "1971"

Sapfir-23D / Izdelyie 323D - MiG-23M, HUD ASP-23D

Sapfir-23D-III / Izdelyie 323D-III - MiG-23M, HUD ASP-23D

Sapfir-23E / Izdeliye 323E - MiG-23MF, HUD ASP-23DE


Sapfir-23ML / Izdeliye 323ML - MiG-23ML, HUD ASP-23DTsM

Sapfir-23ML / Izdeliye 324ML - probably upgraded version of 323ML compatible with R-24 air-to-air missiles

Sapfir-23P /  Izdeliye 323P - MiG-23P, HUD ASP-23DTsM-P

Sapfir-23MLA / N-003 Ametist - MiG-23MLA (radar included expanded "БС" modes - БСI, БСII, БСIII), HUD ASP-17ML

Sapfir-23MLAE / N-003E Ametist - MiG-23MLAE, HUD ASP-17ML

Sapfir-23PA /  N-006 Ametist - later MiG-23P (six frequency modes allowed automatically controlled interception procedure, first Ametist with solid-state electronics, for Soviet air defence only, not for export), HUD ASP-17ML

Sapfir-23MLA-2 / N-008 Ametist - MiG-23MLD (included special ''ГОР" ("Mountaine") mode for actions over hills and mountains), HUD ASP-17ML

Sapfir-23MLAE-2 / N-008E Ametist - MiG-23MLAE-2 23-22A, HUD ASP-17ML





« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 05:00:43 pm by Flashback »

Offline Flashback

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #98 on: September 21, 2013, 04:43:05 pm »
Was the ASP-23 a HUD or a Gyro gunsigth? How good was it?

I`ll try to explain )) In Soviet air forces ASP sights were not designated as HUD. This term was only in West. ASP designated as SEI - СЕИ (система единой индикации - systema edinoy indikacii). It could indicate targeting information from radar, IRST and gyro gun sight.

In my opinion ASP was better than F-4 Phantom`s ASG. American sight indicated in 1960-1970s only range-rate mark...

Here is ASP-23D:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Bulgaria---Air/Mikoyan-Gurevich-MiG-23MF/2255531/L/&sid=704aa70dc371191251ac3a632e5db0fe

And here is ASP-17:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Bulgaria---Air/Mikoyan-Gurevich-MiG-23MLD/1427515/L/&sid=704aa70dc371191251ac3a632e5db0fe
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 04:52:44 pm by Flashback »

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #99 on: September 24, 2013, 02:32:31 am »
MiG-23 used the ASP-23/ASP-17 to display radar and IRST data, so it is much more than just a gyro gunsight.
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Offline Gorka L Martinez Mezo

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #100 on: September 25, 2013, 11:52:34 pm »
Same for the Mirage F-1. Those weren't "real" HUDs but could provide more information than a simple optical gyro gunsight.

Offline mandeb48

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #101 on: October 24, 2013, 08:19:21 am »
Thanks for you answer. :)




thanks for your reply. Can anyone deepen the technical differences between ASP-PF, ASP-23D and ASP-17ML?

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #102 on: October 24, 2013, 09:01:20 pm »
ASP- 17 in close air combat mode allowed to use target designation for R- 60M by moving the reticle using the joystick`s knob "Label -C" ("Metka-Ts" in Russian).
When this mode is selected the movable reflector of ASP- 17 HUD "slides " forward , increasing the field of view and targeting area.
On airplanes with ASP-23 was not so.

The number of symbols displayed on the aircraft with ASP- 17 was significantly increased, which allowed not to use the special indicator panel of ground controlled interception
("Tablo razovyh komand" in Russian) , which was located under the head of ASP -23 earlier.

The picture quality on the reflector of ASP- 17 was significantly better than on airplanes with ASP- 23.

Finally, in itself ASP -17 significantly improved capabilities for air-to-ground weapon delivery

Offline mandeb48

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #103 on: October 25, 2013, 05:47:25 am »
thanks very much Flashback :)

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #104 on: February 17, 2014, 11:38:34 pm »
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 11:41:18 pm by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Offline Miguel Aresta

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #105 on: June 26, 2014, 11:15:17 am »
Does anybody have info on the AVM-23 analog computer ?

Offline SPuitH

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #106 on: March 09, 2016, 11:09:45 am »
Gents,

We're having an interesting discussion on ACIG regarding the use of the R-24R on the MiG-23MF.

Is the MiG-23MF capable of using the R-24R despite the fact that it has a different radar than the MiG-23ML?

Thanks in advance!

Regards,

Sander

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #107 on: March 09, 2016, 11:37:26 am »
I believe not. It wasn't even the first Sapfir-23ML (323ML) which added R-24 compatibility but the upgraded Izdeliye 324ML.
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Offline SPuitH

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #108 on: March 09, 2016, 12:15:41 pm »
Thanks Overscan!

Had a hunch that this was the case, too.

Kind regards,

Sander

Offline crossiathh

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #109 on: March 10, 2016, 02:20:52 am »
Interesting question. Theoretically I see no problem to use the R-24 with the MiG-23MF.

Talking about the German LSK/LV MiG-23ML, which was delivered with the N003E and the R-23R/T (the R-24R/T was not delivered before 1986):
The first delivered batch of the German MiG-23ML was not "R-24 ready", the later (1985) was.
The difference was however, that the AVM-23 of the weapon system of the first batch MiG-23ML did not had the necessary parameters of the R-24 (Dmin, Dmax, Heading etc...) ready, to exploit the full capabilities of the R-24 (basically the better range, the better ECM was an advantage of the RGS-24 seeker of the missile) and the R-24 was treated like a R-23. One have to say, this never happens with the German LSK/LV.
The later batch AVM-23 already had this parameters right at delivery and the first batch MiG-23ML's AVM-23 were tuned to recognize the R-24 later on in the squadron. Finally all German MiG-23ML were capable to use the R-24 to full extend. Additionally you need the APU-23M1E, because you could not use the R-24R with the former APU-23M. That's it.

In turn this could mean that there should be no basic problem to use the R-24 with the MiG-23MF as long as you have the APU-23M1E launch rail attached and the missile would be recognized and used as a R-23. I don't know if the AVM-23 of the 323E could be modified for the R-24 parameters, but I asked a former German LSK/LV weapon specialist and I hope to get an answer.

However, IMHO the more important question is: If an air force have MiG-23MF and MiG-23ML/MLD and a stock of both missile types, does it really make sens to use the R-24 with the MiG-23MF?!

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2016, 02:38:49 am »
Maybe, though it working with 323ML doesn't necessarily mean it would work with 323E in a MiG-23MF. You wouldn't get any range benefits, but it might be possible.
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Offline Gorka L Martinez Mezo

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #111 on: August 16, 2016, 03:19:11 am »
I don't know if anybody else has read Osprey's Duel 72 F-15C vs MIG-23/25 by Douglas Dildy&Tom Cooper. While the overall quality of the Duel series is highly variable, I was quite surprised by the description made by the authors about the MIG-23ML "Flogger-G" and its RP-23MLAE Sapfir III (N003E). Here's an excerpt from the book:
"For this version, the Sapfir had been redesigned for engaging only airborne targets in the “front quarter” (head-to-head). The radar had no capability for detecting or tracking targets it was chasing (i.e. the “rear hemisphere”)"

On rear engagements:

"Because the Sapfir III was designed exclusively for front-quarter intercepts and R-24R employment, the TP-23 IRSTS was provided to allow MiG-23 pilots to engage targets in their “rear hemisphere.” In a “stern chase” look-down scenario the TP-23 could locate a high-speed, afterburning (i.e. thermally “hot”) target ahead and the S-23 system would “slave” the seeker head of the IR-guided R-24T, the lock-on being indicated by an aural tone in the pilot’s headset. Range determination was, however, problematic and exacerbated because, in the “tail chase” mode, the R-24 had significantly reduced range, depending on the MiG’s overtake airspeed."

Comments anyone? Undoubtly this is a major limitation.

On the "look down" capability:

"For closing targets at or above the “Flogger’s” altitude, the radar could track (“lockonto”) a target inside 18.9nm (35km), which was approximately the maximum range of the R-24R missile when fired head-on at high altitude. To detect targets below the radar’s altitude, the AVM-23 computer used an “external coherence method” to detect a target passing across/through the “clutter” caused by the earth’s radar return (called “moving target indicator”). This computer process had severe limitations due to numerous “blind zones” in multiples of the radar’s PRF, being able to only detect targets in the duration between successive pulses, and was limited to much shorter detection ranges (16.2nm/30km)."

This seems similar to the Cyrano IVM "Look down" system, which, accoding to the pilots I`ve met, was quite unsuccesful.

Offline Pit

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #112 on: August 28, 2016, 12:12:49 pm »
Hi Gorka,

You can find the details you require in this same thread, page 1, the details are from MiG-23ML's weapon systems manual as provided by the user Mr. Detonator, nearly 10 years ago.

Quote
The weapon system selector switch “SIST” with modes:

-RL (BSV, BSV - Delta H4, BSV - Delta H1, SMV, MV)
-BS (I BS, II BS, III BS)
-T (T I, T II, T III, T – Phi 0-I, T – Phi 0-II)
-NVG

The switch IZL-EKV-VYK, impulse transmitter  (emit/equivalent/off)
The switch NAVED-AVT-RUCHN, the GCI datalink ARL-SML on/off
The switch MSKC-PPS-ZPS, low-speed target engagements/front/rear hemisphere 
The switch PU-VYK, parametric amplifier ON-OFF

The modes BSV, BSV-delta H4, BSV-delta H1, SMV, MV are switched automatically according to aircraft altitude Hs (DV-30 barometric sensor) and the antenna position ”Delta H” switch. The modes I BS, II BS, III BS must be switched manually. When the switch NAVED AVT/RUCHN is set to AVT, the radar mode selection is done automatically by GCI command link  (ARL-SML). The radar scan patterns under GCI are better optimized due to PPS/ZPS aspect. The one-way commands from GCI are displayed on special symbol indicator on the HUD sight. Pilot can interrupt the GCI anytime setting the switch to RUCHN.

The mode BSV for high/medium altitudes, all-aspect intercepts (Hc<>=Hs), pulse width ~4 µsec, PRF 1Khz, switching altitude Hs>4,5km, Beam width in search 2,5°. Scan patters depend on NAVED AVT/RUCH switch position. Beam width in STT  1.7°.

The modes BSV-delta H4, BSV-delta H1 for high/medium altitudes are useful for searching targets on earth background not using the Doppler shifts (MTI). For all-aspect intercepts, switching altitude is 4.5km>Hs>1,5km. It uses half/third PRF compared to BSV mode.  The “differential compensator device” (DKP) filters false ground signals out. For greater search range the parametric amplifier can be switched on. The receiver sensitivity gains of 5-10% (dB/mW).

The modes BS (I BS, II BS, III BS) for high/medium altitudes are used for all-aspect intercepts (Hs<>=Hc) in case of false targets (clouds) and for picking up targets on earth background by using reference coherent signal received by radar side-lobes. The “III BS” mode has the largest search range of 65km, the “I BS” the smallest one of 27km. The most used mode is the “II BS” with 45km search range. The "III BS" mode works only as a search mode. The FFT Doppler filtering techniques are used to select moving targets flying on the earth background.  The so-called “blind speeds” are overcome by changing PRF pulses during each scan line. More than 90% of “blind speeds” are covered, what ensures good MTI.

The mode SMV for medium/low altitudes, only rear-aspect intercepts (Hs<Hc), The switching altitude is Hs<1.5km, pulse width ~1 µsec, PRF 1Khz. The scan patters depend on NAVED AVT/RUCH switch position.

The mode MV is used to engage targets flying at low altitudes on the earth background. It is only for rear-aspect intercepts (Hs>Hc), The switching altitude Hs<1.5km, switch “Delta H”<0, pulse width ~1 µsec, Beam width in search 2,5°. The MV mode uses the MTI based on Doppler shifts.

Do you recommend the afore-mentioned book?

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #113 on: August 28, 2016, 12:16:04 pm »
As far as I know, the AVM-23 electro-mechanical computer controls the weapon engagement zones calculations for the employment of the missiles and guns, and is not related with the signal processing of incoming radar signals, as it is not a digital signal processor, the radar itself relies on a bank of physical Doppler filters in the radar-receiver device for that.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #114 on: August 28, 2016, 01:46:34 pm »
The description by Dildy and Cooper is not really accurate to the best of my knowledge, however MrDetonator's post is specifically from a WarPac MiG-23ML manual and it is possible some of the modes listed were not available to the Iraqi MiG-23ML.

The MiG-23ML's radar had a lot of different modes and it was important to select the right one for the intercept geometry - pilot skill level was quite important.  With a skillful pilot, and a well-maintained radar, it was a reasonable system (though yes, not a true pulse-doppler radar). MiG-29's radar was much, much easier for the average pilot.

Its important to realise ALL radars tend to have best range against closing (head-on) engagements. Some early pulse-doppler radars do indeed only detect closing targets which I think is what Tom Cooper believes to be the case for the N003.
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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #115 on: August 28, 2016, 05:32:00 pm »
Ahmad Rushdi said Iraqi MiG-23ML had Sapfir-23M radar in this topic many years ago.
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Offline Gorka L Martinez Mezo

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Re: Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics
« Reply #116 on: September 02, 2016, 02:07:12 pm »
Well, I should have through the whole thread before posting again! :D In any case, I was quite dumbfolded by the information given on the book I made an "impulse post".

Hi Gorka,

You can find the details you require in this same thread, page 1, the details are from MiG-23ML's weapon systems manual as provided by the user Mr. Detonator, nearly 10 years ago.

Quote
The weapon system selector switch “SIST” with modes:

-RL (BSV, BSV - Delta H4, BSV - Delta H1, SMV, MV)
-BS (I BS, II BS, III BS)
-T (T I, T II, T III, T – Phi 0-I, T – Phi 0-II)
-NVG

The switch IZL-EKV-VYK, impulse transmitter  (emit/equivalent/off)
The switch NAVED-AVT-RUCHN, the GCI datalink ARL-SML on/off
The switch MSKC-PPS-ZPS, low-speed target engagements/front/rear hemisphere 
The switch PU-VYK, parametric amplifier ON-OFF

The modes BSV, BSV-delta H4, BSV-delta H1, SMV, MV are switched automatically according to aircraft altitude Hs (DV-30 barometric sensor) and the antenna position ”Delta H” switch. The modes I BS, II BS, III BS must be switched manually. When the switch NAVED AVT/RUCHN is set to AVT, the radar mode selection is done automatically by GCI command link  (ARL-SML). The radar scan patterns under GCI are better optimized due to PPS/ZPS aspect. The one-way commands from GCI are displayed on special symbol indicator on the HUD sight. Pilot can interrupt the GCI anytime setting the switch to RUCHN.

The mode BSV for high/medium altitudes, all-aspect intercepts (Hc<>=Hs), pulse width ~4 µsec, PRF 1Khz, switching altitude Hs>4,5km, Beam width in search 2,5°. Scan patters depend on NAVED AVT/RUCH switch position. Beam width in STT  1.7°.

The modes BSV-delta H4, BSV-delta H1 for high/medium altitudes are useful for searching targets on earth background not using the Doppler shifts (MTI). For all-aspect intercepts, switching altitude is 4.5km>Hs>1,5km. It uses half/third PRF compared to BSV mode.  The “differential compensator device” (DKP) filters false ground signals out. For greater search range the parametric amplifier can be switched on. The receiver sensitivity gains of 5-10% (dB/mW).

The modes BS (I BS, II BS, III BS) for high/medium altitudes are used for all-aspect intercepts (Hs<>=Hc) in case of false targets (clouds) and for picking up targets on earth background by using reference coherent signal received by radar side-lobes. The “III BS” mode has the largest search range of 65km, the “I BS” the smallest one of 27km. The most used mode is the “II BS” with 45km search range. The "III BS" mode works only as a search mode. The FFT Doppler filtering techniques are used to select moving targets flying on the earth background.  The so-called “blind speeds” are overcome by changing PRF pulses during each scan line. More than 90% of “blind speeds” are covered, what ensures good MTI.

The mode SMV for medium/low altitudes, only rear-aspect intercepts (Hs<Hc), The switching altitude is Hs<1.5km, pulse width ~1 µsec, PRF 1Khz. The scan patters depend on NAVED AVT/RUCH switch position.

The mode MV is used to engage targets flying at low altitudes on the earth background. It is only for rear-aspect intercepts (Hs>Hc), The switching altitude Hs<1.5km, switch “Delta H”<0, pulse width ~1 µsec, Beam width in search 2,5°. The MV mode uses the MTI based on Doppler shifts.

So I understand the radar (at least in this version, should have been capable to track a fleeing target? OF course, it MAY be possible the Iraqis had no access to the full ML radar modes as mentioned.

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Do you recommend the afore-mentioned book?

The Osprey Duel series had great shifts on quality; in this particular case I wouldn't recommend the book. While it tries to get into hard data on weapon systems, it reallys doesn't clear many things up and, per the said comments on the radar systems, it looks like the info isn't too reliable.

Curiously enough, the F-15 systems are quite lightly covered.