Navy Sub Force Boss: Future Torpedoes May Range Out to 100 Miles

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http://www.seapowermagazine.org/stories/20150514-torpedo.html
 
I wonder how the data link would work? Wire (or fibre optic) guided torpedoes don't risk their signals being intercepted and allow two-way communication (certainly at those ranges the Sub won't be able to see what it is shooting at). Maybe some kind of highly directional transmitter?

I also wonder how big the torpedo would be? 533mm? With that kind of range and the sensors to acquire a target intelligently on its own?
 
I could see a use for a 100 mile plus ranged torpedo to attack enemy ports , have it creep in at a silent 20 knots and detonate at either a refuelling pier or use other sensors to pick out targets . alternatively have it able to hover in a shipping lane as a mobile mine . I think I read somewhere that old Mk 37's were turned into a mobile mine and were launched into a harbour or shipping channel and then sank to the bottom and awaited an acoustic signature to explode .

Still I was under the impression the Mk 48 ADCAP ranged out to 20 miles roughly and the Russians had wake homers able to do 60 plus in the 650 mm torpedo's .
 
Guys,
The Mk-48 ether has to increase its powered range with new tech. It's reached its limit in tankage and length for 688 tubes.
Seawolf could support a bigger diameter weapon thus increasing range. Far as guidance, longer spool for fiber optic line or old copper wire,which was used when I was in the USN. I helped load plenty of weapons on the 3 boats I was on.One possibility is though a UAV relay of data control by blue green laser link via buoy attached to weapon. This would allow updates.
 
Well, mid course would be very challenging.

In my view, unless new physics or way of sending data underwater be invented, this 100 Miles torpedo would be very difficult or have serious restrictions of depth and speed during employment.
 
moonbeamsts said:
Guys,
The Mk-48 ether has to increase its powered range with new tech. It's reached its limit in tankage and length for 688 tubes.
Seawolf could support a bigger diameter weapon thus increasing range. Far as guidance, longer spool for fiber optic line or old copper wire,which was used when I was in the USN. I helped load plenty of weapons on the 3 boats I was on.One possibility is though a UAV relay of data control by blue green laser link via buoy attached to weapon. This would allow updates.

Never understood the point of the larger tubes in the Seawolfs. Unless the rest of the fleet gets them, building weapons to take full advantage of the larger size will never happen.
 
sferrin said:
moonbeamsts said:
Guys,
The Mk-48 ether has to increase its powered range with new tech. It's reached its limit in tankage and length for 688 tubes.
Seawolf could support a bigger diameter weapon thus increasing range. Far as guidance, longer spool for fiber optic line or old copper wire,which was used when I was in the USN. I helped load plenty of weapons on the 3 boats I was on.One possibility is though a UAV relay of data control by blue green laser link via buoy attached to weapon. This would allow updates.

Never understood the point of the larger tubes in the Seawolfs. Unless the rest of the fleet gets them, building weapons to take full advantage of the larger size will never happen.
The Seawolf class were going to be the rest of the fleet. The initial buy was supposed to be 30, with an enhanced version to follow for a 60-ish boat class, by the time it had been cut down to single digits the tube diameter was locked in and there was no benefit to refitting them down. A new heavy torpedo design was penciled in for the late 90s to take advantage of the change, production of which would be ramped up over the lifetime of the new class.
 
stealthflanker said:
Well, mid course would be very challenging.

In my view, unless new physics or way of sending data underwater be invented, this 100 Miles torpedo would be very difficult or have serious restrictions of depth and speed during employment.

At the recent NavSeaAir Conference all the rage was far ranging autonomous underwater vehicles. Could you have these vehicles ranging far ahead of the submarine and the torpedo would link up to these vehicles half way to the target, or whatever, and they would supply the rest of the target solution?

http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/tech/2015/04/16/lduuv-test-san-fransisco-san-diego-2016/25839499/
 
Moose said:
sferrin said:
moonbeamsts said:
Guys,
The Mk-48 ether has to increase its powered range with new tech. It's reached its limit in tankage and length for 688 tubes.
Seawolf could support a bigger diameter weapon thus increasing range. Far as guidance, longer spool for fiber optic line or old copper wire,which was used when I was in the USN. I helped load plenty of weapons on the 3 boats I was on.One possibility is though a UAV relay of data control by blue green laser link via buoy attached to weapon. This would allow updates.

Never understood the point of the larger tubes in the Seawolfs. Unless the rest of the fleet gets them, building weapons to take full advantage of the larger size will never happen.
The Seawolf class were going to be the rest of the fleet. The initial buy was supposed to be 30, with an enhanced version to follow for a 60-ish boat class, by the time it had been cut down to single digits the tube diameter was locked in and there was no benefit to refitting them down. A new heavy torpedo design was penciled in for the late 90s to take advantage of the change, production of which would be ramped up over the lifetime of the new class.

Sure, but when that didn't happen why didn't they continue to field them in the Virginia class?
 
Designing around larger tubes would have driven up the size of the sub with no great benefit, because there clearly wasn't going to be money for a new larger diameter torpedo any time soon.
 
In addition to TomS' points, in the late 90s when the NSSN was coming together the Navy was taking a long-range look at the future of undersea weapons. They came to the conclusion that a slightly wider conventional torpedo tube would essentially amount to a costly stopgap over the long term and was ultimately not worth the costs (in more than money) associated with adopting it fleetwide. The future is what we see in the secretive midsection "ocean interface" of the Carter and in the bow of the Block III and onward boats, new ways of doing business. Ultimately we'll see the conventional torpedo tube go the way of the complex missile handling systems of a Talos missile frigate, replaced with weapons stored externally as All Up Rounds. The torpedo room itself likely to evolve into/be replaced with a hangar of sorts for servicing UUVs. So might as well stick with the 533cm tubes (and compatible weapons) until we're ready for that leap.
 
I agree re trends in torpedo rooms except for two points: a) torpedo rooms will still be able to fire torpedoes since they have the significant advantage of allowing maintenance on the weapon. That's in addition to what you said though. B) these multi-mission spaces will get larger 'torpedo tubes' for diver lock out, DPV and non-standard UUV loads. Example Swedish design.
 
I'd expect future torpedoes to not need maintenance while at sea -- that's the point of the All-Up Round concept. The USN is already there with lightweight torpedoes -- Mk 54 is an AUR. I'm sure any future heavyweight will be an AUR as well.

I think the USN's preferred solution for larger lockout chambers, etc. is a set of large-diameter payload tube like in the SSGNs and new Virginias (especially Block IV).
 
bobbymike said:
At the recent NavSeaAir Conference all the rage was far ranging autonomous underwater vehicles. Could you have these vehicles ranging far ahead of the submarine and the torpedo would link up to these vehicles half way to the target, or whatever, and they would supply the rest of the target solution?

http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/tech/2015/04/16/lduuv-test-san-fransisco-san-diego-2016/25839499/

sure interesting.

Nonetheless how the torpedo will link up with the UUV or even how the Submarine contact the UUV is still open to question.
 
Moose said:
The Seawolf class were going to be the rest of the fleet. The initial buy was supposed to be 30, with an enhanced version to follow for a 60-ish boat class, by the time it had been cut down to single digits the tube diameter was locked in and there was no benefit to refitting them down. A new heavy torpedo design was penciled in for the late 90s to take advantage of the change, production of which would be ramped up over the lifetime of the new class.

Very interesting. Never knew about an enhanced Seawolf or new heavy torp. Do you have references?
I don't doubt you, I am just interested in the subject.
 
Bruno Anthony said:
Moose said:
The Seawolf class were going to be the rest of the fleet. The initial buy was supposed to be 30, with an enhanced version to follow for a 60-ish boat class, by the time it had been cut down to single digits the tube diameter was locked in and there was no benefit to refitting them down. A new heavy torpedo design was penciled in for the late 90s to take advantage of the change, production of which would be ramped up over the lifetime of the new class.

Very interesting. Never knew about an enhanced Seawolf or new heavy torp. Do you have references?
I don't doubt you, I am just interested in the subject.
I don't have much in the way of links for you, the Seawolf and heavy torp plan predate powerpoint and I don't know how many of the old reports can be found online. The 60-ish boat plan died as soon as it became clear the class was too expensive to replace the 688s, but even up until the launch of the Centurion program the Navy was looking at more affordable/multimission evolutions of the Seawolf hull for further boats. The wider torp never got very far, I think references to it can be found in the Norman Polmar books up until the mid-90s but mainly as an item on the wishlist not an active program.
 
http://news.usni.org/2015/05/14/comsubfor-connor-submarine-force-could-become-the-new-a2ad-threat

http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/06/game-changers-for-submarine-warfare.html
 
If you build something in to ensure the torpedo does not actually reverse course and kill the launch vessel, or commit fratricide against other torpedoes (i.e. program it to specifically ignore the sound of its own motor), a 100 mile torpedo would be the perfect thing for interdicting convoys. Two or three submarines spitting out a dozen or so of these things each from both sides and ahead could do some really severe damage, even if fired semi-blind into the general vicinity.


I think we will soon be entering an era of active, hard-kill countermeasures against torpedoes. We will have no choice, especially since even major warships can no longer be relied upon to survive multiple hits, not in the current era of under-the-keel back-breakers and essentially unarmoured warships.
 
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/everything-you-need-know-about-the-us-navys-new-lethal-16413
 
http://seapowermagazine.org/stories/20180612-Aerojet.html

ONR Awards Aerojet Rocketdyne Contract to Develop Prototype Torpedo Propulsion System

AeroJetPhotoSACRAMENTO, Calif. — Aerojet Rocketdyne has been awarded a $2.6 million Phase I contract by the Office of Naval Research (ONR) to develop a prototype torpedo propulsion system under the agency’s Torpedo Advanced Propulsion System (TAPS) program, the company announced in a June 12 release.

The primary goal of the program is to improve the engine efficiency of the U.S. Navy’s Mk48 heavyweight torpedo.

“Aerojet Rocketdyne began developing torpedo propulsion systems in the early 1950s,” said Eileen Drake, Aerojet Rocketdyne’s CEO and president. “We will carry this legacy forward as we develop the technologies needed to enhance the capability of the Mk48, which is used by the U.S. Navy on all classes of submarines as their most capable anti-submarine and anti-surface weapon.”
 

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