What if the World’s Most Expensive Fighter Planes Can’t Defeat Our Enemies?

CxxTxx

CxxTxx

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Interesting article that worries about the F-35, and even the F-22. (One could say this stuff is just common sense, but that will probably start a fight.)

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/418430/what-if-worlds-most-expensive-fighter-planes-cant-defeat-our-enemies-mike-fredenburg
 
Abraham Gubler said:
Same old BS repackaged in a new version. File alongside anti-vaccers, bigfoot sightings and offensive á l'outrance.
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I sure hope you're right. Because A LOT of people are going to be really, really embarrassed if you're not. It's a brave New World I suppose, where the importance of range and maneuverability, and area rule and wing-loading don't apply to trillion dollar "strike fighters"...and Lanchester's equations are no longer relevant. Yep, I sure hope you're right...
 
CxxTxx said:
Abraham Gubler said:
Same old BS repackaged in a new version. File alongside anti-vaccers, bigfoot sightings and offensive á l'outrance.
Click to expand...

I sure hope you're right. Because A LOT of people are going to be really, really embarrassed if you're not. It's a brave New World I suppose, where the importance of range and maneuverability, and area rule and wing-loading don't apply to trillion dollar "strike fighters"...and Lanchester's equations are no longer relevant. Yep, I sure hope you're right...
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This crap again? Pretty sure the DoD knows just a bit more about fighter development than some nobody at random "news" source. You do know this is an opinion piece right?

"STEALTH: ANOTHER PRICEY, UNPROVEN INVESTMENT"

"Unproven"? Yeah, about that. . . ::)
 
sferrin said:
You do know this is an opinion piece right?
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That's why I posted it--was amazed it appeared in NR. --> "National Review (N.R.) is a semimonthly magazine founded by author William F. Buckley, Jr., in 1955 and based in New York City. It describes itself as "America's most widely read and influential magazine and web site for conservative news, commentary, and opinion.""

When articles like this start appearing in places like the NR, I'm pretty sure that, "Houston: we are becoming seriously concerned that we may have a big, big problem."
 
The purpose of our Air Dominance strategy is to allow us to do whatever we want on the ground.


It's worked so far and the F-22/35 combo is designed to continue this strategy in future conflicts.
 
CxxTxx said:
When articles like this start appearing in places like the NR, I'm pretty sure that, "Houston: we are becoming seriously concerned that we may have a big, big problem."
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Uh, no. It's "what will attract eyeballs" first, second, and always. One only need actually read the article to see it contains all the usual catch phrases. From beginning to end it's innuendo and speculation by somebody simply trying to catch eyeballs. Instead of relying on the MSM, who generally can't find their own ass with both hands, check out places like F-16.net. You know, people who would actually know instead of some blowhard who gets paid to generate clicks.
 
But the problem is the price of the air support. With the F-22 and the F-35 the price went up drastically. And already the Dutch-bat during the Yugoslavia war was overrun because they did not get any air support.
 
I'm not the biggest fan of the F-35 program but this really isn't any more than a rehash of a load of tired arguments we've seen over and over. Anything with Pierre Sprey gets -100 for credibility, his biggest achievement is how he's got away with claiming to be become the "designer" of the F-16 and A-10 wihout anyone calling him out on it.
 
malipa said:
But the problem is the price of the air support. With the F-22 and the F-35 the price went up drastically. And already the Dutch-bat during the Yugoslavia war was overrun because they did not get any air support.
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How is that either aircraft's fault?
 
malipa said:
But the problem is the price of the air support. With the F-22 and the F-35 the price went up drastically. And already the Dutch-bat during the Yugoslavia war was overrun because they did not get any air support.
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The Dutchbat debacle was not a matter of cost. It was a political decision to send in troops without enough armament to enforce the peace. Requests from the batallion for air support (to other members of UNPROFOR) went unanswered, in part because the situation in Srebrenica was still unclear to UNPROFOR.

Since then, Dutch peacekeeping missions often included an air support component (F-16, Apache).
 
Re: What if the World’s Most Expensive Fighter Planes Can’t Defeat Our Enemies?

It has to have happened already...those (Groom Lake) Su-27s, Mig-23 and Mig -29s ever tested mock engagements against F-22s. Any where to get more info on this or is it Classified? Would be fun read.
 
I was at an air show with a friend, and we got chatting after hours to a Eurofighter chap who'd spent a tour on the F22.

"The scariest aircraft an enemy could ever face. If it's hunting you and flown as a war fighting mission would be, you'd never even know what killed you " was his honest reply when I asked for his thoughts.
 
Ian33 said:
I was at an air show with a friend, and we got chatting after hours to a Eurofighter chap who'd spent a tour on the F22.

"The scariest aircraft an enemy could ever face. If it's hunting you and flown as a war fighting mission would be, you'd never even know what killed you " was his honest reply when I asked for his thoughts.
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I read the same type of story but this was F-15 pilots I think at Red Flag the first time the F-22s were present (or it might have been the exercise they have in Alaska)

Anyway, the F-15 pilots said to paraphrase, "You never knew the F-22 was there until the air officials told you, you just died"
 
I wonder about the story regarding the Eurofighter's IRST picking out F-22s...? Would that happen in wartime?

The F-22 is terrifying, but I can't help but to wonder if cueing from multiple sensor systems and hybrid radar and multi-spectral visual/infra-red seekers couldn't pick out the bird. I'm sure someone is developing a large AAM or SAM with special sensors designed to kill high value low-observable targets.
 
Avimimus said:
I wonder about the story regarding the Eurofighter's IRST picking out F-22s...? Would that happen in wartime?

The F-22 is terrifying, but I can't help but to wonder if cueing from multiple sensor systems and hybrid radar and multi-spectral visual/infra-red seekers couldn't pick out the bird. I'm sure someone is developing a large AAM or SAM with special sensors designed to kill high value low-observable targets.
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This is something that the US, at least, looks at all the time. There are organizations dedicated to evaluating and testing countermeasures (and counter-countermeasures). They look at how expensive it would be for an adversary to counter a given technology - and they look at *everything*.


So to use you your example, networking many different sensors may be a viable way to detect a VLO aircraft. But is it good enough to track and hit it? Would it contribute in a meaningful way to the kill chain? What would it cost to build, deploy, and operate such a system? How long would it take country X to do so? What would it cost to protect the VLO aircraft from this technology?
 
Avimus is referring to a problem the Americans are now facing. The F 22 and indeed F 35 signatures were defined before QWIP irsts were envisioned. By having such long gestations into service both aircraft face threats never envisioned by those writing their kpi's and its associated JSF operational requirements document (JORD)
 
There is nothing magic about QWIP (quantum well infrared photodector). The D* (detectivity or Noise Equivalent Power) is not superior to photovoltaics/photoconductors. It is certainly better than microbolometers (the uncooled sensors now showing up in NVG goggles). QWIP sensors also require cryogenic cooling although a simple TEC (thermal electric cooler) can get you down to working temperatures. QWIP has been around for decades. However, as with all things electronic, production costs have dropped significantly. If you really want to boost your IRST, you need a bigger aperture and to practice thermal isolation so your own optical components don't generate ambient signals swamping the background. You also need some high level, realtime nonuniformity correction algorithms.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-_KiqiAc2g
 
Avimimus said:
I wonder about the story regarding the Eurofighter's IRST picking out F-22s...? Would that happen in wartime?

The F-22 is terrifying, but I can't help but to wonder if cueing from multiple sensor systems and hybrid radar and multi-spectral visual/infra-red seekers couldn't pick out the bird. I'm sure someone is developing a large AAM or SAM with special sensors designed to kill high value low-observable targets.
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Indeed, The F-15s are now saying: I didn't know a F-22 was around till I was decleared dead.
And now the IRST programs for the F-15 are popping up... hmmm
 
GJ33 said:
Avimimus said:
I wonder about the story regarding the Eurofighter's IRST picking out F-22s...? Would that happen in wartime?

The F-22 is terrifying, but I can't help but to wonder if cueing from multiple sensor systems and hybrid radar and multi-spectral visual/infra-red seekers couldn't pick out the bird. I'm sure someone is developing a large AAM or SAM with special sensors designed to kill high value low-observable targets.
Click to expand...

Indeed, The F-15s are now saying: I didn't know a F-22 was around till I was decleared dead.
And now the IRST programs for the F-15 are popping up... hmmm
Click to expand...
There's nothing out there that can take a Raptor! - SP
 
ubiquitous08 said:
The F 22 and indeed F 35 signatures were defined before QWIP irsts were envisioned.
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Nope.
 
It's the quantity-vs-quality argument rehashed again, but with the added wild-card that the F-22 and F-35 are high-prestige targets that are going to be husbanded carefully, because to lose one is politically embarrassing (remember the HUGE kerfuffle that erupted when a single F-117 was eventually shot down).


In Vietnam, the F-4 was in its prime as a top-of-the-heap front-line fighter, but nobody back then would have given a moment's thought to losing an airframe in combat, not least because the production line was active and airframe losses could be replaced easily.


The real issue is whether the full capability of the fighters can be exploited in combat, or whether politically motivated ROE will hamstring them the same way their predecessors were hamstrung in the 1960s and early 1970s. If that's the case, expect many of the F-22 and F-35's advantages to evaporate. :(
 

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