Messerschmitt "S" and "M" Designs, 1914 to 1934

rlucas · 29 December 2014

Hello All!

Anybody maybe have more information about the Messerschmitt M28? It seems there is very little available, very bad quality pictures also... Maybe a three view? In some places there are 3 views of a high wing plane? Are there any articles dealing with this plane? Many thanks in advance!

rlucas · 29 December 2014

Picture 2 I have...

rlucas · 29 December 2014

Some cut away drawing found on histaviation... Does anyone know what the source is? Maybe a higher resolution version?

hesham · 29 December 2014

Hi Rlucas,

welcome aboard at first,and here is a more info about it,and for 3-view,i think
I have it,but give me sometimes;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_M_28

rlucas · 29 December 2014

Thank you for the welcome!

Any information you might have would be welcome! Also if you have the same pictures even but higher quality... These are in quite low resolution unfortunately... 3 view would be great!

Maveric · 29 December 2014

...

Arjen · 29 December 2014

rlucas said:
Some cut away drawing found on histaviation... Does anyone know what the source is? Maybe a higher resolution version?

The same drawing appears in 'Willy Messerschmitt - Pionier der Luftfahrt und des Leichtbaues' by Hans J. Ebert / Johann B. Kaiser / Klaus Peters, Bernard & Graefe Verlag 1992.

Maveric's image in reply #5 also appears there, the book's caption states it is an earlier M 28 design, which shares its high-wing layout with Messerschmitt's M 18, M20 and M 24. Kurt Tank, at the time employed in the project office of Bayerische Flugzeugwerke, re-drew the M 28 as a low-wing aircraft.

Bayerische Flugzeugwerke started when MAN AG bought Otto-Flugzeugwerke in 1916 and renamed the company. It went belly-up in 1921. That was not the end: Bayerische Flugzeugwerke was reformed in 1926, bankrupted in 1931, restarted in 1933 and reconstituted as Messerschmitt AG in 1938.

rlucas · 29 December 2014

Arjen, I will see then if I can find this publication, does it contain pictures and other info?

Maveric, I found this three view too yes, but it seems to be the earlier design for the M.28 before it was redrawn, not sure how much it actually has in common with the later actual low wing version... Maybe the wing design was te same, maybe not...?

Jemiba · 29 December 2014

rlucas said:
Arjen, I will see then if I can find this publication, does it contain pictures and other info?

Don't know, where you are from, but "Willy Messerschmitt - Pionier der Luftfahrt und des Leichtbaues"
can be found in the States Library Berlin and so should be available by distant loan, even to foreign
countries. Amazon sells it for 27,- € (second hand).

Arjen · 29 December 2014

rlucas said:
Arjen, I will see then if I can find this publication, does it contain pictures and other info?

Lots of pictures, lots of other info on Messerschmitt's career, including the postwar years.
Schiffer has published an English translation which they offer at $50.

http://www.schifferbooks.com/the-history-of-german-aviation-willy-messerschmitt-pioneer-of-aviation-design-788.html

Maveric · 30 December 2014

Hi all,
Arjen is right, the image is from Willy Messerschmitt - Pionier der Luftfahrt und des Leichtbaues' by Hans J. Ebert / Johann B. Kaiser / Klaus Peters, Bernard & Graefe Verlag 1992. At the moment the book is unavailablefor me. So I can´t say more. Sorry.

athpilot · 30 December 2014

Hi,

the book can be ordered here. The price 12 EUR (plus 2 EUR shipping within Germany) is well...
Athpilot

http://www.booklooker.de/B%C3%BCcher/Willy-Messerschmitt-Pionier-der-Luftfahrt-und-des-Leichtbaues/id/A013v6T101ZZs

Jemiba · 30 December 2014

Is there a clue, if there's a 3-view around anywhere ? If not, the drawing of the high wing
variant could perhaps be used as basis with regards to wing and tailplane planform.
Dimensions are given, although I'm not that sure, if the really apply to the low wing
aircraft, but differences probably weren't that big.

Stargazer · 30 December 2014

Here is a better view of the M28 (M-28) drawing from the Luftfahrt-Verlag Walter Zuerl book Phantom Zeichnungen der Messerschmitt-Flugzeuge:

Arjen · 30 December 2014

Ebert/Kaiser/Peters write the M 28 was designed in response to a 1929 Deutsche Luft Hansa requirement for a fast mailplane - Bayerische Flugzeugwerke was one of the companies approached by DLH.

Willy Messerschmitt's first design to DLH's requirement was a high-wing monoplane, but performance calculations indicated this design would be unsatisfactory. The new aircraft, now named M 28, was built as a low-wing monoplane. Testing began in January 1931.

Despite a highly demanding requirement, the M 28 met or exceeded most of what was asked of it, the only exception being landing speed. With its relatively high wing loading of 100 kg/m2, landing speed was a bit over 100 km/h.

- powerplant: 390 kW/525 hp BMW licence-built Pratt & Whitney Hornet 9-cylinder air cooled radial
- enclosed cabin, staggered seats for two pilots
- duraluminium construction, except for fabric covered rudder and wing behind the wing spar

While the M 28 and its competitor were being tested, DLH concluded its mailplane requirement would not allow an optimal solution to its needs. The M 28 prototype was eventually used by the Deutsche Versuchsanstalt für Luftfahrt at Berlin-Adlershof for structural testing.

Arjen · 30 December 2014

It seems the M 28 had only one competitor, the Focke-Wulf A36.

- powerplant: 390 kW/525 hp BMW Hornet, same as M 28
- mixed construction, low-wing monoplane
- span 14 m
- length 10.30 m
- empty weight 1170 kg, takeoff weight 2400 kg
- max speed 236 km/h - less than the 260 km/h required by DLH

Nicknamed 'Mastgans' which I take to mean a goose raised for its meat - overfed, rotund.

Both the M 28 and the A36 failed to meet the DLH requirement, and stiff penalties had to be paid by Bayerische Flugzeugwerke and Focke-Wulf.

Embarassingly, the A36 could not be rolled out of the hangar it was built in because the hangar doors were not wide enough.

Source: 'Focke Flugzeuge und Hubschrauber von Heinrich Focke 1912-1961' by Enno Springmann, Aviatic Verlag 1997

Stargazer · 30 December 2014

So according to this, there was no connection between the early M 28 three-view and the M 24?

I'm removing my posts right away.

Arjen · 30 December 2014

The early M 28 fits nicely in a series of high-wing Messerschmitt designs, noting that seems worthwhile to *me*.

I would be much obliged if you could post the Phantom Zeichnungen somewhere, they were rather good.

Stargazer · 30 December 2014

Arjen said:
The early M 28 fits nicely in a series of high-wing Messerschmitt designs, noting that seems worthwhile to *me*.
I would be much obliged if you could post the Phantom Zeichnungen somewhere, they were rather good.

Fair enough. I feared it might somehow be off-topic, but I see your point. Here they are again, along with other high-wing designs for comparison purposes.

Jemiba · 31 December 2014

I hope, we can circumvent those problems simply by changing the title.
Looking for the M28, I realised, that there's a great number of other designs, where our
knowledge is similarly fragmentary. What a shame ! We have 3-views, colour profiles
and most beautiful artist impressions of WW II Messerschmitt designs, probably no one,
who still had his head on straight then was ever seriously contemplating to build !
But those types, that really were built and flown still are widely unknown !
Is it because they didn't carry guns and bombs ? So, here is a good opportunity to show,
that aviation enthusiasts aren't just disguised militarists !

You probably know that sort of countenance by some people looking at your bookshelf ? :-\

Jemiba · 8 January 2015

My attempt of a 3-view of the M 28. Used sources and explanations about some
details in the notes, source grade 2.

(For modified drawing see later post)

rlucas · 12 January 2015

Hi all,

Seems like a good of great material on these early Messerschmitts!

Thanks a lot!

Jemiba,

Seems like a great start for a three view!

I tried to find info to see what could be similar with the high wing drawing. Also some more pictures, but these seem very rare of the M-28. I have attached three pictures I have now, I have a fourth in "Taschenbuch der Luftflotten (1931 edition) but no scanner at the moment.

Some points with drawing wich I think looks good:
-Cockpit seem a bit too high/big? (Compare side picture)
-The wheel spats have there bottom edge a bit flatter I think?
-Front edge of the cockpit maybe is a bit flatter (more streamlined?)

One question more, it seems the entire fuselage was in metal, was the wing completely metal as well? And completely covered in metal too? Or partly fabric?

Arjen · 12 January 2015

rlucas said:
One question more, it seems the entire fuselage was in metal, was the wing completely metal as well? And completely covered in metal too? Or partly fabric?

In reply #14:

Arjen said:
- duraluminium construction, except for fabric covered rudder and wing behind the wing spar

I skipped quoting Ebert/Kaiser/Peters literally about the M 28, but reply #14 gives the gist of what they write. Duraluminium wing structure, fabric covered behind the wing spar, metal covered in front.

Jemiba · 12 January 2015

Thank you rlucas,

will check the points you've made. I've tried to determine the shape of the cockpit and angle of the windscreen
from the quite good side view (m28-1) after attempt to enhance contrast, not very succesful.
The other photo (4714L) may be somewhat misleading with this respect, because due to the tapered cross
section of the cockpit the angle of the windshield may appear shallower, than it was.
The third image is very intereswting, as it shows the landing gear struts just as the cutaway. Either they were
modified, or I was fooled and got it wrong ... :-\

As said, I will check again, many thanks for that support !

P.S.: Perhaps a PS specialist could improve those images ?

Stargazer · 24 January 2015

B.F.W. (Messerschmitt) M 20 cutaway two-view plan (I do not have the legend for it):

Stargazer · 10 March 2015

Here is the first appearance in Popular Aviation of the Messerschmitt M 23c, which resembled its "grandson" (the Me 108 Taifun) a lot more than the previous M 23b (also shown for comparison).

Jemiba · 11 March 2015

Indeed, it shows the lines, that were somehow typical for Messerschmitt, reminding me
to the (bigger and heavier) P.1012 (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17113.msg172422.html#msg172422 ).
Thank you for pointing us to it and to that magazine !

foiling · 11 March 2015

Beautiful drawing, Jemiba

Jemiba · 23 March 2015

Have checked rlucas points and reworked the drawing in the following way
(sorry, took quite a while ):

- The cockpit is a bit flatter now, but with the angle of the windscreen retained. Judging the
phantom drawing (which to my opinion is quite closely based on the photo in #21), the windscreen
was more or less a rectangular glass panel, so the angle should be the same on the side and on
the center line and can be quite good taken from that drawing.
- The lower part of the spats are flatter now.
- I've added a side view with the other layout of the wheel struts. Not sure, if that's the first or
second configuration, but there were both, without doubt.

Messerschmitt "S" and "M" Designs, 1914 to 1934

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