German Arado 234 C - "AEW"

1/48th scale Monogram kit I built (later released under Hasagawa/Revell), it depicts the AEW version that the Germans wanted to release. The "AWACS-type" dome was a resin piece from Fusion, a Canadian company, the Radar Officer's rear compartment was scratch built - Below is the little write up I did, to go with the model when on display.

Re: German Arado 234 C - "AWACS"

Interesting.

I wasn't even aware of a German AWACS project.

Interesting that they chose the Arado 234 instead od a larger propellor driven design, although there may have been AWACS projects for those?
I suppose the jet confirs an element of safety from fighters, and the Arado was the largest operational jet...

Re: German Arado 234 C - "AWACS"

We perhaps assume this was an AWACS in our current understanding of the term. Looks like so must be...

Perhaps the Arado was an attempt to provide a night fighter with 360 degree radar cover to a) detect targets in the absence of ground control that has been either destroyed or disrupted by RCM or b) provide all-round warning of approaching RAF intruders while it hunted bombers. To shoot down a Lancaster, it would need to slow down and would thus be vulnerable to Mosquitoes.

I doubt it would be conducting the same ACI/AWI role that the RAF had in mind at the same time.

Chris

Re: German Arado 234 C - "AWACS"

CJGibson - you could be right, not enough info is available to fully determine it's role, however what little is out there seems to point indeed to an AWACS type of role...

I read somewhere else that during the last 2 years of the war, the German nightfighter planes reliance on the Kammhuber line's by now very well know (position-wise) Freya and Wurzburg radars, was in a large part their weak link. One of the many successful Allied tactics was to have specially equipped B-17's and B-24's of EW squadrons like the 100 Group, position themselves in patterns over the German ground radars and simply jam them and their comms links to the nightfighters etc.

The Germans thus wanted a mobile radar platform that could follow the correct bomber stream (and not the "spoof raid"), directing the other nightfighters from there, giving the platform flexibility of movement (making them far harder to find and therefore jam) and allowing them to accurately track the real bomber stream (by following them). This platform would also be considerably cheaper and easier to produce than the afore-mentioned ground radars and all their associated logistical needs.

The Arado was chosen for various reasons and there are various drawings of the 2nd crew member/radar operator (properly a fairly senior officer), seated in the space usually taken up by the rear 20mm cannons/cameras (evidence of this should be easy enough to find, so I've not included it below).

I have attached some pieces out of the following books: "Arado AR 234C" David Myhra - published 2000 and "Luftwaffe Secret Projects, ground attack and special purpose aricraft" Dieter Herwig and Heinz Rode - published 2002. For reference and discussion purposes.

BTW - Manfred Griehl also mentions it in his "Jet planes of the Third Riech, the secret projects - vol 2" published 2004

Re: German Arado 234 C - "AWACS"

This makes no real claims its an "AWACS" (except to call it an AEW radar which is a bit misleading) its just a low drag search radar installation- and it notes that later AWACS aircraft used similar installations i.e. rotodomes.

Re: German Arado 234 C - "AWACS"

PaulMM - well since we don't have enough evidence either of us could be correct at this point, I have naturally taken some artistic liberties with my model - also the claim in one of the plates that the Allies captured it as war booty and took it and developed it further into AWACS, is misleading - that they may have done, however as you well know British developments (and use) on Wellingtons for example pre-dates that.

That said I am fairly convinced that this would have been the aim, based both on the above, as well as other bits and pieces I have read over the years - I certainly think it was not beyond the German's scope to turn it into a basic AWACS type vehicle - and I seriously doubt considering it's potential ability that they would have not done so once deployed, even if that had not been it's initial design aim.

So it seems that it was a real project of sorts, just to what exact end we cannot be sure - this is also one of the reasons why I chose to post it in the modelling forum and not the "Early Aircraft Projects" thread (the other main reason is naturally that I had built a model of it ).

Re: German Arado 234 C - "AWACS"

I think there's a reasonably big distinction between AEW and AWACS. An Airborne Early Warning radar is just a sizeable search radar mounted on a plane. AWACS is a radar, plus datalinks, control stations - its like a miniature GCI station in the air.


The first is achievable with WW2 technology, the second is not.


Of course, you are welcome to build models of anything you like; however, we have had a fair few fakes gain legitimacy from posting here and be referenced to the forum eleswhere, so its important to understand what is a model of a real project, and what is not.

Re: German Arado 234 C - "AWACS"

Some of the German Secret Projects books remind me of this series of sketches from a British comedy show, in their apparent desire to prove Germany invented everything aviation related for the next 50 years during WW2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln5QgeCL1fs

(Mr "Everything comes from India" from Goodness Gracious Me)

Re: German Arado 234 C - "AWACS"

Tssk, tssk. Everybody knows that the Scots invented everything.

Chris

Re: German Arado 234 C - "AWACS"

CJGibson said:

Tssk, tssk. Everybody knows that the Scots invented everything.

Click to expand...

Except quadrotriticale. Invented in Russia.

Re: German Arado 234 C - "AWACS"

PaulMM (Overscan) said:

I think there's a reasonably big distinction between AEW and AWACS. An Airborne Early Warning radar is just a sizeable search radar mounted on a plane. AWACS is a radar, plus datalinks, control stations - its like a miniature GCI station in the air.


The first is achievable with WW2 technology, the second is not.

Click to expand...

Paul, let's hypothesize.

Assume that radar allowed the plane to track the bomber stream, and get within its vicinity, and then stay with that bomber stream, all the while relaying positional information by radio link (which is I suppose a primitive data link in concept) or an electronic transmitter to a ground station.
This ground station then controlled a nightfighter response, or perhaps additionally allowing the nightfighters to home in on a beacon device fitted to the Arado, or the Ground stations to track said beacon accurately.
This then would meet all the criteria of radar, data link, and control stations - a form of primitive AWACS, albeit with most of the control functions devolved admittedly.

All the technology for the above was available, and indeed in use in various guises.

Having said that, if it was indeed based on the C3 model, then, with its forward firing cannon, perhaps it was simply a nightfighter?

Re: German Arado 234 C - "AWACS"

What you describe would be an AEW aircraft.

Re: German Arado 234 C - "AWACS"

For "The Air Staff and AEW" I looked at most systems that claimed to be AEW/AWACS. This Arado system seemed to be a nightfighter with 360 degree radar cover, which to me, given the amount of Intruder Mosquitoes with Serrate etc flying around over Germany, allowed them to electronically check Six. Wonder how many Nachtjagers were surprised as they stalked a Lancaster? I think this is a case of convergent evolution.

I was sceptical of the need to rotate at 1000rpm a scanner with 180 degree cover when the simpler solution was to mount two back-to-back. But simple was never in the rule book in those parts at that time. Nor did I see any point in transmitting data/picture back to the ground which is essentially Cadillac - an AEW system.

Chris

PS who needs quadrotriticale when we have oats. (Not being a fan, I had to Google that)

Re: German Arado 234 C - "AWACS"

Very interesting and a nice model. I didn't know about this Arado version with the radar. Very interesting the debate about AEW/AWACS.

Re: German Arado 234 C - "AWACS"

Can it be this is "Radarplatform" for squadron of Arado 234 Nightfighter ?
the Arado 234 C series was also consider as Fighter (C-7 and C-3N) aka 234 P or F series (or using 234 B series as E395.02)
one pilot with two MG151/20

source:
Heinz J. Nowarra
Die Deutsche Luftrüstung 1933-1945 volume one.
page 72
this book mention the Fighter version, but not the Radar version.

Thanks for the video PaulMM - I had a good chuckle ;D - and I hear you.

I have amended the heading and my written text - hopefully this will not create any further confusion.

I certainly do believe though, that they could very easily have ensured the installation of the correct amount of FuG radios not only for air to ground, but also for more than one air to air frequency (for different nightfighter squadrons and aircraft types - they all set at different frequencies). It would then be easy for them to establish these pre-flight and set them before take-off (for the daily change). This would have allowed for a fair degree of vectoring and control of (other?) nightfighters. I would think that the other nightfighters being vectored, would then rather employ the more "focused" Fug 240 "Berlin" radar for the hunter-killer role.

well the exact role remains ultimately unproven - however it seems however to have created some good debate - never a bad thing!

- This version of the Ar 234 certainly was intended to be flown at night
- From what I found, the FuG 244 had a range of about 5 km. Given a new antenna,
maybe it would have been raised to 10 km ?
- AFAIK, the distances of individual aircraft in the "Bomberstrom" usually was considerable, several
hundreds of meters at least, just to prevent collisions.

To my opinion with the claimed equipment, that Ar 234 could have found some bombers within
the stream, but hardly tracked the bomber stream as a whole. And from what I read, tracking the
bomber stream wasn't the real problem, but to recognise their target. And here it wouldn't have been
very helpful, I think. So I think Chris is quite right, it was just a nightfighter.
And remember, that after an (unsuccesful) attack it was often difficult to find the target again at night,
so 360° radar coverage could have been really helpful.

Or alternatively, the 'hunter' in a hunter-killer pair or flight.

Grey Havoc said:

Or alternatively, the 'hunter' in a hunter-killer pair or flight.

Click to expand...

Working together during the darkness probably would have been difficult. Communication between
ground controllers and night fighters was jammed regularly and so probably would have been for
those hunter-killer pairs, too. And all radiation could be used to identify and find aircraft at night.
Remember, at the time, this design could have been in service, the first allied jet night fighters
could have been, too !