Author Topic: Soviet Copying of North American Aviation Designs  (Read 6972 times)

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Soviet Copying of North American Aviation Designs
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2013, 01:34:04 pm »
The B-1 and the Tu160 were logical evolutions of the late 1960s Boeing SST studies.  Who is copying who?

Indeed. And my impression is that all initial supersonic airliner research was more or less performed at NASA under the SCAT program. Once NASA isolated the very best configurations for a certain set of specifications, it seems logical that the industry would closely follow that. And NASA's reports may have been confidential to some extent, but I doubt they fell into the same degree of secrecy as the DoD's "Secret"-labeled files.

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Soviet Copying of North American Aviation Designs
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2013, 07:15:25 am »
Blackjack is not a B-1 copy. Big difference is that the high-fast envelope, not the low-fast envelope, is the primary one.

Offline FighterJock

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Re: Soviet Copying of North American Aviation Designs
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2013, 11:25:49 am »
Blackjack is not a B-1 copy. Big difference is that the high-fast envelope, not the low-fast envelope, is the primary one.


May be so, but when you look closely you might find that certain elements of the original B-1A not the B-1B, have been copied for soviet requirements of the day.  For instance aircraft max load: 88,185 pounds, length: 54.1 meters, radius of action: 2000 km, Accommodation: two pilots, two WSOs, Max Speed: M2.05.  Data from Jane's Aircraft Recognition Guide Fifth Edition.  The B-1A had a very similar top speed, range and crew stations.

Offline sferrin

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Re: Soviet Copying of North American Aviation Designs
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2013, 01:01:52 pm »
Blackjack is not a B-1 copy. Big difference is that the high-fast envelope, not the low-fast envelope, is the primary one.

The B-1A was actually faster than the Blackjack. 
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline Nils_D

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Re: Soviet Copying of North American Aviation Designs
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2013, 03:00:27 am »
The Tu-160 was developed from the Myasichev M-18 which had nothing to do with B-1A except superficially similar layout.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Soviet Copying of North American Aviation Designs
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2013, 05:32:54 am »
The Tu-160 was developed from the Myasichev M-18

Really? I thought they were competing designs!  ???

Offline flanker

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Re: Soviet Copying of North American Aviation Designs
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2013, 05:45:30 am »
M-18 won, and got taken over by Tupolev iirc. Then it got Tupolevified and became Tu-160.
Push the envelope,watch it bend.

Offline FighterJock

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Re: Soviet Copying of North American Aviation Designs
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2013, 09:16:05 am »
I did not know that Myasichev was taken over by Tupolev after the competition was won.  What did the M-18 look like? Are there any pictures of it available today before the redesign, would be interesting to see them side by side, and anyone know what Tupolev's original design looked like?

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Soviet Copying of North American Aviation Designs
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2013, 09:46:45 am »
I did not know that Myasichev was taken over by Tupolev after the competition was won.

This is NOT what has been said! The M-18 was taken over by Tupolev, not the Myasishchev bureau!

As often happened (and not just in the Soviet Union), the State picked a winner design and then chose among the losers which would be best (often read: cheapest) to get it manufactured...

Offline FighterJock

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Re: Soviet Copying of North American Aviation Designs
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2013, 11:55:10 am »
Whoops!! Sorry guys.  Just my brain thinking ahead of my fingers unfortunately.  Strange that the Soviets did that with the M-18 design handing it over to Tupolev when Myasishchev clearly won the competition, that would be like Northrop Grumman winning the ATB competition then Lockheed building the B-2A.

Offline flanker

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Re: Soviet Copying of North American Aviation Designs
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2013, 02:15:27 pm »
In world of politics and lobbying, NOTHING is strange. (seen any news lately on lets say gene modified crops or ban in several states of films proving animal cruelty?)
Push the envelope,watch it bend.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Soviet Copying of North American Aviation Designs
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2013, 03:27:36 am »
Whoops!! Sorry guys.  Just my brain thinking ahead of my fingers unfortunately.  Strange that the Soviets did that with the M-18 design handing it over to Tupolev when Myasishchev clearly won the competition, that would be like Northrop Grumman winning the ATB competition then Lockheed building the B-2A.

Actually this kind of thing happened a few times in American aerospace. Think of the F-18. Clearly a Northrop design but the DoD selected McDonnell Douglas as the prime contractor and offer Northrop to be the main sub-contractor instead it was a tricky deal, because in theory, Northrop remained prime contractor on non-Navy versions, that is USAF if any, or export (except no such sales ever materialized), and therefore most people think the F-18 was actually a McDonnell Douglas aircraft! (and now a Boeing, gosh!)

Offline FighterJock

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Re: Soviet Copying of North American Aviation Designs
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2013, 07:51:01 am »
Yes I remember the YF-17, the loosing competitor to the F-16.  Having seen it in aviation books back in the 1980s when I ordered them out the local library.  A great pity it was not chosen because I am sure that it would have made a great fighter for the USAF, apparently there was not that much to separate the YF-17 from the F-16 in the fly off.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Soviet Copying of North American Aviation Designs
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2013, 08:20:01 am »
Yes I remember the YF-17, the loosing competitor to the F-16.  Having seen it in aviation books back in the 1980s when I ordered them out the local library.  A great pity it was not chosen because I am sure that it would have made a great fighter for the USAF, apparently there was not that much to separate the YF-17 from the F-16 in the fly off.

Same old story. General Dynamics had an aggressive approach and appropriate political ties...

Offline FighterJock

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Re: Soviet Copying of North American Aviation Designs
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2013, 09:32:49 am »
That did not help Lockheed Martin from taking over General Dynamics in 1992 at the end of the Advanced Tactical Fighter competition.  And also the Soviet Union was collapsing at that time too.