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Author Topic: National Maritime Museum gun turret model  (Read 3337 times)

Offline JFC Fuller

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National Maritime Museum gun turret model
« on: May 06, 2013, 03:49:26 am »
Browsing the NMM ships models collection looking for something else today i stumbled across this:

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/68917.html

It certainly looks post-war and fast firing. The glazed section beside the gun is reminiscent of sextuple bofors mounting, the 3" Mk 6 and of course Green Mace. The overall footprint of this mounting is reminiscent of the 4" guns supplied by Vickers for the Chilean Almirante class. The NMM gives the following description:

Quote
A working model of a gun turret made in wood, painted a uniform grey, with metal working parts and plastic fittings. The rear section of the turret, is a half-hexagon in shape and can be removed to show the elevating mechanism. The turret is an elongated hexagon shape in plan view, the underside of which has an integral shallow wooden turntable with a rounded metal pivoting pin at its centre. The gun barrel and housing is made of wood and can be elevated to almost 90 degrees. On the right-hand side of the barrel is an enclosed cockpit, glazed on three sides with a pitched glazed roof canopy. The gun is linked to the elevating mechanism by two chains worked over a drum.

I would add that the gun appears to have a dual feeding mechanism which reminds me of Green Mace though there are no signs of water cooling (that I can see) on what is a detailed model. Does anybody have any thoughts or know more?

Offline Tony Williams

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Re: National Maritime Museum gun turret model
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2013, 05:03:27 am »
Interesting. Not seen anything like that before.
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Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: National Maritime Museum gun turret model
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2013, 02:52:39 pm »
 The single recuperator over the barrel looks like the 3.7Ē AA gun. Also the two feed systems appear to be dropping rounds onto a Ratefixer style tray on either side of the breech. Perhaps a naval mount for the 3.7?
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Offline smurf

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Re: National Maritime Museum gun turret model
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2013, 06:52:48 am »
The central part of this mounting that pivots vertically (roughly wedge-shaped plus the barrel) looks rather like the drawings of Zenith and Marquardt versions of DACR at 34 or 40mm.  These usually show things like calculated recoil forces, but it is never clear on those I have seen how the gun would be mounted on a ship. This might be the answer.  The whole turret is not unlike the 57mm twin DACR.  Still can't get at my photos though.


Offline Petrus

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Re: National Maritime Museum gun turret model
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2013, 12:34:57 pm »
Still can't get at my photos though.

Hopefully your computer will be running again.

P.

Offline Tony Williams

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Re: National Maritime Museum gun turret model
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2013, 05:13:24 pm »
The central part of this mounting that pivots vertically (roughly wedge-shaped plus the barrel) looks rather like the drawings of Zenith and Marquardt versions of DACR at 34 or 40mm

I'd be grateful for any information you have about these.


Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/

Offline uk 75

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Re: National Maritime Museum gun turret model
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2015, 06:49:59 am »
Found this interesting gun turret model on the excellent National Maritime Museum site
 
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/68917.html
 
Anyone know more than they appear to?

Edit : Topics merged and picture added
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 08:53:51 am by Jemiba »

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: National Maritime Museum gun turret model
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2015, 07:59:21 am »
The reported naval version of Green Mace?
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Offline Tzoli

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Re: National Maritime Museum gun turret model
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2015, 09:09:47 am »
More like the 4inch Mark N/R mount:




(drawing resized)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 11:04:57 pm by Jemiba »

Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: National Maritime Museum gun turret model
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2015, 06:19:52 pm »
Its the original design for the Vickers 4" Mk N mounting called the Vickers Universal Mounting. There is an article in "Warships 2013" by Peter Marland (ex RN WEO) about this gun which has drawings of the original design that match this model. It used the same L45 barrel as the legacy Mk 16 4 inch gun which was later replaced by a new L62 barrel in the production weapons for Chile. The production version also enclosed the entire mounting in the gun house as this version as the two ammunition hoppers mounted outside. The hoppers were also angled to the mean of the gun's elevation and here they are horizontal.


This system is a great gun and could have made a significant improvement to the RN's destroyers and frigates if it had replaced the Mk 6 4.5 inch gun and the later Mk 8. Lighter, cheaper, more reliable, greater weight of fire and so on. The only problem about such a 'What If' is the Iranians would have had them on on their Vosper Mk 5s and that would have cost the lives of a lot more merchant sailors when they were shooting up, almost at random, cargo ships in the Persian Gulf in the 1980s.
"There is a tendency in our planning to confuse the unfamiliar with the improbable." Thomas Schelling

Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: National Maritime Museum gun turret model
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2015, 06:23:19 pm »
More like the 4inch Mark N/R mount:



That's a large scan of a copyrighted image (A.D. Baker III's) and its not this forum's policy or good behaviour (ie illegal) to upload such to the internet. You should really delete it and replace it with a lores scan (under 480 pixels wide) to preserve the rightful ownership of the artist who drew it.
"There is a tendency in our planning to confuse the unfamiliar with the improbable." Thomas Schelling

Offline Tzoli

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Re: National Maritime Museum gun turret model
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2015, 04:32:39 am »
Its the original design for the Vickers 4" Mk N mounting called the Vickers Universal Mounting. There is an article in "Warships 2013" by Peter Marland (ex RN WEO) about this gun which has drawings of the original design that match this model. It used the same L45 barrel as the legacy Mk 16 4 inch gun which was later replaced by a new L62 barrel in the production weapons for Chile. The production version also enclosed the entire mounting in the gun house as this version as the two ammunition hoppers mounted outside. The hoppers were also angled to the mean of the gun's elevation and here they are horizontal.


This system is a great gun and could have made a significant improvement to the RN's destroyers and frigates if it had replaced the Mk 6 4.5 inch gun and the later Mk 8. Lighter, cheaper, more reliable, greater weight of fire and so on. The only problem about such a 'What If' is the Iranians would have had them on on their Vosper Mk 5s and that would have cost the lives of a lot more merchant sailors when they were shooting up, almost at random, cargo ships in the Persian Gulf in the 1980s.

Really interesting! As you can see the Vickers firm included this type of weapon for many of it's export cruiser designs. Sadly Navweaps side does not contains info about the gun and mounting as it have a different Mark N mount listed:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_4-40_mk7.htm
Looks like it is a good idea to get hold of that Warship issue?

Offline Tzoli

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Re: National Maritime Museum gun turret model
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2015, 04:35:14 am »
More like the 4inch Mark N/R mount:



That's a large scan of a copyrighted image (A.D. Baker III's) and its not this forum's policy or good behaviour (ie illegal) to upload such to the internet. You should really delete it and replace it with a lores scan (under 480 pixels wide) to preserve the rightful ownership of the artist who drew it.

I bought the book, did not said a single thing about I draw it or even selling it, just posted it as the mounting looked like the ones used on this export cruiser proposal. Also people should know more about the never were designs!

Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: National Maritime Museum gun turret model
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2015, 06:06:29 pm »
Really interesting! As you can see the Vickers firm included this type of weapon for many of it's export cruiser designs. Sadly Navweaps side does not contains info about the gun and mounting as it have a different Mark N mount listed:
 http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_4-40_mk7.htm
 Looks like it is a good idea to get hold of that Warship issue?

The Conway Warship series, now edited by John Jordan, are great resources. Most of the information on unbuilt ships of WWII and the post war period that we all know were first published in these books in the 1980s and now as an annual they keep coming up with good stuff. It can be a bit frustrating the wide coverage from the 19th century to modern times and the price is stiff. But its quality stuff.
 
The 2013 edition has an article on British post war ship offers to South America and an article on the Vickers 4 inch gun including its fire control system as fitted in the Chilean destroyers. The 2014 edition follows up the 4 inch gun article with another on British post war fire control systems and the 2015 edition on British post war guns and missile launchers. All good stuff.
 
 
I bought the book, did not said a single thing about I draw it or even selling it, just posted it as the mounting looked like the ones used on this export cruiser proposal.

Actually it does on the page before the contents where it says the book is copyrighted and all rights reserved and no reproduction allowed and so on. Under international copyright law you are able to present some limited copies for the purpose of review and education and the like but high resolution scans falls outside what is legal.
 
Also many books include reproductions of artwork that is not copyrighted like US Government drawings or time expired imagery. This stuff can be freely copied and distributed as long as you make sure it doesnít include any original work. The drawings by AD Baker III are original works and are fully copyrighted. Just like your own drawings which you can sell or freely give away if you want.
 
Copyright does not extend to information and ideas presented in articles. It does cover the word arrangements and original stories so you canít copy text verbatim or rebadge someoneís stories.
 
Also people should know more about the never were designs!

Sure which is what this webpage is all about. But people still own their original work unless they decide to give it away. Professional writers and artists rely on their copyright protection to make a living off their work. Without that living, or supplement to it, they often donít have the time to go and research the information, analyse it and package the results into a book or article so we donít get to find out about it. Without copyright Norman Friedman would be some guy down at his local pub who could tell you everything about 20th century warships and not an author or 10 or more books that anyone can access to find out the same. And Dave Baker would be similar but who also had an amazing collection of drawings at home that he might let you come around and look at if you were lucky.
 
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 06:08:09 pm by Abraham Gubler »
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Offline Tzoli

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Re: National Maritime Museum gun turret model
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2015, 01:45:55 pm »
Looks like this mounting is very similar to the Vickers 4inch Mark Q mounting used on the Chilen Almirante Williams class destroyers:


The mounting is fully enclosed:

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNCHL_4-62_Vickers.htm