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Author Topic: Advancedboy's delusional ravings on Western vs Russian aerospace  (Read 3582 times)

Offline Matej

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This is how you should do the business the honest way. Roll up the sleeves and do some elbow grease. Do some physical input by actually building things, not vapourwaring CGIs , scale demonstrators and press releases. There is no substitute for real work.  This is Mil -54 helicopter. They have already built full scale mockup.

Please not too much offtopic here (I deleted your last two posts)! I am missing your point - for example B-2 was intentionally build completely without any mockups, demonstrators or such a things to save the money, because everything can be done in the CAD/CAM system and full scale "Y" pre-production prototype is the first real thing to be build. You posted Mi-38 photo as the example of the "real" work - should I tell you how many decades ago the development of this type started? And how many examples were actually build till date?  JHL program is a long run, so naturally we can see a lot of CGI in this early stage.

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Offline flateric

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Re: Advancedboy's delusional ravings on Western vs Russian aerospace
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2011, 08:07:41 am »
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This is Mil -54 helicopter. They have already built full scale mockup.

1992 - R&D on Mi-54 has started
2007 - full-scale mock-up built, 2011 declared as year of first flight, but no metal was ever cut so far
...
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Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Advancedboy's delusional ravings on Western vs Russian aerospace
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2011, 10:03:59 am »
for example B-2 was intentionally build completely without any mockups, demonstrators or such a things to save the money, because everything can be done in the CAD/CAM system

How can we know for sure there weren't any subscale demonstrator of flying scale models of some kind? But maybe you're right... What is for sure is that there was an RCS pole model, so I guess they still needed some real-life tests prior to building the type. Also I believe that Tacit Blue also partly served to demonstrate some stealth features that were later used in the B-2.

Offline ADVANCEDBOY

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Re: Advancedboy's delusional ravings on Western vs Russian aerospace
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2011, 10:37:10 pm »
Somehow Russians have more tendency of actually building stuff, rather than just planning and talking about it. if you look at civil aviation ,it has the same pattern- russkies constantly crank out new planes- by new I mean starting from 80ies, because life cycle of a plane isn`t comparable to a car, for example. Here are some examples- Tu-334, Tu-204,Sukhoi100, An-148,Il-96, An -70, Su-80, etc. No wonder they are experts in civil aviation, i would even claim they are the best in civil aviation by far( undoubtedly the best fuselage engineering.). How does a single boeing 787 stack against the whole plethora of planes? How does s-92 stack against cornucopia of choppers from Russia? You gain expertize  by diversity and healthy competition, once competition is gone, the expertize takes the lowest market denominator- patriotism. If the competition was `at the round table`, how would Be-200 stack against the old western hydroplanes? How would Mil-26 stack against western alikes? Unfortunately competition in western hemisphere, especially US is more of a religion, it is based on beliefs of values, not measurments of values. This is where my skepticism comes dealing with realities of a program with a nice loud name`Joint Heavy Lift`.
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Offline ADVANCEDBOY

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Re: Advancedboy's delusional ravings on Western vs Russian aerospace
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2011, 10:47:46 pm »
P.S. looking at manifold Mil chopper programs we have to play a game ` sort out the sucker`. it is clear that irregardless of Mil expertize, they have a bit too many programs to deal with- mi-x1, mi-38, mi-54, mi-46, Mi-58. ( I usually miss out the choppers that don`t have landing gears, as I don`t consider them  choppers at all.). Any guesses, which programs would most likely be given  a `GO`. Well, Mi-38 is already flying.
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Offline Byeman

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Re: Advancedboy's delusional ravings on Western vs Russian aerospace
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2011, 06:57:06 am »
How does a single boeing 787 stack against the whole plethora of planes?

Very well.   The discriminator is number of units sold and built

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Advancedboy's delusional ravings on Western vs Russian aerospace
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2013, 03:04:37 pm »

Offline TaiidanTomcat

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Re: Advancedboy's delusional ravings on Western vs Russian aerospace
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2013, 09:01:50 pm »
How does a single boeing 787 stack against the whole plethora of planes?

I think Boeing is more than happy to build fewer types that sell in large numbers rather than large numbers of types that sell in fewer numbers.

 
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How does s-92 stack against cornucopia of choppers from Russia?

so your question is, how does this one western helicopter compare to ALL Russian helicopters?

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You gain expertize  by diversity and healthy competition, once competition is gone, the expertize takes the lowest market denominator- patriotism.

Which is odd because for 70 years capitalist style competition was frowned upon (to say the least) in Russia, and what competition there existed was often crushed by political favoritism, not "healthy competition" to say the least.

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How would Mil-26 stack against western alikes?

well what are we measuring? If we are measuring size the Halo wins. If we are measuring the ability to operate from a ship the Ch-53E wins. If we are measuring speed, a CH-47 can get surprisingly fast (like 170 knots+) thanks to its two huge rotor disks, If we are measuring range a V-22 is exceptional.

Quote
Unfortunately competition in western hemisphere, especially US is more of a religion, it is based on beliefs of values, not measurments of values. This is where my skepticism comes dealing with realities of a program with a nice loud name`Joint Heavy Lift`.

You and the western hemisphere seem to have different ideas of what is valuable.

Finally (and please feel free to correct me on this) I'm pretty Russia/USSR built more mock-ups and prototypes because of a lack of computers and other tools western manufacturers had in a greater abundance.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 09:04:55 pm by TaiidanTomcat »
Airpower Australia- Where self declared "experts" scream about Lockheed Martin being overselling crooks and liars while advocating Lockheed Martin F-22s as the only logical choice.

Offline ADVANCEDBOY

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Re: Advancedboy's delusional ravings on Western vs Russian aerospace
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2013, 04:31:56 am »
Platform diversity is a key component to enlarged expertize. Diversity of product range allows a company to adopt to manifold ondulations of demand and adjust to specific market better.  It can`t be done in an environment of political favoritism and badge preference and rotating door principle where secret handshakes in fraternity are paramount instead of engineering supremacy. This  is why US has widlfire inferno, but no one is buying Beriev`s superb hydro planes, which can land and be refilled with water within minutes.
We can observe that the biggest Alpha Tier engineering companies have a couple of similar traits- 1. Product diversity.2 . Domestic character of complex, expertise driven components and their engineering. A weakness is considered rebadging, outsourcing,  lack of domestic engineering of complex components, and hit or miss product strategy that stems from a poor product range, obsolete product range, slow  overhaul cycle and government fleet sales strategy. Alpha Tier company` strategy benefits highly skilled workforce, which benefits the local and state economy by improving purchasing power and sustaining expertize levels for continuous competitivness. Do you want to learn from Japan or Once A Great Britain engineering expertize? Save the Russia, their hegemony in civil aircraft diversity is rather a a force of inertia than sheer calculated beefing up of once powerful muscles....
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Offline TaiidanTomcat

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Re: Advancedboy's delusional ravings on Western vs Russian aerospace
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2013, 09:20:30 am »
Platform diversity is a key component to enlarged expertize. Diversity of product range allows a company to adopt to manifold ondulations of demand and adjust to specific market better.  It can`t be done in an environment of political favoritism and badge preference and rotating door principle where secret handshakes in fraternity are paramount instead of engineering supremacy.

Well that was the USSR.

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This  is why US has widlfire inferno, but no one is buying Beriev`s superb hydro planes, which can land and be refilled with water within minutes.

Umm no. Wildfires are typically fought using government contracts to civilian companies (occasionally military aircraft participate but they are not really trained for it, and all aircraft military and civil must be approved by the US Forest Service) We would see Beriev Sea planes in operation if they were cheaper to operate, more common, and had better logistics in the west. there is no purpose in buying some whiz bang piece of kit if there are no parts for it, or if it bankrupts who is working with it.

The Sea planes also need room to land and takeoff, where as the helicopters will take their water from bodies of water as small as swimming pools. Can a beriev sea plane land in a swimming pool and tank up? When we use fixed wing aircraft they typically drop not water, but flame retardant anyway. It has nothing to do "engineering supremacy" 

 
Quote
A weakness is considered rebadging, outsourcing,  lack of domestic engineering of complex components, and hit or miss product strategy that stems from a poor product range, obsolete product range, slow  overhaul cycle and government fleet sales strategy.

Russia has been having these problems in case you havn't noticed.

Quote
Alpha Tier company` strategy benefits highly skilled workforce, which benefits the local and state economy by improving purchasing power and sustaining expertize levels for continuous competitivness. Do you want to learn from Japan or Once A Great Britain engineering expertize? Save the Russia, their hegemony in civil aircraft diversity is rather a a force of inertia than sheer calculated beefing up of once powerful muscles....


Last I checked sales of western aircraft (of amazing variety BTW) vastly outpaced Russia. I know what you are trying to say. You are trying to say russia has cooler and more interesting stuff, so this must be because Russia has engineering super men and the west is just caught up in some outmodded theocracy, but I;m sorry the numbers speak for themselves. Western gear sells, and it sells well, and I assume it sells well because its stuff worth having, and repeat business speaks to its success, we continue to see nations that used soviet gear using it until it wears out and then buying western aircraft.
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Offline ADVANCEDBOY

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Re: Advancedboy's delusional ravings on Western vs Russian aerospace
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2013, 02:27:38 am »
It is not Russian versus Western. It is the nosediving US versus nosediving Russia and emerging European industry  and other countries, such as China. While Russia is going south from being a king of North, it still has a behemoth expertize that  has a strong residual value  to make the next generation platforms such as MS-21 or upcoming Il-214 ( MTA). The civil aircraft market will be more and more saturated with new products, unfortunately it will have to do less and less with US. Besides Airbus a350 there is Bombardier c-series, upcoming MRJ, MS-21, Comac c-919 etc. Boeing will have to squeeze more and more or create non-existent PR stunts and marketing tricks to concince the customer to buy their product purely on legend basis. Reminds me of Harley-Davidson, Bose or Kodak.
IF you can`t see similarities in US manufacturing that has lead to death of these companies with thriving Japanese companies , that have done exactly the opposite, then I can`t help you. Us industries are doing exactly the opposite that say, Toyota is doing( strong domestic engineering, rapid product overhaul cycle, ever increasing product diversity, superb fit and finish, reliability) and I already see symptoms in Boeing that zapped MDD. Have you ever considered why none of Japanese car companies have ever bankrupted while majority of US ones have? None of German have. What does German car industry have in  common with Japanese? Need a hint? Exactly what bankrupts US car companies, will bankrupt every other US based precision engineering industry, be it industrial robots, trains, trucks or airplanes. It goes exactly in footsteps symptom by symptom with British car industry.

(PS. I wonder how would Fairchild Dornier 728/928  story have  ended, had it not involved a US company as a partner?)
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Offline yasotay

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Re: Advancedboy's delusional ravings on Western vs Russian aerospace
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2013, 09:51:34 am »
Interestingly the 22 July edition of Defense News headline is "Russians Surge as US, Euro Firms Slip".

Offline TaiidanTomcat

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Re: Advancedboy's delusional ravings on Western vs Russian aerospace
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2013, 12:04:35 pm »
It is not Russian versus Western. It is the nosediving US versus nosediving Russia and emerging European industry  and other countries, such as China. While Russia is going south from being a king of North, it still has a behemoth expertize that  has a strong residual value  to make the next generation platforms such as MS-21 or upcoming Il-214 ( MTA). The civil aircraft market will be more and more saturated with new products, unfortunately it will have to do less and less with US. Besides Airbus a350 there is Bombardier c-series, upcoming MRJ, MS-21, Comac c-919 etc. Boeing will have to squeeze more and more or create non-existent PR stunts and marketing tricks to concince the customer to buy their product purely on legend basis. Reminds me of Harley-Davidson, Bose or Kodak.
IF you can`t see similarities in US manufacturing that has lead to death of these companies with thriving Japanese companies , that have done exactly the opposite, then I can`t help you. Us industries are doing exactly the opposite that say, Toyota is doing( strong domestic engineering, rapid product overhaul cycle, ever increasing product diversity, superb fit and finish, reliability) and I already see symptoms in Boeing that zapped MDD. Have you ever considered why none of Japanese car companies have ever bankrupted while majority of US ones have? None of German have. What does German car industry have in  common with Japanese? Need a hint? Exactly what bankrupts US car companies, will bankrupt every other US based precision engineering industry, be it industrial robots, trains, trucks or airplanes. It goes exactly in footsteps symptom by symptom with British car industry.

(PS. I wonder how would Fairchild Dornier 728/928  story have  ended, had it not involved a US company as a partner?)

Cars are not aircraft and vice versa.
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Offline chuck4

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Re: Advancedboy's delusional ravings on Western vs Russian aerospace
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2013, 12:06:33 pm »
Have you ever considered why none of Japanese car companies have ever bankrupted while majority of US ones have? None of German have. What does German car industry have in  common with Japanese? Need a hint?

Urrr, because the Japanese and German car companies that you've heard of have survived the descent into bankruptcy by being bought out before actually going into receivership?   
 
Nissan was bought out by Ranault.   Mazda was bought out by Ford.   Mitsubishi was bought out by Daimler Benz,  Opel was bought out by General Motors.   BMW was bought out by private investors.    They were all bought out when they were on the verge of bankruptcy. 

Offline bobbymike

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Re: Advancedboy's delusional ravings on Western vs Russian aerospace
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2013, 12:53:56 pm »
Have you ever considered why none of Japanese car companies have ever bankrupted while majority of US ones have? None of German have. What does German car industry have in  common with Japanese? Need a hint?

Urrr, because the Japanese and German car companies that you've heard of have survived the descent into bankruptcy by being bought out before actually going into receivership?   
 
Nissan was bought out by Ranault.   Mazda was bought out by Ford.   Mitsubishi was bought out by Daimler Benz,  Opel was bought out by General Motors.   BMW was bought out by private investors.    They were all bought out when they were on the verge of bankruptcy. 

I have read all of Advanceboy's comments on this thread and have to admit I have no idea what he is talking about. US aerospace dominates the global market along with Airbus add in military/commercial sats and weapons and I come to the exact opposite conclusion.
 
When you make such claims sources would be nice cause I happen to have missed all the peer reviewed economic analysis' on the death of US defense and aerospace.
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