Advancedboy's delusional ravings on Western vs Russian aerospace

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Matej

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ADVANCEDBOY said:
This is how you should do the business the honest way. Roll up the sleeves and do some elbow grease. Do some physical input by actually building things, not vapourwaring CGIs , scale demonstrators and press releases. There is no substitute for real work. This is Mil -54 helicopter. They have already built full scale mockup.

Please not too much offtopic here (I deleted your last two posts)! I am missing your point - for example B-2 was intentionally build completely without any mockups, demonstrators or such a things to save the money, because everything can be done in the CAD/CAM system and full scale "Y" pre-production prototype is the first real thing to be build. You posted Mi-38 photo as the example of the "real" work - should I tell you how many decades ago the development of this type started? And how many examples were actually build till date? JHL program is a long run, so naturally we can see a lot of CGI in this early stage.
 
This is Mil -54 helicopter. They have already built full scale mockup.

1992 - R&D on Mi-54 has started
2007 - full-scale mock-up built, 2011 declared as year of first flight, but no metal was ever cut so far
...
PROFIT!
 
Matej said:
for example B-2 was intentionally build completely without any mockups, demonstrators or such a things to save the money, because everything can be done in the CAD/CAM system

How can we know for sure there weren't any subscale demonstrator of flying scale models of some kind? But maybe you're right... What is for sure is that there was an RCS pole model, so I guess they still needed some real-life tests prior to building the type. Also I believe that Tacit Blue also partly served to demonstrate some stealth features that were later used in the B-2.
 
Somehow Russians have more tendency of actually building stuff, rather than just planning and talking about it. if you look at civil aviation ,it has the same pattern- russkies constantly crank out new planes- by new I mean starting from 80ies, because life cycle of a plane isn`t comparable to a car, for example. Here are some examples- Tu-334, Tu-204,Sukhoi100, An-148,Il-96, An -70, Su-80, etc. No wonder they are experts in civil aviation, i would even claim they are the best in civil aviation by far( undoubtedly the best fuselage engineering.). How does a single boeing 787 stack against the whole plethora of planes? How does s-92 stack against cornucopia of choppers from Russia? You gain expertize by diversity and healthy competition, once competition is gone, the expertize takes the lowest market denominator- patriotism. If the competition was `at the round table`, how would Be-200 stack against the old western hydroplanes? How would Mil-26 stack against western alikes? Unfortunately competition in western hemisphere, especially US is more of a religion, it is based on beliefs of values, not measurments of values. This is where my skepticism comes dealing with realities of a program with a nice loud name`Joint Heavy Lift`.
 
P.S. looking at manifold Mil chopper programs we have to play a game ` sort out the sucker`. it is clear that irregardless of Mil expertize, they have a bit too many programs to deal with- mi-x1, mi-38, mi-54, mi-46, Mi-58. ( I usually miss out the choppers that don`t have landing gears, as I don`t consider them choppers at all.). Any guesses, which programs would most likely be given a `GO`. Well, Mi-38 is already flying.
 
ADVANCEDBOY said:
How does a single boeing 787 stack against the whole plethora of planes?

Very well. The discriminator is number of units sold and built
 
ADVANCEDBOY said:
How does a single boeing 787 stack against the whole plethora of planes?

I think Boeing is more than happy to build fewer types that sell in large numbers rather than large numbers of types that sell in fewer numbers.

How does s-92 stack against cornucopia of choppers from Russia?

so your question is, how does this one western helicopter compare to ALL Russian helicopters?

You gain expertize by diversity and healthy competition, once competition is gone, the expertize takes the lowest market denominator- patriotism.

Which is odd because for 70 years capitalist style competition was frowned upon (to say the least) in Russia, and what competition there existed was often crushed by political favoritism, not "healthy competition" to say the least.

How would Mil-26 stack against western alikes?

well what are we measuring? If we are measuring size the Halo wins. If we are measuring the ability to operate from a ship the Ch-53E wins. If we are measuring speed, a CH-47 can get surprisingly fast (like 170 knots+) thanks to its two huge rotor disks, If we are measuring range a V-22 is exceptional.

Unfortunately competition in western hemisphere, especially US is more of a religion, it is based on beliefs of values, not measurments of values. This is where my skepticism comes dealing with realities of a program with a nice loud name`Joint Heavy Lift`.

You and the western hemisphere seem to have different ideas of what is valuable.

Finally (and please feel free to correct me on this) I'm pretty Russia/USSR built more mock-ups and prototypes because of a lack of computers and other tools western manufacturers had in a greater abundance.
 
Platform diversity is a key component to enlarged expertize. Diversity of product range allows a company to adopt to manifold ondulations of demand and adjust to specific market better. It can`t be done in an environment of political favoritism and badge preference and rotating door principle where secret handshakes in fraternity are paramount instead of engineering supremacy. This is why US has widlfire inferno, but no one is buying Beriev`s superb hydro planes, which can land and be refilled with water within minutes.
We can observe that the biggest Alpha Tier engineering companies have a couple of similar traits- 1. Product diversity.2 . Domestic character of complex, expertise driven components and their engineering. A weakness is considered rebadging, outsourcing, lack of domestic engineering of complex components, and hit or miss product strategy that stems from a poor product range, obsolete product range, slow overhaul cycle and government fleet sales strategy. Alpha Tier company` strategy benefits highly skilled workforce, which benefits the local and state economy by improving purchasing power and sustaining expertize levels for continuous competitivness. Do you want to learn from Japan or Once A Great Britain engineering expertize? Save the Russia, their hegemony in civil aircraft diversity is rather a a force of inertia than sheer calculated beefing up of once powerful muscles....
 
ADVANCEDBOY said:
Platform diversity is a key component to enlarged expertize. Diversity of product range allows a company to adopt to manifold ondulations of demand and adjust to specific market better. It can`t be done in an environment of political favoritism and badge preference and rotating door principle where secret handshakes in fraternity are paramount instead of engineering supremacy.

Well that was the USSR.

This is why US has widlfire inferno, but no one is buying Beriev`s superb hydro planes, which can land and be refilled with water within minutes.

Umm no. Wildfires are typically fought using government contracts to civilian companies (occasionally military aircraft participate but they are not really trained for it, and all aircraft military and civil must be approved by the US Forest Service) We would see Beriev Sea planes in operation if they were cheaper to operate, more common, and had better logistics in the west. there is no purpose in buying some whiz bang piece of kit if there are no parts for it, or if it bankrupts who is working with it.

The Sea planes also need room to land and takeoff, where as the helicopters will take their water from bodies of water as small as swimming pools. Can a beriev sea plane land in a swimming pool and tank up? When we use fixed wing aircraft they typically drop not water, but flame retardant anyway. It has nothing to do "engineering supremacy"

A weakness is considered rebadging, outsourcing, lack of domestic engineering of complex components, and hit or miss product strategy that stems from a poor product range, obsolete product range, slow overhaul cycle and government fleet sales strategy.

Russia has been having these problems in case you havn't noticed.

Alpha Tier company` strategy benefits highly skilled workforce, which benefits the local and state economy by improving purchasing power and sustaining expertize levels for continuous competitivness. Do you want to learn from Japan or Once A Great Britain engineering expertize? Save the Russia, their hegemony in civil aircraft diversity is rather a a force of inertia than sheer calculated beefing up of once powerful muscles....


Last I checked sales of western aircraft (of amazing variety BTW) vastly outpaced Russia. I know what you are trying to say. You are trying to say russia has cooler and more interesting stuff, so this must be because Russia has engineering super men and the west is just caught up in some outmodded theocracy, but I;m sorry the numbers speak for themselves. Western gear sells, and it sells well, and I assume it sells well because its stuff worth having, and repeat business speaks to its success, we continue to see nations that used soviet gear using it until it wears out and then buying western aircraft.
 
It is not Russian versus Western. It is the nosediving US versus nosediving Russia and emerging European industry and other countries, such as China. While Russia is going south from being a king of North, it still has a behemoth expertize that has a strong residual value to make the next generation platforms such as MS-21 or upcoming Il-214 ( MTA). The civil aircraft market will be more and more saturated with new products, unfortunately it will have to do less and less with US. Besides Airbus a350 there is Bombardier c-series, upcoming MRJ, MS-21, Comac c-919 etc. Boeing will have to squeeze more and more or create non-existent PR stunts and marketing tricks to concince the customer to buy their product purely on legend basis. Reminds me of Harley-Davidson, Bose or Kodak.
IF you can`t see similarities in US manufacturing that has lead to death of these companies with thriving Japanese companies , that have done exactly the opposite, then I can`t help you. Us industries are doing exactly the opposite that say, Toyota is doing( strong domestic engineering, rapid product overhaul cycle, ever increasing product diversity, superb fit and finish, reliability) and I already see symptoms in Boeing that zapped MDD. Have you ever considered why none of Japanese car companies have ever bankrupted while majority of US ones have? None of German have. What does German car industry have in common with Japanese? Need a hint? Exactly what bankrupts US car companies, will bankrupt every other US based precision engineering industry, be it industrial robots, trains, trucks or airplanes. It goes exactly in footsteps symptom by symptom with British car industry.

(PS. I wonder how would Fairchild Dornier 728/928 story have ended, had it not involved a US company as a partner?)
 
Interestingly the 22 July edition of Defense News headline is "Russians Surge as US, Euro Firms Slip".
 
ADVANCEDBOY said:
It is not Russian versus Western. It is the nosediving US versus nosediving Russia and emerging European industry and other countries, such as China. While Russia is going south from being a king of North, it still has a behemoth expertize that has a strong residual value to make the next generation platforms such as MS-21 or upcoming Il-214 ( MTA). The civil aircraft market will be more and more saturated with new products, unfortunately it will have to do less and less with US. Besides Airbus a350 there is Bombardier c-series, upcoming MRJ, MS-21, Comac c-919 etc. Boeing will have to squeeze more and more or create non-existent PR stunts and marketing tricks to concince the customer to buy their product purely on legend basis. Reminds me of Harley-Davidson, Bose or Kodak.
IF you can`t see similarities in US manufacturing that has lead to death of these companies with thriving Japanese companies , that have done exactly the opposite, then I can`t help you. Us industries are doing exactly the opposite that say, Toyota is doing( strong domestic engineering, rapid product overhaul cycle, ever increasing product diversity, superb fit and finish, reliability) and I already see symptoms in Boeing that zapped MDD. Have you ever considered why none of Japanese car companies have ever bankrupted while majority of US ones have? None of German have. What does German car industry have in common with Japanese? Need a hint? Exactly what bankrupts US car companies, will bankrupt every other US based precision engineering industry, be it industrial robots, trains, trucks or airplanes. It goes exactly in footsteps symptom by symptom with British car industry.

(PS. I wonder how would Fairchild Dornier 728/928 story have ended, had it not involved a US company as a partner?)

Cars are not aircraft and vice versa.
 
ADVANCEDBOY said:
Have you ever considered why none of Japanese car companies have ever bankrupted while majority of US ones have? None of German have. What does German car industry have in common with Japanese? Need a hint?

Urrr, because the Japanese and German car companies that you've heard of have survived the descent into bankruptcy by being bought out before actually going into receivership?

Nissan was bought out by Ranault. Mazda was bought out by Ford. Mitsubishi was bought out by Daimler Benz, Opel was bought out by General Motors. BMW was bought out by private investors. They were all bought out when they were on the verge of bankruptcy.
 
chuck4 said:
ADVANCEDBOY said:
Have you ever considered why none of Japanese car companies have ever bankrupted while majority of US ones have? None of German have. What does German car industry have in common with Japanese? Need a hint?

Urrr, because the Japanese and German car companies that you've heard of have survived the descent into bankruptcy by being bought out before actually going into receivership?

Nissan was bought out by Ranault. Mazda was bought out by Ford. Mitsubishi was bought out by Daimler Benz, Opel was bought out by General Motors. BMW was bought out by private investors. They were all bought out when they were on the verge of bankruptcy.

I have read all of Advanceboy's comments on this thread and have to admit I have no idea what he is talking about. US aerospace dominates the global market along with Airbus add in military/commercial sats and weapons and I come to the exact opposite conclusion.

When you make such claims sources would be nice cause I happen to have missed all the peer reviewed economic analysis' on the death of US defense and aerospace.
 
It doesn`t matter who was bought out by who, but who manages the core of multi-billion dollar engineering business, and who employs real , highly skilled people in volume. The packs of highly skilled and paid workforce create a region of purchasing power, that spreads the wealth further. Do you ever wonder ,how come, average salary in China is gazillion times lower than in US, yet the highest skyscraper construction projects are in China- Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Tianjin, Wuhan, Beijing, etc. The answer is not money or ownership, but the exchange value of skilled workforce. For example, one engineer creates enough purchasing power for 3 construction workers to be employed. This is what creates real economies. And it is not important how big their salaries are, but what the value of their purchasing power is and how it is distributed along the workforce. Most US Hollywood studios are owned by Japanese, Mack trucks are owned by Renault etc, . Just because Ford has bought shares in Mazda, doesn`t make a nation richer. What matters is that Ford is parasiting on MAZDA engineering, which allowed to slash US workforce and sack real engineers, that were a womb for hardcore expertize. Once those 65$ an hour engineers are fired, they join the herds of WallMart salesclerk prides. This spirals into drop of constuction of new homes, yachts, etc. Ditto about GM. Opel ownership has allowed them to parasite on German engineering for decades, slash domestic engineering hardcore workforce and fill useless corporate coffers for the few chosen ones. The similar situation is in truck segment where many trucks are based on foreign platforms. I even won`t mention Chrysler which is a desperate whore every decade looking to have someone to have an engineering piggy ride on.When was the last time a US based company hired 300 engineers and built a car on a brand new in-house built platform? Japanese did it just about 5 months ago. When was the last time you saw a wristwatch which had US movt?Was it before the big dustbowl?
You see, you might slap the Chevy badges on Daewoo cars and imitate American car industry, but the real purchasing power is transferred to South Korea which translates in construction of Lotte Tower, Tau engine families and mammoth spread of Samsung conglomerate.
Analogy crawls into civil aviation. If you think that endlessly squeezing blood out of 787 with PR stunts is going to end well for Boeing in next 30 years versus the whole plethora of Boeing`s adversaries cranking out new products, then you might be wrong at least. You already saw where Boeing was, once it had to down all Dreamliners, which was the only civil aircraft engineered by a US based company in last 15 years. Don`t you think diversity would have helped a bit? Do you really think that you can sell forever a 50 year old 737 fuselage just by milking a legend? Don`t you think that Airbus is going to sell more and more due to regular product overhaul ? Where was that Boeing`s research that claimed that large double deck superjumbo`s wouldn`t sell? Not only A380 created a `halo jetliner` for Airbus , it beefed up their engineering expertize and created a a lot of positions for highly skilled and paid workforce. What does this have to do with a wealth of a nation? Well, those droves of highly paid engineers will buy VW cars and houses, and Bosch drills and Siemens refrigerators and spread their purchasing power across the nation, allowing a similar engineering to happen in other segments- be it consumer electronics, car industry or LHC. If you outsource everything, have a local basketball team, 10WallMarts with 9bucks an hour workforce and 5 billionaires who own shares in largest corporations, you end up in Detroit. You see the 5 billionaires aren`t going to buy 40000 Chevrolets or Buicks, but the Wallmart employees won`t buy even a one. So you create a catch 22 domino, where houses aren`t built, cars aren`t assembled and powerhouses renovated..all because the exchange of added value in local economy isn`t happening. The economy of golf courts, psychologists and stock brokers is a short living one.
And US military is the strongest in the world, but I want industries that yield actual benefit to her people, be it a nicely engineered Buick , a pavement, or CNC milling machine. And it can`t happen if the workforce of this great nation is sequestered from actually making things.
 
ADVANCEDBOY said:
It doesn`t matter who was bought out by who, but who manages the core of multi-billion dollar engineering business, and who employs real , highly skilled people in volume. The packs of highly skilled and paid workforce create a region of purchasing power, that spreads the wealth further. Do you ever wonder ,how come, average salary in China is gazillion times lower than in US, yet the highest skyscraper construction projects are in China- Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Tianjin, Wuhan, Beijing, etc. The answer is not money or ownership, but the exchange value of skilled workforce. For example, one engineer creates enough purchasing power for 3 construction workers to be employed. This is what creates real economies. And it is not important how big their salaries are, but what the value of their purchasing power is and how it is distributed along the workforce. Most US Hollywood studios are owned by Japanese, Mack trucks are owned by Renault etc, . Just because Ford has bought shares in Mazda, doesn`t make a nation richer. What matters is that Ford is parasiting on MAZDA engineering, which allowed to slash US workforce and sack real engineers, that were a womb for hardcore expertize. Once those 65$ an hour engineers are fired, they join the herds of WallMart salesclerk prides. This spirals into drop of constuction of new homes, yachts, etc. Ditto about GM. Opel ownership has allowed them to parasite on German engineering for decades, slash domestic engineering hardcore workforce and fill useless corporate coffers for the few chosen ones. The similar situation is in truck segment where many trucks are based on foreign platforms. I even won`t mention Chrysler which is a desperate whore every decade looking to have someone to have an engineering piggy ride on.When was the last time a US based company hired 300 engineers and built a car on a brand new in-house built platform? Japanese did it just about 5 months ago. When was the last time you saw a wristwatch which had US movt?Was it before the big dustbowl?
You see, you might slap the Chevy badges on Daewoo cars and imitate American car industry, but the real purchasing power is transferred to South Korea which translates in construction of Lotte Tower, Tau engine families and mammoth spread of Samsung conglomerate.
Analogy crawls into civil aviation. If you think that endlessly squeezing blood out of 787 with PR stunts is going to end well for Boeing in next 30 years versus the whole plethora of Boeing`s adversaries cranking out new products, then you might be wrong at least. You already saw where Boeing was, once it had to down all Dreamliners, which was the only civil aircraft engineered by a US based company in last 15 years. Don`t you think diversity would have helped a bit? Do you really think that you can sell forever a 50 year old 737 fuselage just by milking a legend? Don`t you think that Airbus is going to sell more and more due to regular product overhaul ? Where was that Boeing`s research that claimed that large double deck superjumbo`s wouldn`t sell? Not only A380 created a `halo jetliner` for Airbus , it beefed up their engineering expertize and created a a lot of positions for highly skilled and paid workforce. What does this have to do with a wealth of a nation? Well, those droves of highly paid engineers will buy VW cars and houses, and Bosch drills and Siemens refrigerators and spread their purchasing power across the nation, allowing a similar engineering to happen in other segments- be it consumer electronics, car industry or LHC. If you outsource everything, have a local basketball team, 10WallMarts with 9bucks an hour workforce and 5 billionaires who own shares in largest corporations, you end up in Detroit. You see the 5 billionaires aren`t going to buy 40000 Chevrolets or Buicks, but the Wallmart employees won`t buy even a one. So you create a catch 22 domino, where houses aren`t built, cars aren`t assembled and powerhouses renovated..all because the exchange of added value in local economy isn`t happening. The economy of golf courts, psychologists and stock brokers is a short living one.
And US military is the strongest in the world, but I want industries that yield actual benefit to her people, be it a nicely engineered Buick , a pavement, or CNC milling machine. And it can`t happen if the workforce of this great nation is sequestered from actually making things.

The latest iterations of the 737 are selling rather well. By your theory nothing has really changed since the DC-3 hey it's a tube with wings.

Can you show me one 'leap ahead' technology some country is close to fielding that will make these products obsolete? US has been flying stealth aircraft for 30 years rest of the world ZERO! It took scientists and engineers for that did it not?

The US has only 5% of the population it was inevitable that as technology spread through cheap access to computers (gee where did they come from) etc. the US would fall 'in proportion' to other nations like India and China with over 10X the populations, yet I believe the US still dominates invention, discovery, patents, Nobel Prizes with only 5% of the world's population. You equate other nations rising with the US falling completely different concept. The value of US manufacturing is at a record and growing as 'insources' brings factories home.

Any sources or is this theory? Your argument is very tendentious.
 
I enjoyed the subtle renaming of this thread, however If I may suggest.... replace theory with hypothesis (belief may be even more appropriate)

Theory is a contemplative and rational type of abstract or generalizing thinking, or the results of such thinking. A theory is not the same as a hypothesis, as a theory is a 'proven' hypothesis, that, in other words, has never been disproved through experiment, and has a basis in fact.
 
chuck4 said:
Nissan was bought out by Ranault. Mazda was bought out by Ford. Mitsubishi was bought out by Daimler Benz, Opel was bought out by General Motors. BMW was bought out by private investors. They were all bought out when they were on the verge of bankruptcy.

It stands to reason that they were all bought out because the buyers/investors saw economic value (whether in terms of branding, established market share, or technical know how) in them, as opposed to US examples that didn't find any takers apart from the USG for bailing them out.

Martin
 
ADVANCEDBOY said:
It doesn`t matter who was bought out by who, but who manages the core of multi-billion dollar engineering business, and who employs real , highly skilled people in volume. The packs of highly skilled and paid workforce create a region of purchasing power, that spreads the wealth further. Do you ever wonder ,how come, average salary in China is gazillion times lower than in US, yet the highest skyscraper construction projects are in China- Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Tianjin, Wuhan, Beijing, etc. The answer is not money or ownership, but the exchange value of skilled workforce. For example, one engineer creates enough purchasing power for 3 construction workers to be employed. This is what creates real economies. And it is not important how big their salaries are, but what the value of their purchasing power is and how it is distributed along the workforce. Most US Hollywood studios are owned by Japanese, Mack trucks are owned by Renault etc, . Just because Ford has bought shares in Mazda, doesn`t make a nation richer. What matters is that Ford is parasiting on MAZDA engineering, which allowed to slash US workforce and sack real engineers, that were a womb for hardcore expertize. Once those 65$ an hour engineers are fired, they join the herds of WallMart salesclerk prides. This spirals into drop of constuction of new homes, yachts, etc. Ditto about GM. Opel ownership has allowed them to parasite on German engineering for decades, slash domestic engineering hardcore workforce and fill useless corporate coffers for the few chosen ones. The similar situation is in truck segment where many trucks are based on foreign platforms. I even won`t mention Chrysler which is a desperate whore every decade looking to have someone to have an engineering piggy ride on.When was the last time a US based company hired 300 engineers and built a car on a brand new in-house built platform? Japanese did it just about 5 months ago. When was the last time you saw a wristwatch which had US movt?Was it before the big dustbowl?
You see, you might slap the Chevy badges on Daewoo cars and imitate American car industry, but the real purchasing power is transferred to South Korea which translates in construction of Lotte Tower, Tau engine families and mammoth spread of Samsung conglomerate.
Analogy crawls into civil aviation. If you think that endlessly squeezing blood out of 787 with PR stunts is going to end well for Boeing in next 30 years versus the whole plethora of Boeing`s adversaries cranking out new products, then you might be wrong at least. You already saw where Boeing was, once it had to down all Dreamliners, which was the only civil aircraft engineered by a US based company in last 15 years. Don`t you think diversity would have helped a bit? Do you really think that you can sell forever a 50 year old 737 fuselage just by milking a legend? Don`t you think that Airbus is going to sell more and more due to regular product overhaul ? Where was that Boeing`s research that claimed that large double deck superjumbo`s wouldn`t sell? Not only A380 created a `halo jetliner` for Airbus , it beefed up their engineering expertize and created a a lot of positions for highly skilled and paid workforce. What does this have to do with a wealth of a nation? Well, those droves of highly paid engineers will buy VW cars and houses, and Bosch drills and Siemens refrigerators and spread their purchasing power across the nation, allowing a similar engineering to happen in other segments- be it consumer electronics, car industry or LHC. If you outsource everything, have a local basketball team, 10WallMarts with 9bucks an hour workforce and 5 billionaires who own shares in largest corporations, you end up in Detroit. You see the 5 billionaires aren`t going to buy 40000 Chevrolets or Buicks, but the Wallmart employees won`t buy even a one. So you create a catch 22 domino, where houses aren`t built, cars aren`t assembled and powerhouses renovated..all because the exchange of added value in local economy isn`t happening. The economy of golf courts, psychologists and stock brokers is a short living one.
And US military is the strongest in the world, but I want industries that yield actual benefit to her people, be it a nicely engineered Buick , a pavement, or CNC milling machine. And it can`t happen if the workforce of this great nation is sequestered from actually making things.

Is this a joke? this is the very definition of a Non sequitur

WE basically have advance boy using every piece of info (hollywood and cars?) he can gather to try and prove the US/west isn't building what he prefers.

And we have reams of evidence, and little things like sales to prove that western engineering is doing quite well and yes it is innovating, its just not what advanceboy likes.
 
If US manufacturing is rebounding, how come wages for workers in manufacturing sector are constantly falling? Isn`t that if there is a huge demand for skilled labour, that salaries should grow? Was choking labour unions the sole reason for it?
As to Boeing selling obsolete 737 just because it complies with basics of aerodynamics doesn`t work here. It is all about attitude and willingness to innovate and overhaul product range. Why do Japanese when designing a new car, create a brand new body, while many American car companies simply do regrille or rebadge? Why japanese companies never take an old minivan like Ford Windstar and regrille it leaving with old safety cage and A/B pillars? Why they don`t take old Mercury Grand Marquis and squeeze Marauder out of it? How come they don`t take old German Opel Omega and make Cadillac Catera or Pontiac GTO? How come they don`t take American cars and rebadge them as , say, Toyota Matrix, but it is always vice versa? How come no Japanese car is rebadged as german, and no German car is rebadged as Japanese? How come Chrysler is left without a single of its own platforms, except some trucks?The only car platform Ford has got( that is its own) is rear live axle obsolete Fox platform used on `stang. Its demise is planned next year. Do you really think that all these foreign companies that are transferring components to the big 3 are doing it for free? Do you really think that Mercedes is providing Grand Cherokee with engines and chassis for free?Where will that money end? Do you realize how much money Mercedes invested in people and skilled labour in Germany to crank out such a platform? Do you realize how many engineers were fired in US because of the same reason?
It is all about attitude- either you work the honest way and create new products or you do it US way- rebadge old MDD airplanes, powder a nose of an obsolete 737 and endlessly stretch a 747 . Or you do it the Airbus way, and I promise in 25 years Boeing will be in agony the same way as MDD was. By the way, didn`t the old DC-10 have the same aerodynamics as MDD-11, right, why build a brand new fuselage.
When customers buy a new airplane, they don`t want to see a rebadged and slightly improved airplane, they want to see that you are serious about business, and that you can build a brand new product. We don`t want Samsung refrigerators rebadged as General Electric, we want General Electric to employ actual engineers and create the household appliances themselves. I don`t want German built and engineered Opels sold as Buicks, while most Americans bought that Buick just because they thought it is an American product. I don`t want Japanese Sony radios in my Mondeo, I want those Ford engineers back from foodstamps and build those radios they once did under Fords own wings.
Wasn`t the Mercury brand killed because it stood for nothing, because it was just a regrilled Ford? Didn`t Mullaly endlessly promise to differentiate Mercury from Ford? What did Plymouth stand for? Geo?
When was the last time US based company built a modern School bus? A train?( don`t even mention Bombardier`s engineered Amtrak)? A bicycle with their own movement? A serious digital camera with in-house designed lens?


You see, the collapse of industrial manufacturing doesn`t happen in one day, it is rather like a cancer that takes over all your body, and because tumours would show on scales increase of weight, many would consider it a healthy growth. This is how cancer works- Dodge takes and regrilles Mercedes medium duty Sprinter van and discontinues its own aging Ram van. New york taxis are overtaken by Nissan`s new van, aging Crown Victorias are replaced with Maximas and Altimas, etc., the list goes on endlessly from Cincinnatti-Milacron to Lewis and Giddings.
What you call US manufacturing rebounding is foreign manufacturing subsidiaries like Toyota and BMW increasing manufacturing capacity, re-export of foreing components and packaging of import products. Probably primitive industries like bubble wrapper, chewing gum, Tupperware, Mattel and Zippo are rebounding but hardcore precision engineering based ones aren`t. For that to happen I would like to see the lists of thousand hired engineers and new tooling cheques. And of course, name me those engineered products that those engineers are creating, for God`s sake. Preferably show me the shelf they are sold at.
As to Russian and American aerospace, I think Russia is totally wasting their potential, they don`t understand that competition in US is decided by revolving doors. You really think that company that can engineer An-225 or Su-47 wouldn`t have a capacity to create parts distribution and supply net under laissez-faire? What is that makes Su-100 or An-148 so appealing for India but so appaling for United States?
What does the cancer look like in US manufacturing? If we zoom in ,it looks like this- it looks like huge gaps between Oldsmobile Aurora`s front bumper and headlights. It looks like the rusted OHV blocks on your gas guzzlers, it looks like a Philips electric shaver rebadged as Norelco. It looks like a volume knob on a gray and shoddy Pontiac`s A/C control. it looks like leaf springs on your Dodge Caravans and it looks exactly like a black plastic single piece cast sideview mirror on your Mustang. It looks like a fuselage of 737, and it looks like a monochromatic digital screen on Bose audio. It looks like a shiny flower in a middle of a meadow sprayed with glyphosate. A jar of honey having an aftertaste of synthetic nicotinoids and hive of dead bees next to it in rubbles of Flint.
With pain, with real pain I watch the demise of the greatest engineering empire of all time......in front of my eyes.
 
If US manufacturing is rebounding, how come wages for workers in manufacturing sector are constantly falling? Isn`t that if there is a huge demand for skilled labour, that salaries should grow? Was choking labour unions the sole reason for it?
As to Boeing selling obsolete 737 just because it complies with basics of aerodynamics doesn`t work here. It is all about attitude and willingness to innovate and overhaul product range. Why do Japanese when designing a new car, create a brand new body, while many American car companies simply do regrille or rebadge? Why japanese companies never take an old minivan like Ford Windstar and regrille it leaving with old safety cage and A/B pillars? Why they don`t take old Mercury Grand Marquis and squeeze Marauder out of it? How come they don`t take old German Opel Omega and make Cadillac Catera or Pontiac GTO? How come they don`t take American cars and rebadge them as , say, Toyota Matrix, but it is always vice versa? How come no Japanese car is rebadged as german, and no German car is rebadged as Japanese? How come Chrysler is left without a single of its own platforms, except some trucks?The only car platform Ford has got( that is its own) is rear live axle obsolete Fox platform used on `stang. Its demise is planned next year. Do you really think that all these foreign companies that are transferring components to the big 3 are doing it for free? Do you really think that Mercedes is providing Grand Cherokee with engines and chassis for free?Where will that money end? Do you realize how much money Mercedes invested in people and skilled labour in Germany to crank out such a platform? Do you realize how many engineers were fired in US because of the same reason?
It is all about attitude- either you work the honest way and create new products or you do it US way- rebadge old MDD airplanes, powder a nose of an obsolete 737 and endlessly stretch a 747 . Or you do it the Airbus way, and I promise in 25 years Boeing will be in agony the same way as MDD was. By the way, didn`t the old DC-10 have the same aerodynamics as MDD-11, right, why build a brand new fuselage.
When customers buy a new airplane, they don`t want to see a rebadged and slightly improved airplane, they want to see that you are serious about business, and that you can build a brand new product.
We don`t want Samsung refrigerators rebadged as General Electric, we want General Electric to employ actual engineers and create the household appliances themselves. I don`t want German built and engineered Opels sold as Buicks, while most Americans bought that Buick just because they thought it is an American product. I don`t want Japanese Sony radios in my Mondeo, I want those Ford engineers back from foodstamps and build those radios they once did under Fords own wings.
Wasn`t the Mercury brand killed because it stood for nothing, because it was just a regrilled Ford? Didn`t Mullaly endlessly promise to differentiate Mercury from Ford? What did Plymouth stand for? Geo?
When was the last time US based company built a modern School bus? A train?( don`t even mention Bombardier`s engineered Amtrak)? A bicycle with their own movement? A serious digital camera with in-house designed lens?


You see, the collapse of industrial manufacturing doesn`t happen in one day, it is rather like a cancer that takes over all your body, and because tumours would show on scales increase of weight, many would consider it a healthy growth. This is how cancer works- Dodge takes and regrilles Mercedes medium duty Sprinter van and discontinues its own aging Ram van. New york taxis are overtaken by Nissan`s new van, aging Crown Victorias are replaced with Maximas and Altimas, etc., the list goes on endlessly from Cincinnatti-Milacron to Lewis and Giddings.
What you call US manufacturing rebounding is foreign manufacturing subsidiaries like Toyota and BMW increasing manufacturing capacity, re-export of foreing components and packaging of import products. Probably primitive industries like bubble wrapper, chewing gum, Tupperware, Mattel and Zippo are rebounding but hardcore precision engineering based ones aren`t. For that to happen I would like to see the lists of thousand hired engineers and new tooling cheques. And of course, name me those engineered products that those engineers are creating, for God`s sake. Preferably show me the shelf they are sold at.
As to Russian and American aerospace, I think Russia is totally wasting their potential, they don`t understand that competition in US is decided by revolving doors. You really think that company that can engineer An-225 or Su-47 wouldn`t have a capacity to create parts distribution and supply net under laissez-faire? What is that makes Su-100 or An-148 so appealing for India but so appaling for United States?
What does the cancer look like in US manufacturing? If we zoom in ,it looks like this- it looks like huge gaps between Oldsmobile Aurora`s front bumper and headlights. It looks like the rusted OHV blocks on your gas guzzlers, it looks like a Philips electric shaver rebadged as Norelco. It looks like a volume knob on a gray and shoddy Pontiac`s A/C control. it looks like leaf springs on your Dodge Caravans and it looks exactly like a black plastic single piece cast sideview mirror on your Mustang. It looks like a fuselage of 737, and it looks like a monochromatic digital screen on Bose audio. It looks like a shiny flower in a middle of a meadow sprayed with glyphosate. A jar of honey having an aftertaste of synthetic nicotinoids and hive of dead bees next to it in rubbles of Flint.
With pain, with real pain I watch the demise of the greatest engineering empire of all time......in front of my eyes.

God this is why I hate Keypublishing forum... :mad:


Oh wait this is secret projects? :'(


I bolded the parts that at least mention aircraft, all the rest is opined hearsay trying connect cars with airplanes and then using that as a measure of.... What again? I don't know where advanced boy is getting his info but I would declare it sketchy at best. Can we at least keep the rants AEROSPACE-based here on the AEROSPACE subforum?
 
So we're are talking about electric razors now, really?

And my post about US manufacturing rebounding because I found one story was sarcastic if you couldn't tell.

In 2012, the latest year of statistics, the US had 49.5% of patent application and was granted 48% of the world's patents WITH ONLY 5% of the population. YET THIS is a great decline historically even though US applications have increased 400% the rest of the wolrd's have increased 1400%.

This is the world rising and not necessarily the US falling. What do you think happens when you release the imagination and innovation of a few billion people this is a great thing and good for all humanity.

But let me ask you again;

Please shows me the ground breaking innovation 'leap ahead' technologies that are going to make the 737, 777, 787, 747 and every US advanced weapon system obsolete?

I mean you are talking about the other 95% of the world surely you can show me one example of a ready to build 'revolutionary' product completely brand new and not an iteration of ANY existing product.
 
If I have it right, and I have discussed this specifically in another thread with helicopters and advanceboy, He is upset that a lot of American manufacturers have a "If its not broke, don't fix it" attitude, and he perceives this lack of "risk taking" as a lack on innovation. But of course the US does take risks, It also needs to sell the "boring" stuff to keep the lights on though. US Gov R&D budget is phenomenal and exceeds what a lot of countries spend on their entire military, not to mention black projects, and of course civil/corporate research expenditures as well. Boeing has a great habit of building what sells, and fulfilling the needs of its customers with large volumes and variety of solid aircraft, but it doesn't really set advanceboy's heart aflutter so the US must be doomed-- unlike Russia, which has seen some serious setbacks since the fall of the USSR.

Advance boy decides to take the exception to prove the rule, with a bunch of other non pertinent garbage thrown in to see what sticks in an extremely convoluted, meandering case that quickly becomes more about his perception of demographics, economics and a little bit of nationalism tossed here and there.
 
OK, this is simply delusional raving by a forum member.

Closing the topic. Any more topics like this will result in a ban.

Please everyone else note the forum rule about not feeding trolls.
 
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