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Author Topic: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects  (Read 89494 times)

Offline pometablava

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Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« on: November 28, 2006, 09:27:47 am »
Aviation Magazine Num 768 (15-XII-79)

On page 71 we find a reference about 110P fighter which was a development of Type 100P racer ordered in 1939 by Ministère de l'Air but never developed due to the outbreak of WWII.

Type 100 info and pics here:

http://www.bugattiaircraft.com/

http://www.bugattiaircraft.com/kalempa.htm

Could anybody post pics of Model 110P? :)

Thanks

Offline red admiral

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2006, 10:06:19 am »
Pics of the model 100 that was built

The 101 had clipped wings

The 110P was to be armed with 1x37mm and 6x7.5mm guns

http://perso.orange.fr/morlock68/bugatti.htm

Offline GTX

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2006, 10:50:14 am »

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2007, 08:53:20 am »
Hi all..
I've read this topic with great interest and visited the mentioned sites.
I'm itching to do a profile of the P110 Interceptor and was wondering what developments/changes/modifications would have been required to make the 110 from the 100.

Red Admiral mentions clipped wings and the armament. The illustration shows 2 guns in each wing but not clipped wings.
I wondered where the 6 guns and the single 37mm may have been housed and how?

I ask those more wise and sage than I, what other mods may have been applied?

Many thanks
Peter
 
"Madness is the normal condition, only interupted by spells of sanity"

Offline red admiral

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2007, 10:16:23 am »
The 37mm gun fired through the propellor. I assume the 6x7.5mm mgs were in the wings as there isn't much space left in the fuselage. For other mods I'd think a radio aerial at least.

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2007, 10:46:52 am »
... and I think, in most cases, where fighters got a curved windscreen, it turned out
to be less than ideal, so I would include at least a flat panel into the canopy.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2007, 10:37:10 pm »
Many thanks to one and all.
I wil definitely do a profile in the near future and will include all these tips.
The only thing I'm a little wary of, is doing the flat pane windscreen on such a large canopy.
I agree with you Jemiba, but I'll have to put my thinking cap on to sort it out and try and make it look "pukka"...lol.

Cheers
Peter
 ;D
"Madness is the normal condition, only interupted by spells of sanity"

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2007, 10:40:15 pm »
PS...
Skybolt
I have not forgotten the Italian project...
Cheers
Peter
  ;D
"Madness is the normal condition, only interupted by spells of sanity"

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2007, 11:49:21 am »
Just a proposal for the flat windscreen . In fact I think, a fighter
with such a heavy armament would have been much larger.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 11:52:10 am by Jemiba »
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline lark

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2007, 02:05:32 pm »
Jemiba ,

The Bugatti Aircraft Association (www.bugattiaircraft.com)
speak about the 110P asof a light pursuit version with 2 guns.
Other sources speak of a "chasseur reconnaissense" reccon. fighter.

This is  maybe closer to the real fighter proposal.

(one 37mmm and six wing guns-2x3- in indeed a bit to much for the
 racer develloped fighter)
 

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2007, 01:08:05 pm »
Well, two guns seems to be much more plausible.
Tomorrow, I'll look for the article about the Bugatti 100 in
the Aviation Francais Magazine, maybe there's a clue.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2007, 03:05:39 am »
Thanks for the illustration Jemiba.
Just what I hoped for.
When I start I may add a forward hoop too...I'll see what it looks like when I get there.

Excellent.
Cheers
Peter
 ;D
"Madness is the normal condition, only interupted by spells of sanity"

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2007, 07:20:20 am »
Another little question...
The 100P had contra 2 blade props.
Do you think for the 110P these would have been upgraded to say 3 bladed ones?

Cheers
Peter
"Madness is the normal condition, only interupted by spells of sanity"

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2007, 12:37:54 pm »
Difficult question indeed ....    ???
I think, in contrast to the britains, who built the first batches of their
Hurricanes and Spitfires still with two bladed props, the french seems to
have favoured three bladed ones for the fighters of that era, just before
the war. But a contra prop may be quite a different affair ! Probably three
blades would allow a lower diameter, compared to two blades and so allow
the installation of guns further inward. But that's just an amateurs opinion,
we need the experts here !
At least, three blades (or better six of two three bladed props) look better !   ;D   
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2007, 08:52:30 pm »
You could get by with a somewhat lower prop rpm using three-bladed props rather than two-bladed ones for the same, or modestly higher, engine output, or you could go with a slightly smaller prop diameter and keep the same rpm.  Personally, I'd go for three-bladed props and an uprated engine for the fighter.

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2007, 10:46:52 pm »
Thank you ...

Nice juicy 3 bladers seem to be in order then.

You are right Jemiba....they will look better... ;D :o

Cheers
Peter
"Madness is the normal condition, only interupted by spells of sanity"

joncarrfarrelly

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2007, 11:19:08 pm »
You could get by with a somewhat lower prop rpm using three-bladed props rather than two-bladed ones for the same, or modestly higher, engine output, or you could go with a slightly smaller prop diameter and keep the same rpm.  Personally, I'd go for three-bladed props and an uprated engine for the fighter.

The question on the engine is, uprated to what?
The racer was to be powered by twin straight-8s, the airframe doesn't have the space for larger engines mounted in the same fashion and getting a useful power boost from the Bugatti engines could have been problematic. Aside from space issues I doubt the rather complicated drive system would have been able to absorb greatly increased power. A more likely power choice would be a single super-charged Hispano 12Y diving a single three-blade propeller...not as sexy as contra-props but much simpler.
Or I suppose one could have the beast powered by Harry A. Millers 1,200 cu in. V-16 aircraft engine design, Miller rated the design at 2,000 hp. ;)

Cheers, Jon

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2007, 11:42:46 pm »
I suspect the only useful power boost one could give the Bugatti engines, assuming they were stressed for it, would be supercharging or turbo-supercharging (most likely the former unless you were going for alititude performance).  For simplicity's sake, I rather like the idea of a Hispano 12Y driving a simple three-bladed prop as you can make the prop gearbox stronger when you don't have to worry about contra-rotating props (fewer gears mean to fit the volume means you can make the individual components more robust).  I wonder, though, if a 16-cylinder equivalent of the 12Y was available and would fit? 

I'd like to know more about the Miller engine, but comparing displacement and output values with the V1650 (Merlin) and Allison V1710, I'm a bit skeptical of that output.

joncarrfarrelly

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2007, 12:20:44 am »
Hi Evan,
the Miller V-16 was one of Harry's 'paper projects' from later in his career. He no longer had Leo Goossen by his side
to turn dreams into practical reality, so its anybody's guess how the engine woudl have turned out.
Miller also worked on a V-16 engine design for Bell during the same period...a replacement for  the V-1710 in the P-39.

Cheers, Jon

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2007, 08:13:01 am »
Hi again

So far for the P110 version, I have...

3 blade prop,
Flat panel windscreen to cockpit,
Clipped wings
and a choice of engines....

I ask...
Which engine(s) would have been the most likely?

Also would the fabric/dope skin have been retained or would a metal one have been adopted instead?


Many thanks
Peter

 ;D
"Madness is the normal condition, only interupted by spells of sanity"

Offline red admiral

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2007, 03:23:02 pm »
Hispano-Suiza 12 Y or Z quite likely. Not much weight increase. Plenty of space to accomodate one. Have to dtich the original contra-props though.

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2007, 07:33:34 am »
Hi all...

work in progress of the P110 profile.
I decided to go with one of the HS 12's as red admiral suggested.

Your comments would be a big help.
Many thanks
Peter
 ;D
"Madness is the normal condition, only interupted by spells of sanity"

Offline smurf

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2007, 09:48:06 am »
Not sure about the tail unit.  The vertical surface may be OK on the racer, but looks a bit vulnerable to a rough landing by a damaged fighter or a wounded pilot.  Is a "conventional" butterfly going too far from the original?

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2007, 10:19:30 pm »
Hi smurf,
You could well be right, but I didn't want to be too radical in changes from the P100, visual ones at least.
I'm trying to do the minimum changes to get a reasonable representation of the P110 version.

But....lol...I could do two versions. One as is and one with more logical changes.

For example, I'm still not sure if I should do the skin in metal or stick with the doped fabric of the P100?

Many thanks
Peter
 ;D
"Madness is the normal condition, only interupted by spells of sanity"

Offline Archibald

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2007, 12:41:20 am »
Hispano-Suiza 12 Y or Z quite likely. Not much weight increase. Plenty of space to accomodate one. Have to dtich the original contra-props though.

Very good!

I would say 12Y (860 hp) for a 1939 aircraft. 12Z only see the light of the day  in the 1945-1946 era. 12Y was the engine of MS-406, VG-33 and D-520  ;)
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Offline smurf

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2007, 01:58:20 am »
Quote
I'm trying to do the minimum changes to get a reasonable representation of the P110 version.
Yes, I thought so.  There is a precedent - the Martin-Baker MB2 appeared with a variety of tails before settling to a conventional one, and later the Supermarine 508 etc. I'd be interested to see the variant.

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2007, 02:46:57 am »
Thanks for the input...great stuff.

I'll continue with this version, then do a set of side views at least with a variety of tail choices.

Any views on metal skin yet?  ::)


Cheers
Peter
 ;D
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 02:49:47 am by Flitzer »
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Offline Farloccus

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2007, 07:05:02 am »

Your (wonderful) website seems to be offline...  ???

Offline Kim Margosein

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2007, 05:40:08 pm »
With all the modification to make the Bugatti fit for military use,  I am reminded of the Bf-209 (the speed record aircraft) that went down the same road.  By the time you make the aircraft and engine robust enough to be useful, you're left with an aircraft with little or no advantage over off the shelf contemporary fighters. 

Kim Margosein

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2007, 11:41:53 pm »
Hi Farloccus
Yes its down at the moment and I don't know why... :-\

My workmate runs it but he's away on holiday, so I'll have to wait his return.

And Kim
you are probably right, but I do this sort of thing for fun and just to see what "might" have been.
It's just that the French had their aircraft development put on hold, so to speak, and with the Bugatti P100 hidden away, I thought it interesting enough to see how things may have panned out under different circumstances.

Many thanks
Peter
"Madness is the normal condition, only interupted by spells of sanity"

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2007, 04:12:19 am »
Hi all'
this is as far as I got with the P110 profile.
Tail variants at a later date.

Cheers
Peter
« Last Edit: April 02, 2007, 04:14:48 am by Flitzer »
"Madness is the normal condition, only interupted by spells of sanity"

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2007, 09:32:44 am »
Really great !
And with regards to the tail unit, I would point to the fact, that
the ventral part isn't just a fin, but has a rudder. So it's more
a reversed conventional tail, but a butterfly tail, I think.   
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline red admiral

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2007, 11:17:24 am »
Shouldn't the wing guns be slightly further outboard? Currently they still need interrupter gear as the prop interferes with them. Generally looks good though.

Offline smurf

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2007, 12:22:41 pm »
Jemiba said
Quote
the ventral part isn't just a fin, but has a rudder
which was part of the reason I thought it vulnerable.  If we are voting, I'd go for a butterfly tail rather than a conventional fin upwards tail unit.  IMHO it somehow seems to fit the plane better.

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2007, 10:49:19 pm »
Many thanks for your comments.

Red Admiral.
You are right. I didn't notice the guns being in line for fouling the prop blades.
I'll fix it. Thanks for the lone of your hawkeye.

Smurf.
I will do another version with, as you say, a Butterfly tail at a later date.

Cheers
Peter
 ;D
"Madness is the normal condition, only interupted by spells of sanity"

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2007, 01:32:14 pm »
Just read the article about the Bugatti 100 and the 110P fighter version
in the Fliegerkalender 2007 ("Aviators Calendar 2007), written by Ferdinand
c.W. Käsmann. He says, the 110P would have been powered by two 525hp,
liquid powered Bugatti 50B engines, derivatives of the type which was used
in sports cars. No mention of the type of prop to be used .
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Kadija_Man

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2007, 09:10:40 pm »
Excuse me for asking but shouldn't there also be some form of air intakes for both the engine aspiration and cooling?  I seem to remember on the racer there were intakes in the roots (which I felt were far too small) for radiater inlets.  They appear to be missing from your profile.

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2007, 11:32:39 pm »
Many thanks for your comments.

Jemiba
I was going to do the 2 x 50B's, but the concensus of opinion suggested the best bet for the fighter version would have been the Hispano Suzia 12Y.
But as I hope to do more variants, I could always do one with the two 50B's.

Rickshaw.
You are right there should be a wing root intake. But on the 100P there was a novel cooling system with intakes on the leading edges of the tail fins and exits at the trailing edges of the main wings right up against the fuselage sides, so the wing root intakes may have only needed comparitively small openings...(?)

Interesting stuff..
Cheers
Peter

 ;D
"Madness is the normal condition, only interupted by spells of sanity"

joncarrfarrelly

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2007, 11:39:12 pm »
This may help visualize the cooling system.

Cheers, Jon

Offline Kadija_Man

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2007, 12:09:50 am »
Rather complex a cooling system.  I wonder if it would have, like so many novel cooling methods have proven good enough for the job?  At least they didn't attempt that other useless system, evaporative cooling!  I think you'll find in a service aircraft, they'd have needed to have larger wing root intakes for the radiators.   Ensuring sufficient cooling has often been the downfall of many a novel aircraft design.   :'(

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2007, 06:27:45 am »
According to this drawing from the patent, the intakes in the leading edges seem
to have had no function for the basic cooling sytem, maybe acting as oil coolers ?

Flitzer, yes, probably the best motorisation for a fighter variant, would have been a single
engine and probably a single prop, if there would have been no reason to counter
torque problems with a contra prop. I just wanted to point out, that Ettore Bugatti
himself proposed the fighter version, too, to be powered by modified car engines.
In itself quite a strange proposal to military customers, I think. Can't think of Willy
Messerschmitt, to have designed his lightweight fighter, which became the Bf 109,
around a powerplant made up of two Mercedes Ben 7.1 litres sports car engines, although
they powered very succesful the Mercedes SSK ...  ;)
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2007, 07:34:16 am »
Many thanks Jemiba, Rickshaw and Joncarrfarrely
Very useful diagrams....excellent.

By the sound of it I could be doing variants for the rest of my life... :o ;D

But I probably will do a version with the original twin engines.

And I'll add a pair of intakes...enlarged slightly to the profile seen above.

Cheers
Peter
 ;D
"Madness is the normal condition, only interupted by spells of sanity"

joncarrfarrelly

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2007, 08:42:39 am »
How about using this low angle V-16 design?


More info at the Bugatti Aircraft site:
http://www.bugattiaircraft.com/

In the text on the site the author makes the following statement:
"The lay-out of the engine, with the very wide angle-V of approx. 135 degrees, is not fit for fighter aircraft."
He is evidently unfamiliar with the 'buried' engine concepts that were being kicked around  in the late '30s - early '40s.
On the drawing the engine width is 1167mm, which is not too wide for a mid- mounted buried engine.

Cheers, Jon

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2007, 08:51:48 am »
Thanks Jon...

I considered using the V16, but read the same "not fit for a fighter" and not being a tech genius, I left it out, but....... ;) as I thought at the time, it would have made a very interesting concept, I may well do one of these brutes too...and let the experts argue over it.... ;D
Finx:   Have I enough life left to do all these variants?


Thanks for the pic.

Cheers
Peter
"Madness is the normal condition, only interupted by spells of sanity"

Offline robunos

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2007, 08:33:15 am »
Just a thought, the drawing posted by jeniba shows jointed drive shafts from the twin engines passing either side of the cockpit.
If, as in flitzer's reconstruction, it was re-engined with a single engine, where would the driveshaft go? A straight shaft would go through the middle of the cockpit (and the pilot).

    robin.
Where ARE the Daleks when you need them......

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2007, 11:59:32 am »
Perhaps under the pilot to the gear in front ? With a shaft bent via a kardan joint ?
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2007, 01:41:41 am »
Just a thought, the drawing posted by jeniba shows jointed drive shafts from the twin engines passing either side of the cockpit.
If, as in flitzer's reconstruction, it was re-engined with a single engine, where would the driveshaft go? A straight shaft would go through the middle of the cockpit (and the pilot).

    robin.

I'd modify the engine gearbox to drop the shaft as low as possible and see if I could run it under the pilot to the gearbox and prop control at the front, done right, it wouldn't be that much different from what's on the P-39/P-63.

Offline smurf

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2007, 02:22:51 am »
This might affect choice of engine - one with drive shaft set low re cylinders?

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2007, 03:00:52 am »
The location of the output driveshaft relative to the engine is amenable to change by changing the gearbox on the engine itself.  I daresay the drivehsaft exiting the engine on the Allisons in the P-39 and/or P-63 did not have the same relationship with the engine centerline that the propshaft on Allison versions for the P-38 did.

Offline smurf

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2007, 01:31:46 am »
Thanks for that.  Easier than changing the engine, though their might still be some benefit in that? Clearly a radial would need more "offset" than an inverted V in-line.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2007, 10:02:42 pm »
Personally, I'd not try an aircooled engine in that closely packed installation, not unless I had some very good forced cooling flow, or some very carefully located scoops to direct extra cooling air (the problem occurs today if you're not careful in designing the cooling for Lycoming's IO-720 flat-eight aircooled engine; the last pair of cylinders really needs an extra source of cooling air.

Offline smurf

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2007, 01:32:27 am »
Agree entirely.  I wasn't suggesting using a radial, just thinking that the less 'out-of-line' the shaft, the smaller any weight to compensate, a radial being the worst case. And I should have said a V, with the shaft low, not an inverted V.  How to cause confusion!

Offline snurg

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2007, 08:36:37 pm »
Just a thought, the drawing posted by jeniba shows jointed drive shafts from the twin engines passing either side of the cockpit.
If, as in flitzer's reconstruction, it was re-engined with a single engine, where would the driveshaft go? A straight shaft would go through the middle of the cockpit (and the pilot).

    robin.

I can think of at least two ways:  one is to use a gearbox to offset the shaft to the left or right, and run it alongside the pilot, or use a gearbox to split the engine's output between two shafts, routed as on the original.

It was a really gorgeous design, but if I were a fighter pilot, I think I'd want to see behind me a trifle better...

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2007, 05:48:10 am »
".. a gearbox to split the engine's output between two shafts, routed as on the original.2

Not a bad idea, I think, as this would alllow the use of a contra prop with a simple and light
gear in the nose. And with this relatively light design reducing the torque effects probably
would be quite useful during take-off and landing (remember the experiences with the later
marks of the Spitfire compared to the Seafire FR.47 with contraprops )
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2008, 09:11:13 am »
Bugatti fighter


I have been working on the scale drawings of the T67 V16 engine as published in http://www.bugattiaircraft.com with the intention of rebuilding the look that the mythical Bugatti 110P could have had.
As per my estimations the installation of the T67 in the fuselage of a standard 100P requires the following modifications:

-   The undercarriage wide track must be increased from 2960 to 3300 mm
-   Wingspan must increase from 8235 up to 8684 mm
-   Tailplane span must increase from 1410 to 1459 mm
-   Overall length must be augmented from 7700 to 8333 mm
-   Height should increase from 2122 up to 2188 mm
-   Propeller disc diameter must increase from 1698 to 1896 mm.
-   Vertical fin must increase from 994 up to 1038 mm length

The mod. 110P would have been an air superiority fighter equivalent to the Dewoitine D.520 T.
In my opinion it should have been armed with six MAC 34 A machine guns of 7.5 mm in the wings (similar installation to the D.520T) and a Hispano Suiza H.S. 404 gun of 20 mm with the ammunition stored in drums of 60 cartridges that the pilot could replace manually.

Given the decentralising policy of aeronautical production started by the French government in the last years of the decade of the thirties, it seems reasonable to assume that the Bugatti military version would have been propelled by an engine of the same firm and not by a Hispano Suiza HSY 45 which production had been kept for the Dewoitine D520 and Arsenal VG33.

I believe that the 110P would have a unique power shaft in central position located under the pilot seat http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic.1100.45.html
It should also have a flat windscreen to avoid the optical distortion when using the OPL RX39 gunsight http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic.1100.0/highlight.bugatti.html

Based on all these assumptions I will try to reconstruct the internal look that the 110P might have had and, if the whole thing looks convincing, I will also try to draw the external look.


Offline Pepe Rezende

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2008, 12:20:24 pm »
At my opinion, the fighter version would have a conventional cockpit, one 20mm shaft gun and two 7.5mm machine guns with contrarotating propellers.

Cheers

Pepe

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2008, 02:42:00 pm »
It is a physical impossibility to install a French cannon of 20 mm in a Bugatti 100P.
The Hispano Suiza H.S.7 measures 2100 mm long, the H.S.9, 2070 mm and the H.S. 404 measures 2500.
The distance between the propeller gearbox and the pilot seat back is just 1500 mm. The only solution is to install the seat more to the rear, in the position of the forward engine.
It is an argument in favor of a bigger airplane with a single engine. The field maintenance difficulties that a two engined airplane would have, must also be taken into consideration.
The unfortunate operational experience of the French squadrons equipped with Caudron 714 fighters in 1940 show us how difficult is to convert a racer into a warrior.
As for the flat windshield, it is just a must for the pilot fighters. It is a physical law.

Cheers,
Justo

Offline Pepe Rezende

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2008, 12:21:04 am »
It is a physical impossibility to install a French cannon of 20 mm in a Bugatti 100P.
The Hispano Suiza H.S.7 measures 2100 mm long, the H.S.9, 2070 mm and the H.S. 404 measures 2500.
The distance between the propeller gearbox and the pilot seat back is just 1500 mm. The only solution is to install the seat more to the rear, in the position of the forward engine.
It is an argument in favor of a bigger airplane with a single engine. The field maintenance difficulties that a two engined airplane would have, must also be taken into consideration.
The unfortunate operational experience of the French squadrons equipped with Caudron 714 fighters in 1940 show us how difficult is to convert a racer into a warrior.
As for the flat windshield, it is just a must for the pilot fighters. It is a physical law.

Cheers,
Justo


When I said a conventional cockpit I thought about a raised cockpit and a raised seat. Six wing guns seems excessive to me. Four guns could be more probable. The Caudron just needed a better engine. Equipped with an Isotta Fraschini engine showed a very nice performance.

Cheers

Pepe

Offline J.J.Horst

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2008, 06:11:26 am »
I just saw your efforts on the 110P, which of course remains a mistery, as it never came even close to a final design.

The only thing we in the BAA have, is a sketch by Ettore Bugatti, of a variant with two T50B 8-cylinder engines side by side, and a cannon in the nose. Of course the 110P will have to be slightly larger than the racer plane 100P, to make it a useable airplane. I will posty more on this forum in future.

For now, I have a question; Does anybody have photographs of the Hispano Suiza 12Z engine? There is a reported Bugatti car, with a 12 cylindre 4-valve engine of about 30 litres, and I try to find out what engine it has. The 12Z seems a possibility, but I don't have reference photogrpahs for that engine.

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2008, 10:25:37 am »
The attached drawings represent a possible solution for the 110P with a Bugatti T67 engine.
Such an engine could not be used in the 100P model but only in a slightly bigger plane.
The installation of the armament also requires some changes to the pilot position as well as an increase of the wingspan.

On the contrary, using the HS 12Z engine, much narrower than the Bugatti, the airframe of the 100P could be used withouth any other changes than bringing back the pilot seat to install the HS 404 cannon.
Perhaps reducing the number of machine guns to just four to compensate the lower power of the HS 12Z.......

Offline J.J.Horst

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2008, 01:28:06 pm »
The attached drawings represent a possible solution for the 110P with a Bugatti T67 engine.
Such an engine could not be used in the 100P model but only in a slightly bigger plane.
The installation of the armament also requires some changes to the pilot position as well as an increase of the wingspan.

On the contrary, using the HS 12Z engine, much narrower than the Bugatti, the airframe of the 100P could be used withouth any other changes than bringing back the pilot seat to install the HS 404 cannon.
Perhaps reducing the number of machine guns to just four to compensate the lower power of the HS 12Z.......
Brilliant drawings, I may even use these on the BugattiAircraft.com website, or in Pegasus, the BAA newsletter.

Do you have any photographs of the HS 12Z, especially the cylinder heads?? There is a car which has an engine, that I believe may be the 12Z, until now I was not able to confirm that.

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2008, 02:31:04 pm »
Hispano Suiza 12z

Offline J.J.Horst

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #62 on: August 29, 2008, 06:39:35 am »
Thanks for the pictures,

the request was to be able to identify the engine in a would-be Bugatti (not at all a real one, in fact) http://www.bugattipage.com/empereur.htm, of which I thought that the most likely engine would be the 12Z. Your photographs and drawings still make it difficult to make a 100% positive ID, take a look at the pictures, is this a HS 12Z engine??







The engine (and chassis) are covered in Bugatti and EB signs, but these were all added later.

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #63 on: August 29, 2008, 06:59:55 am »
Sorry
It is not an HS 12Z,the block shape is different...

Offline J.J.Horst

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2008, 01:09:00 am »
Any idea what engine this may be??

You're the aviation experts!

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2008, 03:05:50 am »
"Any idea what engine this may be??"

IIRC, a modified car engine was used.    ???
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline J.J.Horst

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2008, 12:05:26 am »
At 30 litres, I don't really think it was a car-engine. Aviation engine therefore, but which?

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2008, 12:21:29 am »
Quote
The Bugatti Type 41, better known as the Royale, is one of the most extreme luxury cars ever built. It was enormous, with a 4.3 m (169.3 in) wheelbase and 6.4 m (21 ft) overall length. It weighed approximately 3175 kg (7000 lb) and used a massive 12.7 L (12763 cc/778 in³) straight-8.

Wikipedia

Not sure if this is it, but there was a tendency for huge capacity car engines. Not impossible to increase capacity to 30 litres between two engines of 12.7 each? Just a thought.

Cheers
Peter
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 12:28:18 am by Flitzer »
"Madness is the normal condition, only interupted by spells of sanity"

Offline Flitzer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2008, 12:27:06 am »
Quote
The Type 50B of 1938
As the T50B engine was used in the Bugatti 100/110P airplane, we might call it an airplane engine! The two of them should be able to do some 900HP!

Just found this on www.bugattirevue.com

It seems the more you find the more confusing it gets ;) ;D.

Cheers
Peter
"Madness is the normal condition, only interupted by spells of sanity"

Offline J.J.Horst

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #69 on: September 02, 2008, 01:30:12 am »
Bugatti never built a V-engine, and only designed one: The V16 - T67 of 1939, which was never built.

There was a design for a U16, in 1923, but this was of much older design.

The two T50B engines in the Bugatti airplane are small straight-8 engines, 5 litre, dohc, with compressor. At 450 - 550 (maximum quoted power), a value of 100HP per litre!

So, the engine in the car shown can not be a Bugatti in any way, or a car engine for that matter, as Bugatti already built the biggest with the 12.7 litre T41 Royale (incidentally, in 1943 Bugatti also built a small series of cycle engines, of 12.7cc capacity, with dohc and compressor!)

So, anybody has any idea what this engine is? Or is it really an unrevealed part of Bugatti history (as the owner claims it to be)

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #70 on: September 02, 2008, 07:31:38 am »
It is an Avia V-30 Czech engine!

Offline burunduk

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #71 on: September 02, 2008, 09:29:59 am »
Avia Vr.36 was licenced-built HS 12.
Is V-30 also a variant of HS 12?

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2008, 09:42:21 am »
No ,is a Czech engine

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #73 on: September 02, 2008, 12:34:01 pm »
About the Hispano 12 series , you can find infos here :
http://www.hydroretro.net/etudegh/hispanosuiza.pdf

It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline burunduk

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2008, 04:10:23 am »
Justo Miranda, Jemiba, thank you.

And where did also the V-30 use?

Offline burunduk

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #75 on: September 03, 2008, 05:13:28 am »
Justo Miranda, Jemiba, thank you. I've read the research of Mr.Hartmann with big pleasure.

And where did also the V-30 use?

Offline blue max

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #76 on: January 12, 2010, 06:24:02 am »
good morning at all
a friend of mine send me this link with the design of a very strange french airplane
( fantasy ? or real? I dont' know)
http://img40.imageshack.us/i/bugatti110p.jpg/
thanks at all for every kind of informations
in vino veritas

Offline Dynoman

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #77 on: January 12, 2010, 06:36:20 am »
This is the Bugatti 110 of 1938. It was soley designed as a racing plane, but was never flown, as the war intervened. However, the French saved the aircraft and later sold it to the US EAA organization. The P110 was proposed, but never flew. See http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1100.0/highlight,bugatti+110.html

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 06:45:02 am by Dynoman »

Offline blue max

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #78 on: January 12, 2010, 06:46:40 am »
thank You
with the "camouflage" I changing for a dive bomber ( as some project of Savoia Marchetti in the last years of WWII)
do you know something about the range? speed ? 
in vino veritas

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #79 on: January 12, 2010, 11:08:59 am »
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline blue max

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #80 on: January 13, 2010, 01:54:50 am »
many thanks 6 pages of informations
in vino veritas

Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2010, 06:02:11 am »
Bugatti submitted and was approved for five patents in association with the Model 100. I've found three of them which are:

UK patent GB526460 (for the engine/drivetrain)
U.S. patent 2,268,183 (for the cooling method)
U.S. patent 2,279,615 (for the trailing edge flap system)

I am aware he received a patent for the V-tail arrangement but was unable to come up with it checking the European patent search engine (or the U.S. one). It was granted by France in April 1939. I don't know what the fifth patent was for. Bugatti sure put in a ton of patents!

Any ideas? Thanks!  :)

Offline Razorfish

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #82 on: September 16, 2010, 09:34:40 am »
Hi all. I'm a little late to the thread but I hope you don't mind a little story. Please set me straight if this Yank is out of line.

I build/fly RC planes and have a stack of papers a couple inches deep of ideas and sketches of mostly unusual aircraft. I just can't do "normal" planes. I came up with the plane below about a year ago. After building somebody said it looks like a Bugatti. I never heard of it and was thinking, what is this Bugatti he speaks of. I suspect I saw a picture and only my subconscious remembered. I'm definitely not the type to steal credit for something I didn't come up with. Next stage in my evil plan is to build a more scale Bugatti and not just similar.

Picture 1 & 2 are two different planes. 2nd flew really well. 5 out of 5 on straight tracking. Let's just say the 1st flew.
Picture 3 is not mine.
Last video is a scratch built sloper I found online.




« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 09:37:12 am by Razorfish »

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #83 on: September 17, 2011, 03:47:05 am »
The Bugatti Aircraft Association have a short obituary (September 13th) up on the news section of their website regarding the passing of Jean Sibille, the last surviving member of the Bugatti 110P project team, on September 2nd, 2011, at the age of 87. RIP.
To the Stars

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #84 on: September 19, 2011, 10:15:58 am »
With all the modification to make the Bugatti fit for military use,  I am reminded of the Bf-209 (the speed record aircraft) that went down the same road.  By the time you make the aircraft and engine robust enough to be useful, you're left with an aircraft with little or no advantage over off the shelf contemporary fighters. 

Kim Margosein

On the other hand, since the intent was to create a pursuit and/or a 'chasseur reconnaissense' fighter, the design team might have ended up going with an approach similar to the Japanese Zero, i.e. sacrificing armor and firepower in return for speed, maneuverability and range/endurance. Although they probably would have given the 110P self-sealing tanks as long as the weight penalty wasn't too severe.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 10:18:27 am by Grey Havoc »
To the Stars

Offline 2IDSGT

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #85 on: December 18, 2012, 02:15:57 am »
Interesting story. 
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/?p=1914 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Model_100 
http://iflyblog.com/2012/10/04/the-bugatti-100p-reviving-a-ghost/



Fortunately, someone is building a full-scale replica to fly.  I'll be curious to know if the design can really make it to 550 mph with fix-pitch props.  Lots of pictures on the project's Facebook page.   https://www.facebook.com/TheBugatti100pProject





« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 02:48:59 am by 2IDSGT »

Offline 2IDSGT

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #86 on: December 18, 2012, 02:47:39 am »
Dang, did a search and everything.

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #87 on: December 18, 2012, 04:29:10 am »
Don't worry, it isn't often that easy ! The title of the older thread  was "Bugatti 110 fighter", but it mainly
dealt with the actually built 100.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline lark

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #88 on: December 18, 2012, 12:30:15 pm »
There's a new book in the making about the Bugatti 100P.
'The Bugatti 100P Record Plane'
 Created by Etore Bugatti and Louis de Monge.

written by Jaap Horst-240pp
Due for publishing Jan. 2013 by Lanasta in the Netherlands.

Perhaps the definitive history about this beauty..

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #89 on: December 18, 2012, 12:46:29 pm »
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline 2IDSGT

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #90 on: December 18, 2012, 11:23:00 pm »
Video on the flying replica build.


Offline robunos

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #91 on: February 05, 2013, 01:24:40 pm »
There's a nice article here :-

http://oldmachinepress.wordpress.com/2012/11/01/bugatti-model-100p-racer/

with some pictures of the restored airframe.

cheers,
            Robin.

Where ARE the Daleks when you need them......

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #92 on: April 11, 2013, 02:56:29 am »
An appeal has been made for crowd-funding a real-life flying Bugatti 100P.

More details here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19041.0

Offline Charlesferdinand

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #93 on: December 10, 2013, 01:56:09 am »
Apparently, there has been a roll out of the plane recently. I only saw a photo and a short notice in a French aviation magazine, does anyone know more?
They say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #94 on: December 10, 2013, 02:48:56 am »
It's probably the one built by this team : http://bugatti100p.com/
About the roll-out, you can find out here, too : http://www.visitoshkosh.com/event/eaa-wright-brothers-memorial-banquet-2/
(".. and the airplane made its initial roll-out on October 25")
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline perttime

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #95 on: December 14, 2013, 07:02:06 am »
They've been updating their Facebook page with latest news, pretty frequently:
https://www.facebook.com/TheBugatti100pProject

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #96 on: December 28, 2013, 01:58:30 pm »
As part of the revived interest in the Bugatti projects, a whole new comic book entitled Firehawks, featuring Bugatti fighters, has made its debut in the online Aces Weekly magazine, created by David Lloyd, of V for Vendetta fame. Firehawks is written and illustrated by no less than veteran Marvel Comics artist Herb Trimpe, who made a name for himself by illustrating over 100 issues of The Incredible Hulk and created graphically such famous characters as Wolverine and Captain Britain (he also did the G.I. Joe, Godzilla, Transformers and Shogun Warriors comics for Marvel, among many others).

Firehawks seems to be fun. However, the coloring job seems to be awful! Anyway, you can more info on the Aces Weekly website.

Original black and white version of the story (much better I think) can be purchased from Jaap Horst in the Netherlands.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 02:00:39 pm by Stargazer2006 »

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #97 on: December 30, 2013, 07:07:07 am »
A marvelous Bugatti 100P cutaway view by Hubert Cance, published in AFM No. 2:

Offline kagyman

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #98 on: March 27, 2014, 12:29:14 pm »
This months Octane Magazine (May 2014) has an article on the replica.

Offline MaxLegroom

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2015, 06:45:48 pm »
This brought back some memories for me.  One of my setups for Flight Simulator 2004 included the Bugatti 100 racer, and scenery to go with it.  It was incredible.  Seems I've found it again"  http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?67800-Bugatti-Adventures

Offline Loren

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Bugatti 100P to fly
« Reply #100 on: August 09, 2015, 07:52:29 pm »
Am not sure where this belongs. A 1939 Bugatti 100P is getting ready for it's maiden flight.


http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/8/9118119/bugatti-100p-reve-blue-kickstarter-first-flight

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein

Brown Flight 81-29: Rudis, Inconditus quod Amicabiliter Inconveniens

Offline Creative

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #101 on: August 19, 2015, 05:26:53 pm »
First Flight!

https://www.facebook.com/TheBugatti100pProject/photos/a.265365623540584.60202.261574317253048/843354212408386/?type=1

Quote
In keeping with our Full-Disclosure policy, here is my summation of our first flight experience:
 
We intended this flight to be limited to a short hop down the runway to check power required/power available and to check control responsiveness in all three axes. Preflight preparation and before-takeoff checks were normal. Takeoff was normal and at a predetermined reduced power (80%) setting; takeoff roll was 3000 feet and I became airborne at 90 knots. I climbed to 100 AGL to check power and control responsiveness. The plane responded as expected to all power changes and control inputs. Maximum airspeed was 110 knots.
 
I reduced power for landing but the airplane floated much more than we anticipated. I landed further down the runway than planned but with sufficient distance to stop the plane. Unfortunately, I lost the right brake and the airplane departed the left side of the runway at slow speed. Due to heavy rains the night before, the ground was soft and the airplane tipped upward on its nose, damaging the spinner and both props.
 
Such is the nature of flight testing a new design. The relevant news is we successfully flew the Bugatti 100P for the first time. The plane flew beautifully.
 
We’ll share more photos, video, and data with you in the coming days.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #102 on: August 20, 2015, 09:40:15 am »
Fantastic news!! Hope they repair it soon.

Offline Creative

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Re: Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects
« Reply #103 on: August 20, 2015, 11:14:13 pm »
Video of first flight and landing aftermath on their facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/TheBugatti100pProject/videos/843683509042123/