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Author Topic: Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 and EMD F-23  (Read 413176 times)

Offline Matej

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Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 and EMD F-23
« on: November 26, 2006, 08:27:05 am »
Image removed - modified drawing in the next posts.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 04:44:55 pm by Matej »

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Offline flateric

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Re: Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 and EMD F-23
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2006, 08:36:54 am »
Fantastic stuff, Mato! Thanks zillion, zillion times!!!
I have some add-ons, but will wait with them.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2006, 08:38:29 am by flateric »
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stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline ChuckAnderson

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Re: Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 and EMD F-23
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2006, 09:30:10 am »
Hi Matej!

Like flateric, I like the F-23 and I wish it had entered production.  I've always thought that the F-23's situation could be analogous to that of the F-16/F-17 situation.

As we know, in the competition between the F-16 and the F-17, the F-16 won the contract and the F-17 was pushed into the background until it was picked-up by the USN as the F-18.

Like the F-17 that was picked-up later as the F-18, it's too bad that the F-23 couldn't be picked-up later as the.....F-23.


Chuck

Offline Matej

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Re: Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 and EMD F-23
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2006, 09:36:32 am »
Well, small chance as F/B-23 still lives.

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Offline Archibald

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Re: Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 and EMD F-23
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2006, 09:49:01 am »
Hmmm.. don't want to start a stupid, Key-publishing like boring discussion, but wouldn't the F-23  been a better choice for the USN than the Superbug ?
thanks for the 3-view, very interesting...
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Offline flateric

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Re: Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 and EMD F-23
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2006, 10:56:17 am »
Folks, please stop talks about why YF-23 lost, what a great AF fighter it would be and what a great Navy fighter it could be - I'm pretty sceptic about later estimate.

Remarks to Mato -
a). In a plan view, all intake edge lines are straight, no these curved outer lips.
b). F-23A would have the same nozzles with top covergent/divergent flaps, as YF-, just trenches' tiles would be changed in favor of more light, flexible insulation pattern, and configuration of serrated boattail in planview would be changed to improve weight, IR and stealth characteristics (later shown right).
« Last Edit: November 26, 2006, 11:10:52 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Ogami musashi

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Re: Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 and EMD F-23
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2006, 01:13:38 pm »
I still try to figurate the new shape of the engines fairings.

Did they were make come closer to each other?
How their size was reduced? including in height?

It seems from Matej and koku fan drawing that the aft part of the fuselage on the upperwing was lenghtened, right?

Online elmayerle

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Re: Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 and EMD F-23
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2006, 02:01:24 am »
These inlets appear to be a blend of aerodynamics from the prototype and some of the work that eventually showed in in the X-35 and F-35 inlets.

As for why the YF-23 lost the competition, the outbrief after the decision was pretty clear that Northrop's then management had lost the trust and confidence of USAF leadership (IMHO, it was a desevered loss).

Offline flateric

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Re: Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 and EMD F-23
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2006, 03:40:44 am »
Adding to El opinion about loosing the competition - Bill Sweetman describes system of choosing of competitors as taking two radically different designs (i.e. YF-16/YF-17, YF-22/YF-23, X-35/X-32) even if counterpart wasn't scored second in preliminary, 'paper' RFP stage contest (for example, Boeing LWF was scored second to GD's, but USAF choose Northrop's two-engined design as contender to GD LWF as this a/c was a totally different approach on how LWF should look like). You can note striking similarites between Boeing and Northrop ATF designs (except, of course, this weird fuselage mouth inlet).
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

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Re: Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 and EMD F-23
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2006, 03:43:31 am »
I still try to figurate the new shape of the engines fairings.

Did they were make come closer to each other?
How their size was reduced? including in height?

It seems from Matej and koku fan drawing that the aft part of the fuselage on the upperwing was lenghtened, right?

You can easily compare both variants overlaying each other in any CAD program (as sizes are known). In common, you are right.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Matej

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Re: Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 and EMD F-23
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2006, 04:49:11 am »
Fixed - intake configuration suggestions
« Last Edit: November 28, 2006, 05:21:08 pm by flateric »

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Offline pometablava

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Re: Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 and EMD F-23
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2006, 05:27:25 am »
In my opinion this is one of the most beautiful fighter aircraft ever designed ::)

Thanks for the drawing Matej!

Offline Matej

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Re: Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 and EMD F-23
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2006, 09:32:02 am »
Not an impartial person but....

"I worked at Pratt & Whitney Aircraft during the development period of the ATF prototypes in R&D on the ATF engine program so I really paid close attention to the ATF flyoff when it happened.
The engines selected was Pratt & Whitney F-119-PWA-100 NOT the GE-120. GE was nearly three months late getting their prototype dual cycle engine working. In fact the GE prototype powered flight item was supposed to be the first to fly but due to GE's problems the PWA prortotype powered item flew first. The GE engine delivered more thrust BUT was far more thirsty and had a much larger thermal footprint. The PWA protype only needed a slight fan Dia. increase to make up the thrust difference. The GE needed far more work to be a viable production engine and had a higher cost. Winner of ATF engine contract PWA!"

John former Dept 7035 Fabrication specialites PWA Rocky Hill, Ct. Facility 1987-1992

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Offline Matej

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Re: Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 and EMD F-23
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2006, 12:57:33 pm »
Only eight days and you can legaly build your own copy of YF-23  :D

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Offline consealed

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Re: Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 and EMD F-23
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2006, 08:36:35 pm »
two questions for Matej:
1) Why use zigzag wing on backside
You should have known the dentate wing edge would destroy a capability of low detection from radar

2) Why use 3 dimentions shockwave half cone airintake?
The cone specially for this half cone airintake will cause an unsymmetrical air flow while the aircraft do any  high attacking angle of maneuver.
The key to any great story not is who or what, when or where, but why